Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works

[FreeGrace]

You misquote the scriptures and take them out of context.

I still haven't seen any evidence of this claim.

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23


Eternal life is for those who are "in" Christ Jesus our Lord.

I know that. And that fact doesn't efrect anything I've posted.

Those who are "in Him" but do not remain "in Him", are cast into the fire and burned.

I disagree with this "take" on John 15 because Eph 1:13 and 14 teach that those sealed IN HIM with the Holy Spirit are guaranteed for the day of redemption. Both views cannot be correct.

 

[FreeGrace]

I find it interesting that people don't look at the true meaning of words used. You are studying from an English language Bible. That Bible was translated from a Greek language Bible. In the original(that means it predates the Bible you have) manuscripts, the words used for believing and hearing - both found in the passages you proof text - are in the present tense and active voice.

Now, I am not a Greek scholar, but I know enough to make me dangerous.

Then I'm just as dangerous.

What those present and active words mean, is that those words "believe" and "hear" are only applicable to the ones who believe and keep believing, and the ones who hear and keep on hearing.

Aware of the aorist tense as well? Because it is used in many verses for believing for salvation. Acts 16:31, Rom 10:9 are 2 examples.

So, when you indicate that Jesus didn't mean they had to or "as long as" they do, your absolutely wrong.

I can prove the exact opposite, regarding the present tense. It seems your argument is that the present tense means to continue the action to the end of your life. Well, please explain Luke 8:13 - Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe (present tense) for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.

Jesus used the present tense of "believe" and then added "for a while". So, how can that be, if the present tense means continuous action for the rest of one's life. Clearly, it does not mean that.

Not only that, but Jesus used the aorist tense in Luke 8:12 - Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe (aorist) and be saved.

One is saved by a point in time action of believing in Christ. And that was Paul's answer to the jailer in Acts 16:31.

If one must continue to believe in order to continue to be saved, the aorist tense could never be used.

Here is a ling to the Greek interlinear Bible so you can see what the original manuscripts said and the links to the word meanings. If you so choose to study.

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/5.htm

I'm very familiar with biblehub. And I have several interlinears. And Dan Wallace's "Beyond Greek Grammar", which thoroughly explains the various Greek tenses.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"I'm still waiting for any verse that teaches that any believer who ceases to believe will lose their salvation."

Stop redefining terms and you'll see them.

Any such verses that do teach that are in direct conflict with John 10:28, and Rom 11:29.

 

[FreeGrace]

Not at all. I think you may not be seeing what I am asking?

I am asking, where in the OT do we find these passages. I believe the NT are 100% true when they talk about the OT people seeing the coming Salvation of God. So, do you not see these passages written in the OT?

What I have shared shows that salvation by faith in the Messiah was true in the OT. No, neither Jesus nor Paul said which specific verses they were referring to.

Think of it this way. Say you were one of the first people the Apostle Paul came to. There was no 'New Testament' Bible back then. All they had was the "Old Testament" Scriptures. When Paul begins to say that Jesus is the Christ, and teaches about Salvation, he taught them from the "Old Testament" Scriptures. So, we see the Bereans 'searching' out those things Paul taught - to see if they were true. Which passages do you think the Bereans may have looked at?

I have no idea. But the fact still remains.
Acts 9:22 Yet Saul grew more and more powerful and baffled the Jews living in Damascus by proving that Jesus is the Christ.

How do you suppose Paul did that? What was his proof?

The fact is, he did prove it. From the OT. Specifically, from Moses and the prophets.

 

[Nathan]

Then I'm just as dangerous.


Aware of the aorist tense as well? Because it is used in many verses for believing for salvation. Acts 16:31, Rom 10:9 are 2 examples.


I can prove the exact opposite, regarding the present tense. It seems your argument is that the present tense means to continue the action to the end of your life. Well, please explain Luke 8:13 - Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe (present tense) for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.

Jesus used the present tense of "believe" and then added "for a while". So, how can that be, if the present tense means continuous action for the rest of one's life. Clearly, it does not mean that.

Not only that, but Jesus used the aorist tense in Luke 8:12 - Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe (aorist) and be saved.

One is saved by a point in time action of believing in Christ. And that was Paul's answer to the jailer in Acts 16:31.

If one must continue to believe in order to continue to be saved, the aorist tense could never be used.


I'm very familiar with biblehub. And I have several interlinears. And Dan Wallace's "Beyond Greek Grammar", which thoroughly explains the various Greek tenses.

I think you answered your own question? The ones that fall away do so for the very reason they quit believing. They do not continue in it, so therefore they do not have continual life. They believed(when they heard it) - and they kept on believing until they fell away. When they fell away, they no longer believed.

I am familiar(very small amount) with the aorist tense. It is one of the hardest, if not the hardest, tense to understand and translate into English.

Present tense is just that - present. So when someone quits something, it is no longer in the present tense. You can presently(tense) believe in something from one point into infinity.

The difference you see in the present tense used by Jesus, and the aorist tense used by Paul, is that Jesus was talking about the continuance of belief in Him, and Paul was telling the Jailer to believe right then - not to wait. Its all about context when you start diving into this topic.

I really like the fact we have the Interlinear's available to us. I have to feel sorry for the folks in the 'dark' ages who did not have the ability to study things for themselves. However, they had the OT and it clearly lays out a continuance in faith verses the 'once and done' type faith.

 

[chessman]

Yes, but do you agree with the rest of what I said?

No, not really. Not exactly, anyway.

I noticed you didn't provide any Text to specifically support what you said there; "But the flesh itself has to be crucified daily."

Maybe you got my point, maybe not. At least we agreed on the answers and I appreciate your reply. But the reason we are even talking about Gal 5 is a member brought it into a conversation about Matt 18 for some odd reason. His point was that even the little ones that belong to God in Matt 18 could still see Hell via the sins listed there.

Hogwash. Paul just got thru saying that the desire to do those sins has been crucified (put to death) in those that belong to Him.

My point in Gal 5:24 is that what's put to death (crucified) is the flesh that desires to sin, not necessarily any other flesh. We still have flesh (and we still sin). But to someone who belongs to God, they have put the desires for those sins to death. Paul's either right or he's wrong. Are those desires crucifed or not??? I says yes, they are crucifed. I have zero desire to do any of them.

Thus, I find your claim a bit odd, yes. Is our flesh crucified daily (and by whom) then resurrected nightly, then crucified the next day, then resurrected again and again over and over??? Please remember we are talking about crucify Christ over and over again (figuratively I suppose because I don't know what Text says this) if what you said (But the flesh itself has to be crucified daily) is true.

Heb 10 doesn't say anything about crucifing our flesh, so ... ??? You'd have to explain some Text that actually speaks of what you mean by this for me to agree with it.

But I do recognize a daily war with sin goes on daily (and nightly) that is overcome ONLY in the strength of His might (not ours). Standing firm against sin (being strong) Biblically speaking is us recognizing His strength.

Ephesians 6:10-13 (NASB) Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of His might. Put on the full armor of God, so that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places. Therefore, take up the full armor of God, so that you will be able to resist in the evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm. ​

But we have had the; what does "stand firm"/"hold fast" mean (Biblically speaking) discussion before without agreement on what the term truly means.

Should we discuss what crucifed means, too? Because I'm confused as to how someone who has actually crucifed the desire to sin those listed in Gal 5 could actually go on sinning them willfully? Maybe they are not really "standing firm" in the strength of His might (and thus not really crucifed the desire) in the first place. Maybe they are standing weakly in their own strength to avoid them?

 

[FreeGrace]

I think you answered your own question? The ones that fall away do so for the very reason they quit believing. They do not continue in it, so therefore they do not have continual life.

But this is just an assumption. There are no verses that teach this.

If there were, they would be in direct conflict with Jesus' promise in John 10:28.

They believed(when they heard it) - and they kept on believing until they fell away. When they fell away, they no longer believed.

What they "fell away" from was their faith. There are no verses that teach that one is saved only as long as they continue to believe.

I am familiar(very small amount) with the aorist tense. It is one of the hardest, if not the hardest, tense to understand and translate into English.

Dan Wallace's explanation makes it rather easy to understand. He used the analogy of a snapshot. A point in time.

Here's another simple explanation of the aorist: "If the writer is referring to an action that happened in past time, he could refer to it as either progressive (by using the imperfect tense) or as merely a simple occurrence, with no emphasis on the action's progress (by using the aorist tense)." From: http://www.ntgreek.org/learn_nt_greek/inter-tense.htm

Present tense is just that - present. So when someone quits something, it is no longer in the present tense. You can presently(tense) believe in something from one point into infinity.

Jesus used the present tense and immediately added "for a while", so one cannot claim the present tense means continuous action to the end of their life.

The difference you see in the present tense used by Jesus, and the aorist tense used by Paul, is that Jesus was talking about the continuance of belief in Him, and Paul was telling the Jailer to believe right then - not to wait. Its all about context when you start diving into this topic.

Jesus also used the aorist tense in Luke 8:12 regarding the first soil.

I really like the fact we have the Interlinear's available to us. I have to feel sorry for the folks in the 'dark' ages who did not have the ability to study things for themselves. However, they had the OT and it clearly lays out a continuance in faith verses the 'once and done' type faith.

What verse or verses in the OT teach that one must continue in the fiath in order to continue to be saved?

 

[chessman]

Jesus used the present tense and immediately added "for a while",

http://biblehub.com/greek/2540.htm

Technically in the Greek, Jesus added: καιρός
Transliteration: kairos
Phonetic Spelling: (kahee-ros')
Short Definition: fitting season, opportunity, time

They had a time (an opportunity) to believe.
Translators had options from the word's scope of meaning to use.

And furthermore, Jesus said that the good soil was the one example of the four that understood the word. So even if the definition of "for a while" was meant (versus an opportunity), the ones on the rock didn't understand the word during the "while" they believed.

 

[FreeGrace]

http://biblehub.com/greek/2540.htm

Technically in the Greek, Jesus added: καιρός
Transliteration: kairos
Phonetic Spelling: (kahee-ros')
Short Definition: fitting season, opportunity, time

They had a time (an opportunity) to believe.
Translators had options from the word's scope of meaning to use.

And furthermore, Jesus said that the good soil was the one example of the four that understood the word. So even if the definition of "for a while" was meant (versus an opportunity), the ones on the rock didn't understand the word during the "while" they believed.

Is there any translation that says "had a time/opportunity to believe"? I'm not aware of any.

The link provided (biblehub) translates Luke 8:13 as "believed/entrusted" "for a time/season". My book interlinear renders the verse:
"and the [ones] on therock who when they hear with joy reeive the word; and these root have not, who for a time believe and in time of trial withdraw."

My Bible study program renders it "which for a while believe".

I believe the second soil were believers who then fell away from their faith because of trials/temptations.

 

[Nathan]

What they "fell away" from was their faith. There are no verses that teach that one is saved only as long as they continue to believe.


What verse or verses in the OT teach that one must continue in the fiath in order to continue to be saved?

How is a person saved? What I mean is, through what means does God use to save a person? To further clarify my question, what specifically, does God give a person in order for them to believe?

To go along with the question above; a second one, can a person 'believe' apart from having this gift?

To answer your question, that you asked;

Ezekiel 18
24 But when a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice and does the same abominations that the wicked person does, shall he live? None of the righteous deeds that he has done shall be remembered; for the treachery of which he is guilty and the sin he has committed, for them he shall die.
25 "Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' Hear now, O house of Israel: Is my way not just? Is it not your ways that are not just?
26 When a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice, he shall die for it; for the injustice that he has done he shall die.

 

[Nathan]

However, one must understand that there is hope;

Ezekiel 18
27 Again, when a wicked person turns away from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right, he shall save his life.
28 Because he considered and turned away from all the transgressions that he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
29 Yet the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' O house of Israel, are my ways not just? Is it not your ways that are not just?
30 "Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, declares the Lord GOD. Repent and turn from all your transgressions, lest iniquity be your ruin.[fn]
31 Cast away from you all the transgressions that you have committed, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why will you die, O house of Israel?
32 For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord GOD; so turn, and live."

 

[Jim Parker]

I think you answered your own question? The ones that fall away do so for the very reason they quit believing. They do not continue in it, so therefore they do not have continual life. They believed(when they heard it) - and they kept on believing until they fell away. When they fell away, they no longer believed.

That's what scripture says;
COL 1:21-23 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight —IF YOU CONTINUE IN YOUR FAITH, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.

HEB 3:14 We have come to share in Christ IF WE HOLD FIRMLY TILL THE END THE CONFIDENCE WE HAD AT FIRST.

2 PE 2:15a They have forsaken the right way and gone astray,…
and
2 PE 2:20-22 For IF, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.”

I am familiar(very small amount) with the aorist tense. It is one of the hardest, if not the hardest, tense to understand and translate into English.

The tense does not overrule the clear message of the sentence and the context in which the sentence is found. An appeal to "aorist tense" is, IMO, an attempt to present a proof from a source that offers no proof.

iakov the fool

 

[Jim Parker]

Hi all! Please.

The thread is NOT about OSAS.

There were two subjects in the OP:
I. Saved from what?
and
II. What is “Eternal Life”?

Can we stick to those two topics please? :wink

Thanks!

iakov the fool

 

[chessman]

Is there any translation that says "had a time/opportunity to believe"? I'm not aware of any.

Not in this verse. But the word itself is translated as opportunity in other verses.

Galatians 6:10 So then, while we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, and especially to those who are of the household of the faith. ​

 

[Jim Parker]

There are no verses that teach that one is saved only as long as they continue to believe.

That has nothing to do with this thread.
PLEASE!!!

 

[JLB]

Please show what verse Ihave supposedly misquoted. And how any context changes what I have posted.

Romans 6:23 does not say eternal life is a gift of God, those are your words.

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.
20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:19-23

Those Christians who live a life of sin, will receive the wages of sin, which is death.
Those Christians who live by the Spirit, and produce fruit unto holiness, will in the end, receive everlasting life.


JLB

 

[JLB]

And what is the point here? That one HAS eternal life when one believes. That is my point.

And, John 10:28 says that those Jesus gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH.

No scripture to support your opinion.

That's NOT what he taught. Rom 3:20 refutes any idea that anyone can earn eternal life through patient endurance in doing good.

Paul taught us those who will receive eternal life, and those who don't.

The Key Phrase: God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”

God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:
eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
Romans 2:6-8


If you don't believe what Paul said, then I can't help you.



JLB

 

[JLB]

I think it should be obvious that those "who are in the graves" have already died and therefore, their fate is sealed. We know from many Scriptures that salvation is based on faith in Christ, not "doing good". That's what the Pharisees thought about salvation. Based on doing good.

Your the one quoting John 5:24 as your proof text?


I guess maybe you should read the context before quoting a verse, out of context.



JLB

 

[Nathan]

Romans 6:23 does not say eternal life is a gift of God, those are your words.

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.
20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:19-23

Those Christians who live a life of sin, will receive the wages of sin, which is death.
Those Christians who live by the Spirit, and produce fruit unto holiness, will in the end, receive everlasting life.


JLB

Seeing how this thread is about eternal life;

What is the gift of God that =(is) eternal life? The one that Paul talks about in that passage in romans.

 

[FreeGrace]

How is a person saved? What I mean is, through what means does God use to save a person?

Grace. Eph 2:8 - For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

By grace, through faith.

To further clarify my question, what specifically, does God give a person in order for them to believe?

An intellect. And a conscience. Rom 2:14,15
One can't believe until one understands the issue.

To go along with the question above; a second one, can a person 'believe' apart from having this gift?

One can't believe until one understand the issue.

To answer your question, that you asked;

Ezekiel 18
24 But when a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice and does the same abominations that the wicked person does, shall he live? None of the righteous deeds that he has done shall be remembered; for the treachery of which he is guilty and the sin he has committed, for them he shall die.
25 "Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' Hear now, O house of Israel: Is my way not just? Is it not your ways that are not just?
26 When a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice, he shall die for it; for the injustice that he has done he shall die.

Could you remind me of my question? But regarding this passage, I believe it doesn't refer to eternal death at all. It deals with capital punishment.