Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works

[Jim Parker]

Correct, as long as you do not have a Pauline type calling to ministry on your life, you are not responsible for anyone hearing the gospel and being saved.

Here's some of what Jesus told us:
Mat 5:14 You are the light of the world.
Mat 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.

Mat 5:43-48 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor[fn] and hate your enemy.’ “But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

Every Christian does have a calling to preach the Gospel even if it just to be a living demonstration f the mercy and love of God without oral preaching or teaching.

"Preach the Gospel at all times; if necessary, use words." St Francis of Assisi

 

[atpollard]

Don't get me wrong. I respect traditional Calvinistic OSAS. At least they retain the necessity for a genuine faith to be saved. The problem I have with it is what the Catholics find wrong with it--you can never be sure of your salvation because there is always tomorrow's potential failure of faith to show that what you thought was saving faith today proved not to be that at all. And that's supposed to be the doctrine of surety and security? Really?

Non-OSAS is the doctrine of security: As long as you believe in Christ--despite even your 7x70 relationship with Him (Matthew 18:21-22)--you are saved. Simple. Yet, so many people resist such a simple, and reasonable, and Biblical doctrine.

So traditional Calvinistic OSAS: retains "the necessity for a genuine faith to be saved", but "you can never be sure of your salvation because there is always tomorrow's potential failure of faith to show that what you thought was saving faith today proved not to be that at all".

Non-OSAS is the doctrine of security: "As long as you believe in Christ ... you are saved."

For a believer living right this moment, both forms of security look exactly the same. I believe in Christ, I trust in Christ, therefore, I belong to Christ and I am saved by Christ. It is for this reason that I do not get too worked up if someone believes in the Non-OSAS view presented above. However, whatever your BELIEF, the risk for the believer is exactly the same. You could walk away from Jesus tomorrow (many who profess Christ eventually do). If Traditional Calvinistic OSAS is TRUE, then your walking away proves that "you were never really of us" [1 John 2:19]. If Non-OSAS is TRUE, then your walking away proves that you no longer believe and are no longer saved. Whichever view is TRUE, the believer living today faces the exact same danger of walking away tomorrow. In either case, what you thought today was a faith that would carry you all the way to Heaven, could be proven tomorrow to have been not up to the task.

The Bible says that tomorrow is not promised to us, so we must live in today. For the Believer who holds to the Non-OSAS security, you have the assurance that you believe at this moment and your conviction that you are resolved to continue to hold on to the Christ who first loved you. I find it hard to 'hate' someone for believing that. For the believer who holds onto the traditional Calvinist OSAS security, we have the assurance that we believe at this moment and are convinced that this is because our 'faith', our ability to believe is a gift from God - only He gave it and only He can take it back. I am forever surprised by how many people hate our trust and reverence for the Soverignty of God.

For both the OSAS (traditional Calvinist) and Non-OSAS believer, the thought of letting go of Christ and just seeing what would happen is anathema. Anyone who really doesn't care whether they follow Jesus or not is not any type of believer (OSAS or Non-OSAS) [John 10:26-27]. The Non-OSAS believer thinks that if he, hypothetically, were to let go of Jesus, that he would discover that the believer had been holding on to his belief, thus safeguarding his salvation. Perhaps he is right. Perhaps he would. I can only speak for me and my beliefs and my experiences. I do not think that I laid hold of the Christ, but that He laid hold of me. I keenly remember the day I was prepared to walk away from Christ, and He intervened to forbid it. I tried and failed to walk away. Because of my personal experiences, I must believe that if a believer were to, hypothetically, let go of Jesus, then that believer would discover that it was, in fact, Jesus who was tightly holding on to you. [John 6:44]

 

[atpollard]

Every Christian does have a calling to preach the Gospel even if it just to be a living demonstration f the mercy and love of God without oral preaching or teaching.

Where does either of those include the Gospel?

 

[Jim Parker]

Where does either of those include the Gospel?

Living the Gospel, by definition, includes the Gospel.
God's mercy, IS the Gospel.

 

[Gregg T]

So traditional Calvinistic OSAS: retains "the necessity for a genuine faith to be saved", but "you can never be sure of your salvation because there is always tomorrow's potential failure of faith to show that what you thought was saving faith today proved not to be that at all".

Non-OSAS is the doctrine of security: "As long as you believe in Christ ... you are saved."

For a believer living right this moment, both forms of security look exactly the same. I believe in Christ, I trust in Christ, therefore, I belong to Christ and I am saved by Christ. It is for this reason that I do not get too worked up if someone believes in the Non-OSAS view presented above. However, whatever your BELIEF, the risk for the believer is exactly the same. You could walk away from Jesus tomorrow (many who profess Christ eventually do). If Traditional Calvinistic OSAS is TRUE, then your walking away proves that "you were never really of us" [1 John 2:19]. If Non-OSAS is TRUE, then your walking away proves that you no longer believe and are no longer saved. Whichever view is TRUE, the believer living today faces the exact same danger of walking away tomorrow. In either case, what you thought today was a faith that would carry you all the way to Heaven, could be proven tomorrow to have been not up to the task.

The Bible says that tomorrow is not promised to us, so we must live in today. For the Believer who holds to the Non-OSAS security, you have the assurance that you believe at this moment and your conviction that you are resolved to continue to hold on to the Christ who first loved you. I find it hard to 'hate' someone for believing that. For the believer who holds onto the traditional Calvinist OSAS security, we have the assurance that we believe at this moment and are convinced that this is because our 'faith', our ability to believe is a gift from God - only He gave it and only He can take it back. I am forever surprised by how many people hate our trust and reverence for the Soverignty of God.

For both the OSAS (traditional Calvinist) and Non-OSAS believer, the thought of letting go of Christ and just seeing what would happen is anathema. Anyone who really doesn't care whether they follow Jesus or not is not any type of believer (OSAS or Non-OSAS) [John 10:26-27]. The Non-OSAS believer thinks that if he, hypothetically, were to let go of Jesus, that he would discover that the believer had been holding on to his belief, thus safeguarding his salvation. Perhaps he is right. Perhaps he would. I can only speak for me and my beliefs and my experiences. I do not think that I laid hold of the Christ, but that He laid hold of me. I keenly remember the day I was prepared to walk away from Christ, and He intervened to forbid it. I tried and failed to walk away. Because of my personal experiences, I must believe that if a believer were to, hypothetically, let go of Jesus, then that believer would discover that it was, in fact, Jesus who was tightly holding on to you. [John 6:44]

Its what resides underneath the outward presentation of Calvinism that is hated; that Calvinism portrays God as a benevolent / malevolent god, a soveriegn puppet master, one who authors and decrees acts of sin, one who is willing that none perish but decrees from eternity that many perish, one that says whoever believes while secretely meaning only the elect can and will believe, one who loves all men while actially hating some men from eternity. And then there is the plethora of calvinism's unwarrented adjectives which reinforce its redefinition of Scripture: total depravity, unconditional election, limited atonement, irresistible grace, preserved saints. A calvinist believes because he was decreed to believe, not because he himself chose to believe. What is lovable about calvinism when it is unveiled.

 

[atpollard]

Living the Gospel, by definition, includes the Gospel.
God's mercy, IS the Gospel.

Don't you shake your head at me young man!

You offered these Scriptures:

Here's some of what Jesus told us:
Mat 5:14 You are the light of the world.
Mat 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.

Mat 5:43-48 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor[fn] and hate your enemy.’ “But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

As some sort of support for this statement:

Every Christian does have a calling to preach the Gospel ...

Matthew 5:14,16 appears to be about living a life that brings glory to God (that men would see good works and glorify God is not the Gospel).

Matthew 5:43-48 is a command to live a life more full of love than the sinful people of a fallen world (living a life of love is not the Gospel).

So I repeat my question:

Where does either of those include the Gospel?

 

[atpollard]

Its what resides underneath the outward presentation of Calvinism that is hated; that Calvinism portrays God as a benevolent / malevolent god, a soveriegn puppet master, one who authors and decrees acts of sin, one who is willing that none perish but decrees from eternity that many perish, one that says whoever believes while secretely meaning only the elect can and will believe, one who loves all men while actially hating some men from eternity. And then there is the plethora of calvinism's unwarrented adjectives which reinforce its redefinition of Scripture: total depravity, unconditional election, limited atonement, irresistible grace, preserved saints. A calvinist believes because he was decreed to believe, not because he himself chose to believe. What is lovable about calvinism when it is unveiled.

That sounds terrible!

I am sure glad that that isn't what Calvinism actually teaches.

Calvinism teaches that John 6:44 (“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.") is actually true.

"No one can come to Me" = total depravity = the inability to save ourselves
"the Father who sent Me draws him" = irresistable grace = God draws us to Jesus
"I will raise him up on the last day." = perseverance of the saints = God will finish what he starts.

We don't believe it because we just like it better, we believe it because that is what the Scriptire says. If you have a problem with it, I suggest taking your complaints to the author. ;)

 

[Jim Parker]

Tiptoeing through the TULIP 1
1) Total depravity: The doctrine of total depravity (also called "total inability") asserts that, as a consequence of the fall of humanity into sin, every person born into the world is enslaved to the service of sin. People are not by nature inclined to love God with their whole heart, mind, or strength, but rather all are inclined to serve their own interests over those of their neighbor and to reject the rule of God. Thus, all people by their own faculties are morally unable to choose to follow God and be saved because they are unwilling to do so out of the necessity of their own natures. (The term "total" in this context refers to sin affecting every part of a person, not that every person is as evil as possible.)
The statement that all people are unable to choose to follow God is a denial of man’s free will. Does the Bible teach that man has no free will?

DT 30:19 This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live

JOS 24:15 But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD."

PR 8:10 Choose my instruction instead of silver, knowledge rather than choice gold,

ISA 56:4 For this is what the LORD says: "To the eunuchs who keep my Sabbaths, who choose what pleases me and hold fast to my covenant--

PS 34:11 Come, my children, listen to me; I will teach you the fear of the LORD. 12 Whoever of you loves life and desires to see many good days, 13 keep your tongue from evil and your lips from speaking lies. 14 Turn from evil and do good; seek peace and pursue it.

EZE 3:27 But when I speak to you, I will open your mouth and you shall say to them, `This is what the Sovereign LORD says.' Whoever will listen let him listen, and whoever will refuse let him refuse; for they are a rebellious house.

MK 16:15 He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

JN 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

JN 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."

JN 5:24 "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

REV 3:20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me.

REV 22:17 The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life.

The assumption that is the basis of all these (and more) verses is that man has the freedom to make a choice. Man has free will. The notion that man is incapable of making such a choice is not compatible with the teaching of scripture.

God’s earnest encouragement to choose to serve Him permeates the scriptures. The notion that all mankind is incapable of doing so, that all mankind is “hard wired” to oppose God contradicts the teaching of Scripture.

ISA 1:18 "Come now, let us reason together," says the LORD. "Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool.

ISA 1:19 If you are willing and obedient, you will eat the best from the land;

ISA 1:20 but if you resist and rebel, you will be devoured by the sword." For the mouth of the LORD has spoken.

This is one of many examples in scripture of how God deals with man; by giving man the freedom to make a choice. Total depravity resulting in having no free will is not Biblical.

 

[Jim Parker]

Tiptoeing through the TULIP 2
Unconditional election - The doctrine of unconditional election asserts that God's choice from eternity of those whom he will bring to himself is not based on foreseen virtue, merit, or faith in those people. Rather, it is unconditionally grounded in God's mercy alone.

This doctrine is damning of "TULIP" for what is not stated but what is logically necessary.
If salvation is unconditionally grounded in God’s mercy alone, and He does not extend that mercy to all mankind, then damnation is unconditionally grounded in God’s withholding of mercy alone. And that withholding is for no reason apparent to man.

“Proof texts”:
RO 9:15-18 "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion. 16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden."

and

RO 9:22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath--prepared for destruction?

What these verses are supposed to make explicitly clear is that God does not reveal why He elects some for salvation and others for damnation. It’s His choice and we don’t have a need to know. But the only people that the Bible says were doomed for destruction are Judas Iscariot and “the man of lawlessness.”

To the rest of mankind the scripture says, “...whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

It also is supposed to make perfectly clear that salvation does not depend on anything that man does. It’s 100% God’s choice and nothing we do can make a difference. You are either elected for eternal life or elected for eternal damnation.

The logical conclusion to the teaching of Unconditional Election is that the most devout person, having the most virtue, merit and faith ever found among mankind could be damned to hell because God withheld His mercy from him and the most henious and despicable sinner could be saved because God extended His mercy to him.

But that is not how scripture describes the manner in which God chooses whom he will save and who is condemned.

A few verses after the above “proof texts” Paul, continuing his teaching says:

RO 10:11 As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile--the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

Also, if nothing man can do makes any difference then why does God say the following?
ISA 65:2 All day long I have held out my hands to an obstinate people, who walk in ways not good, pursuing their own imaginations--

MT 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.

Thus God actively attempts to convince people to repent so that they may be saved from the consequences of their sins even when He knows that they are not willing. He patiently attempts to convince them to repent.

AC 17:26 From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. 27 God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us.

The Lord acts to cause men to seek him. Why would He do that if He had already decided who would live and who would die? Why would he bother with man at all since nothing they might do would have any influence on whether they would live or die? If God does not respond to man’s plea for salvation then why did Paul tell the men of Athens that God wants men to seek him? Why would God want men to seek Him if it would make no difference? What kind of God acts like that? Surely not a God who is merciful and loving and kind and desires that none should perish but that all would be saved. Not the God of scripture.

RO 10: 9 … if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11 As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile--the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

“Unconditional Election” proposes that calling on the name of the Lord, trusting in the Lord, and believing in the Lord are all useless exercises. If God has not “elected” you then calling on Him or trusting Him or believing in Him won’t make any difference; you are going to hell.

No wonder so many people hate such a God and choose atheism or agnosticism rather than believing that such a monster, who teases men with promises of salvation if they will just call upon Him and then says “Just kidding! Go to hell!”, could be God.

How could anyone love a God from whom you needed to be saved and from whom there was no possibility salvation if you were not one of His pre-elected pets?

Who could love a God who says, “Love me or I’ll kill you! And I just might kill you anyway!”?

Unconditional Election is a doctrine that describes a malevolent, capricious God not the God of loving kindness whose mercy is new every morning and whose compassion is as great as the heavens and who stated in so many words that it is his will that none should perish but that everyone should come to repentance. That coming to repentance, for which God patiently waits, is an example of man exercising his free will to repent.

There is no mercy in a god who refuses to consider man’s pleas for salvation. The god of TULIP is not the God of the Bible

 

[Jim Parker]

Tiptoeing through the TULIP 3
Limited atonement

Also called "particular redemption" or "definite atonement", the doctrine of limited atonement is the teaching that Jesus' substitutionary atonement was definite and certain in its design and accomplishment. The doctrine is driven by the concept of the sovereignty of God in salvation and the Calvinistic understanding of the nature of the atonement. Namely, Calvinists view the atonement as a penal substitution (that is, Jesus was punished in the place of sinners), and since, Calvinists argue, it would be unjust for God to pay the penalty for some people's sins and then still condemn them for those sins, all those whose sins were atoned for must necessarily be saved.


Moreover, since in this scheme God knows precisely who the elect are and since only the elect will be saved, there is no requirement that Christ atone for sins in general, only for those of the elect. Calvinists do not believe, however, that the atonement is limited in its value or power (in other words, God could have elected everyone and used it to atone for them all), but rather that the atonement is limited in the sense that it is designed for some and not all. Hence, Calvinists hold that the atonement is sufficient for all and efficient for the elect.

God’s word addresses this Calvinist double-talk as follows:

RO 5:18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.

Thus, justification is available to all men.

How does this justification become “effective” for any particular person?

RO 10: 9 … if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11 As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile--the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

Notice the word “if” at the beginning of the quotation. The word “if” introduces a conditional circumstance. It relates to the reader/hearer that there is a potential outcome if the condition is met and it contains the understanding that the potential outcome will not be realized if the condition is not met.

In this case:

IF a person confesses with his mouth that Jesus is Lord, and

IF a person believes in his heart that God raised him from the dead

THEN (the conditions having been met) the person will be saved.

This statement is followed by two more conditional statements:

(1) Anyone who trusts in the Lord will never be put to shame and

(2) Everyone who calls upon the Lord will be saved.

So if either condition is met (trust in the Lord or call upon the Lord) the person will be saved.

Take note of the words “anyone” and “everyone.” Also note that it does not say “any elect person who trusts in the Lord” or “every elect person who calls upon the Lord.” The Bible’s salvation is “effective” to all mankind.

JN 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

The word “whoever” tells us that eternal life is available to everyone who believes; not an “elect” group whom God has chosen to save. Salvation is open to everyone because the atonement is effective to everyone.

According to the doctrine of Limited Atonement; “Calvinists hold that the atonement is sufficient for all and efficient for the elect.”

This places the responsibility for who is saved and who is not in God’s hands because Calvinism decrees that man has no free will. Therefore, God chooses some for salvation and leaves the rest for damnation. It is 100% God’s choice. Man can do nothing to accept or reject God’s gracious gift of salvation because God has all ready determined whom He will save and whom He will let perish.

If forgiveness of sin and salvation are totally in God’s hands and

If man’s response to God’s gracious gift has no bearing on man’s eternal life and

If all have sinned and stand condemned to death and

God saves some and not others based on nothing that man can discern then

Such a God is unjust and unmerciful; he is a tyrant and a monster.

The good news is that such a God is not found in the Bible. The God Who revealed Himself in scripture gives everyone many chances to be saved.

2PE 3:9 The Lord … is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

So Peter tells us that it is God’s desire that EVERYONE come to repentance. If, as the Calvinists insist, God’s will is irresistible then why doesn’t EVERYONE get saved?

Answer: God’s will is not irresistible when it comes to restoring the relationship with Him that was broken by our sin. He allows man to exercise his free will and to choose to mend that relationship and live.

Because Calvinists deny free will it is necessary that the atonement be limited to the elect. Otherwise, their theology wouldn’t make sense. So the notion that the atonement was not “effective” for those who weren’t “elected” was concocted in order to make the system work. It makes sense if you are content to deny that man was created in God’s image having free will and you ignore the many times in the Bible where people are described as having the capacity to choose.

As in:

JOS 24:15 But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD."

That sounds a whole like you get to “elect” yourself.

 

[Jim Parker]

Tiptoeing through TULIP 4
Irresistible Grace

The doctrine of irresistible grace (also called "efficacious grace") asserts that the saving grace of God is effectually applied to those whom he has determined to save (that is, the elect) and, in God's timing, overcomes their resistance to obeying the call of the gospel, bringing them to a saving faith.


The doctrine does not hold that every influence of God's Holy Spirit cannot be resisted, but that the Holy Spirit is able to overcome all resistance and make his influence irresistible and effective. Thus, when God sovereignly purposes to save someone, that individual certainly will be saved.

Again, for this doctrine to make sense, it is necessary that man have no free will and that God makes sovereign choices that are contrary to His revealed desire that all mankind be saved and that whoever believes has eternal life.

This teaching assumes the previous teachings that man is totally depraved and has absolutely no capacity or ability to even consider the possibility of repenting and being saved from God Who has decided to kill him. It also assumes that God has only chosen a portion of mankind to be saved and the blood of Jesus is of no benefit to those He has decided to kill.

This teaching requires that we believe that God participates in useless and pointless behavior as stated in the scriptures.

ISA 65:2 All day long I have held out my hands to an obstinate people, who walk in ways not good, pursuing their own imaginations--

Why would God bother? If He knows who He “elected” and who He did not then why hold out His hands to them all day long? Did He forget who He elected? Was he just kidding?

How about the following?

ISA 1:18 "Come now, let us reason together," says the LORD. "Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool.
19 If you are willing and obedient, you will eat the best from the land;
20 but if you resist and rebel, you will be devoured by the sword." For the mouth of the LORD has spoken.

Why would God reason with someone for whom He knows reason is impossible?

Why would God encourage a person to choose between being willing and obedient or resisting and rebellious when the man has absolutely no ability to do anything but what God has programmed him to do? He has no free will to choose either obedience or rebellion.

Is this an example of, divine, sick humor?

Or has God given us the capacity to choose?

 

[Jim Parker]

Tiptoeing throut the TULIP 5

Perseverance of the saints

Perseverance (or preservation) of the saints is also known as "eternal security." The doctrine asserts that, since God is sovereign and his will cannot be frustrated by humans or anything else, those whom God has called into communion with himself will continue in faith until the end. Those who apparently fall away either never had true faith to begin with or will return.

As with all of the doctrines described by “TULIP,” it is based on the heretical doctrine that man has no free will and cannot choose to repent and be reconciled to God and neither can he refuse to accept God’s gracious gift of eternal life if God "elects" him for salvation.

The Biblical teaching is otherwise. While nothing can force man to be separated from God, man can turn away from that relationship. The following verses refute the false notion that “saved” person has no ability to turn away from God and life and back to sin and death.

COL 1:21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. 22 But now HE HAS RECONCILED YOU BY CHRIST'S PHYSICAL BODY THROUGH DEATH TO PRESENT YOU HOLY IN HIS SIGHT, WITHOUT BLEMISH AND FREE FROM ACCUSATION-- 23 IF YOU CONTINUE IN YOUR FAITH, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.

HEB 3:12 See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. 14 WE HAVE COME TO SHARE IN CHRIST IF WE HOLD FIRMLY TILL THE END THE CONFIDENCE WE HAD AT FIRST.

HEB 6:4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6 IF THEY FALL AWAY, to be brought back to repentance,

2PE 1:5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins…..10 Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to MAKE YOUR calling and ELECTION SURE. For IF you do these things, you will never fall,

2PE 2: 20 IF THEY HAVE ESCAPED THE CORRUPTION OF THE WORLD BY KNOWING OUR LORD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST AND ARE AGAIN ENTANGLED IN IT AND OVERCOME, THEY ARE WORSE OFF AT THE END THAN THEY WERE AT THE BEGINNING. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.

EZE 18:24 "But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.”

The scripture also teaches that God will reject a “saved” person if he is not obedient.

JN 15:1 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit,

5 "I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 IF ANYONE DOES NOT REMAIN IN ME, HE IS LIKE A BRANCH THAT IS THROWN AWAY AND WITHERS; SUCH BRANCHES ARE PICKED UP, THROWN INTO THE FIRE AND BURNED.

There are, of course, verses which appear to support the notion of the “preservation of the saints.” But it is necessary to look at all the scriptures which address the issue. The ones posted above refute the teaching. Preservation cannot be a valid doctrine if it is directly refuted by scripture.

Please note that the circular reasoning which proposes that “falling away” is proof that they were never really saved. It is impossible to “fall away” unless you have been in a place from which you could fall; in this case, that “place is called “being saved.”

 

[Nathan]

Jim Parker

Did you really type all those responses in 12 mins or did you copy and paste them?

 

[reba]

closed for moderator review

 

[Mike]

Re-opening with the expectation of better behavior.

 

[Jim Parker]

Jim Parker

Did you really type all those responses in 12 mins or did you copy and paste them?

I wrote them a couple of years ago and saved them.

 

[Jim Parker]

Don't you shake your head at me young man!
You offered these Scriptures:
As some sort of support for this statement:
Matthew 5:14,16 appears to be about living a life that brings glory to God (that men would see good works and glorify God is not the Gospel).
Matthew 5:43-48 is a command to live a life more full of love than the sinful people of a fallen world (living a life of love is not the Gospel).
So I repeat my question:"Where does either of those include the Gospel?"

They include the Gospel by being a demonstration of the teachings of scripture.
No, they are not the oral preaching of the specific words but the demonstration of God's grace and love toward mankind.
Not everyone is given the gift of evangelism but we are all given the command to love one another, our neighbors and our enemies.
Love is the basic precept of the Gospel.
"God so loved the world..." and "....love is the fulfillment of the law."
The purpose of the preaching of the Gospel is to bring people to repentance.
That's what happens when someone lets his "light so shine before men that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven."

 

[Gregg T]

I said:

Its what resides underneath the outward presentation of Calvinism that is hated . . . What is lovable about calvinism when it is unveiled.

Quoting Jn 6:44 in defense of Calvinism, atpollard said:

"No one can come to Me" = total depravity = the inability to save ourselves
"the Father who sent Me draws him" = irresistable grace = God draws us to Jesus
"I will raise him up on the last day." = perseverance of the saints = God will finish what he starts.

The Calvinist understanding beneath those statements I've inserted in (red),
My comments in (blue):

1. "No one (whom God either a. determined / willed not to come, or b. those made certain to come by decree) can come to Me" = total (meaning both 100% and partially, depending on the strength of the counter argument) depravity (inability to exercise his wiill or to reason, is not able to respond to God's call) = the inability to save ourselves (redefinition of Tulip's "T" and moving the goalposts; point 1 of TULIP is about man's ability to respond to God, not his ability to save himself)

2. "the Father who sent Me draws him (only the elect chosen before creation are drawn)" = irresistable (except by those who could not possibly do otherwise, who can not believe because they are vessels of wrath prepared before they were born) grace (arbitrary and mysterious favor; actionable absent of a man repenting or choosing to believe) = God draws us (the elect) to Jesus

3. "I will raise him up on the last day." = perseverance (a series of pre-determined acts which God determines) of the saints = God (having unchallengeable sovereignty) will finish what (that which He conceived, planned, then determined to be; inclusive of every sinful thought and act of man) he starts.

 

[reba]

@GreggT are you a Calvinist .. Over the years much has been said of what Pentecostals believe that i as a Pentecostal never heard of ?

 

[Gregg T]

@GreggT are you a Calvinist .. Over the years much has been said of what Pentecostals believe that i as a Pentecostal never heard of ?

The church I joined after coming to know Christ was Calvinist, and so were some of my seminary professors. Although that was 30 years ago, I occasionally find my thinking influenced by Calvinism. I've been studying that systematic and the psycology supporting it for several years. There are many variations of it, as there are within Pentecostalism and every denomination..