Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works

[Nathan]

For the Christian there is certainly a sin unto death; even Moses experienced that for not believing God and refusing to sanctifying Him, and yet do you believe that moses is in hell today, and if not, why?

Moses was not said of his soul dying. He died in faith. His soul will not die because of it. Same as us.

Hebrews 11
24 By faith Moses, when he was grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter,
25 choosing rather to be mistreated with the people of God than to enjoy the fleeting pleasures of sin.
26 He considered the reproach of Christ greater wealth than the treasures of Egypt, for he was looking to the reward.
27 By faith he left Egypt, not being afraid of the anger of the king, for he endured as seeing him who is invisible.
28 By faith he kept the Passover and sprinkled the blood, so that the Destroyer of the firstborn might not touch them.

39 And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised,
40 since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.

 

[Nathan]

Your reasoning is still based on 'as if' and faulty comparisons.

Please re-read the Scripture you posted above - like one, like the slain, like those . . . and did you not read his opening statement, "O LORD, the God of my salvation,"

So, the psalmist is just talking out the impossible potential? I would think if he is stating that God remembers some 'no more', then that means God remembers some no more?

 

[Nathan]

Isn't your view that one's salvation can be lost? Or that a believer can end up in hell??


Then why quote the passage from Ezek?


Then you've missed the meaning of the passage from Ezek.


Please review the passage from Ezek.


It seems your view is that the only way for a believer to end up in hell is for the sealing IN HIM with the Holy Spirit (Eph 1:13) is for this sealing to be unsealed. Is that correct? I don't want to put words in your mouth.


No person during their lifetime can be sinless. They will be sinless while being filled with the Holy Spirit.

But ANY sin, no matter how "small" it may be, will result in either grieving the Spirit (Eph 4:30) or quenching the Spirit (1 Thess 5:19).

But it is impossible for any believer who is filled with the Spirit to sin. 1 John 3:9

Ah, so because you don't want to accept the fact that God says a righteous person will die if they turn from righteousness - then I am not reading the passage correctly? That's almost funny.

It's not my words, it's Gods. If you do not want to believe what is written that's up to you. The passage is quite clear.

Do you believe someone can be righteous apart from Christ?

Ezekiel 18
25 "Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' Hear now, O house of Israel: Is my way not just? Is it not your ways that are not just?
26 When a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice, he shall die for it; for the injustice that he has done he shall die.

 

[Nathan]

It appears that your first sentence contradicts your second sentence. The passage in Ezek speaks of death as a result of sin. But you've just claimed that the soul doesn't die from each act of sin. So what is the passage about?


But one who has been given eternal life cannot die. Which refutes the entire notion that a believer can end up in hell.


I gave the Scriptural support for my statement. Did you not do your homework? OK, I'll do it for you. From Revelation 20 -
11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.
14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.
15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

So, on what basis is one thrown into the lake of fire, from this passage?


They never received it. So, how does one receive the gift of eternal life? Belief in the Savior: John 3:15,16, 36, 5:24, 6:40, 47, 11:25-26.


I just gave the answer to your question from Scripture. It's yours to believe or not.

[/QUOTE]

I think your trying to attack my posts, looking for something that doesn't seem right to you, and then making personal accusations.

The death Ezekiel speaks of is eternal. As in, final. As in, no longer living and breathing.

Sin causes seperation. Christ intercedes for those in Him. If someone is not in Christ, then there is no one to intercede for them. When they die, they will be eternally separated from God.

 

[Nathan]

The text itself clearly indicates that. This sealing is a guarantee for the day of redemption. Eph 1:13,14
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.


No one has to prove silliness. The passage in Ezek is about God's divine discipline including physical death. Which will be painful, according to Heb 12.

The contrast in Ezek is between physical life and physical death. It cannot be about eternal death, or it would mean one repeatedly dies eternally for each act of sin. Which is quite silly.

Can a wicked person have eternal life?

Ezekiel is clearly speaking of the soul, not body of flesh.

A person cannot go back and forth dying physically or spiritually. So simple reason understands the death spoken of is eternal death, and the life spoken of is eternal life.

 

[Nathan]

Of course He is. And He gives eternal life to believers (John 11:25-26), because He said He does. And those He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH, because He said so. John 10:28


Prove this claim from Scripture. Eph 1:13,14 refutes the notion that any believer can be unsealed.


I would suggest your grip on Scripture isn't very tight.


We're born separated.


I understand fully. But it seems OSNAS (loss of salvation) doesn't have any grasp of grace.


He intercedes for us regardless of what we do. That's what is missing from OSNAS. It's all in Hebrews.


Where does it clearly and plainly say that He doesn't?

Eph 1:13,14 is plain enough. Having believed in a single occurrence results in being sealed IN HIM for the day of redemption.

That said, how can one sealed end up in hell? Please explain.

Ezekiel 18
4 Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins shall die.

24 But when a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice and does the same abominations that the wicked person does, shall he live? None of the righteous deeds that he has done shall be remembered; for the treachery of which he is guilty and the sin he has committed, for them he shall die.

Can a person be righteous apart from Christ? Is the soul just the physical aspect of a person, or is it that which receives eternal life?

 

[Gregg T]

So, the psalmist is just talking out the impossible potential? I would think if he is stating that God remembers some 'no more', then that means God remembers some no more?

Ps 88:5 refers to those mortally wounded who are physically dead. A mortal wound is not the same as a spiritual wound, and physical death is not the same as spiritual death. Yet you justify your reasoning by an incorrect understanding.

The writer in Ps 88 was saying his spiritual lonliness was like or as one physically dead who could no longer worship the Lord in this life, that the Lord may remember Him and be attentive to him in this life. The writer was pleaing to the Lord for His attention, "Let my prayer come before you."

Would you have the Lord answer him, 'but you are not now believing in me' or 'I only knew you for a while.'?

And to the text you added a possible potential, and then established a firm spiritual doctrine upon that.

I am not attacking you, but your reasoning; a propensity to see things that are not there and then base a belief on that.

 

[FreeGrace]

A Christian is marked by God and sealed by the Spirit. “You also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory” (Ephesians 1:13–14). At the moment of faith, the new Christian is marked and sealed with the Spirit, who was promised to act as a deposit to guarantee the heavenly inheritance. The end result is that God’s glory is praised. For a Christian to lose salvation, God would have to erase the mark, withdraw the Spirit, cancel the deposit, break His promise, revoke the guarantee, keep the inheritance, forego the praise, and lessen His glory. rest of article.

Amen!!

 

[FreeGrace]

So can a person have eternal life if they are not in Christ?

Of course not. But that is not the question.

Can a person who has been sealed with the Holy Spirit IN HIM be unsealed from Him? And there are no verses that say that.

 

[FreeGrace]

Right, we are sealed for the day of redemption. If we turn from Christ before the day of redemption, then how can one say they will be redeemed?

Because they have been sealed IN HIM, for the day of redemption. That's how.

 

[FreeGrace]

Ah, so because you don't want to accept the fact that God says a righteous person will die if they turn from righteousness - then I am not reading the passage correctly? That's almost funny.

No, what's really funny is your total misunderstanding of my beliefs.

OF COURSE I accept the FACT that God not only says a righteous person will die if they turn from righteousness, He will be the cause of it.

It's called "the sin unto death" and is physical removal from earth (think Ananias/Saphira) in sometimes painful ways. 1 Cor 11:30 - "many are weak and sickly, and a number "sleep" (figurative for physical death)."

It's not my words, it's Gods. If you do not want to believe what is written that's up to you. The passage is quite clear.

lol

Do you believe someone can be righteous apart from Christ?

Nope.

 

[FreeGrace]

The death Ezekiel speaks of is eternal. As in, final. As in, no longer living and breathing.[/QUOTE]
Impossible. We are born separated, meaning we are born physically alive but spiritually dead. We can't die again.

Sin causes seperation.

We're born that way. Rom 5 says so. Thanks to Adam. We can't die again.

Christ intercedes for those in Him.

And no one who has been sealed IN HIM can EVER be removed from Him. Because they are guaranteed for the day of redemption. Eph 1:13,14

If someone is not in Christ, then there is no one to intercede for them.

Please show me any verse that teaches that any believer can be unsealed from being IN HIM for any reason.

When they die, they will be eternally separated from God.

Again, we're born that way. And we cannot die again. But we can sin over and over. Even sealed believers do that.

 

[FreeGrace]

Can a wicked person have eternal life?

Christ died for all sins, so sins cannot be an issue. Believers can be wicked. And Jesus said that those He gives eternal life (that would be believers only) WILL NEVER PERISH. John 10:28

Ezekiel is clearly speaking of the soul, not body of flesh.

Not possible. We're born spiritually dead, separated from God. Sin doesn't separate us. That would suggest that we're born as Adam was created, which we weren't.

A person cannot go back and forth dying physically or spiritually. So simple reason understands the death spoken of is eternal death, and the life spoken of is eternal life.

Right, Ezekiel didn't speak of going back and forth. So the death that he spoke of was physical death, as in "the sin unto death", which is physical. See 1 Cor 11:30 and realize that "sleep" is a euphemism for physical death, just as Jesus used the word in John 11 for the physical death of Lazarus, and His disciples didn't understand Him. So He had to say it in plain language to them.

 

[Nathan]

Ps 88:5 refers to those mortally wounded who are physically dead. A mortal wound is not the same as a spiritual wound, and physical death is not the same as spiritual death. Yet you justify your reasoning by an incorrect understanding.

The writer in Ps 88 was saying his spiritual lonliness was like or as one physically dead who could no longer worship the Lord in this life, that the Lord may remember Him and be attentive to him in this life. The writer was pleaing to the Lord for His attention, "Let my prayer come before you."

Would you have the Lord answer him, 'but you are not now believing in me' or 'I only knew you for a while.'?

And to the text you added a possible potential, and then established a firm spiritual doctrine upon that.

I am not attacking you, but your reasoning; a propensity to see things that are not there and then base a belief on that.

Psa 88:1-7
A Song. A Psalm of the Sons of Korah. To the choirmaster: according to Mahalath Leannoth. A Maskil of Heman the Ezrahite.
O LORD, God of my salvation;
I cry out day and night before you.

Let my prayer come before you;
incline your ear to my cry!

For my soul is full of troubles,
and my life draws near to Sheol.

I am counted among those who go down to the pit;
I am a man who has no strength,

like one set loose among the dead,
like the slain that lie in the grave,
like those whom you remember no more,
for they are cut off from your hand.

You have put me in the depths of the pit,
in the regions dark and deep.

Your wrath lies heavy upon me,
and you overwhelm me with all your waves. Selah

I know your not attacking me. I did not pen the words of this Psalm. The writer is obviously talking about spiritual separation. I have never, ever, heard of God's wrath being upon a believer in the faith. The words "pit", "dark", and "deep" are not words associated with a place where believers are.

 

[Nathan]

No, what's really funny is your total misunderstanding of my beliefs.

OF COURSE I accept the FACT that God not only says a righteous person will die if they turn from righteousness, He will be the cause of it.

It's called "the sin unto death" and is physical removal from earth (think Ananias/Saphira) in sometimes painful ways. 1 Cor 11:30 - "many are weak and sickly, and a number "sleep" (figurative for physical death)."


lol


Nope.

Ezekiel is quite clear God is speaking about the soul dying, yet you think its the physical removal from earth. Sorry, there really cannot be conversation if you do not accept the plain words written in the Bible. The Bible never speaks of the soul of a believer dying. Here it is again if you missed it.

Eze 18:4
Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins shall die.

Eze 18:24
But when a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice and does the same abominations that the wicked person does, shall he live? None of the righteous deeds that he has done shall be remembered; for the treachery of which he is guilty and the sin he has committed, for them he shall die.

You believe a person cannot be righteous without Christ, and your correct. We know that the soul of the righteous man, meaning a person in Christ, turns from that righteousness(turns from Christ), and then does the same things the wicked do - he will die. However, we know that as long as he is still alive on this earth, if he turns back to Christ, then he will live.

Eze 18:21-23
But if a wicked person turns away from all his sins that he has committed and keeps all my statutes and does what is just and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. None of the transgressions that he has committed shall be remembered against him; for the righteousness that he has done he shall live. Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord GOD, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live?

If you notice, the passage states "he shall not die" when describing the turning of the wicked to righteousness. This obviously is not speaking of physical death.

 

[Nathan]

The death Ezekiel speaks of is eternal. As in, final. As in, no longer living and breathing.

Impossible. We are born separated, meaning we are born physically alive but spiritually dead. We can't die again.


We're born that way. Rom 5 says so. Thanks to Adam. We can't die again.


And no one who has been sealed IN HIM can EVER be removed from Him. Because they are guaranteed for the day of redemption. Eph 1:13,14


Please show me any verse that teaches that any believer can be unsealed from being IN HIM for any reason.


Again, we're born that way. And we cannot die again. But we can sin over and over. Even sealed believers do that.[/QUOTE]

Inconceivable. You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

"sealed" - sphragízō, sfrag-id'-zo; from G4973; to stamp (with a signet or private mark) for security or preservation (literally or figuratively); by implication, to keep secret, to attest:—(set a, set to) seal up, stop.

I am not sure what you mean by 'unsealing'. It seems to me that you think the word means to seal something inside of something. The sealing spoken of is a 'mark' of ownership. Much the same way there will be many false teachers who come, who will deny the Master who bought them(owns them), and receive the mark of the beast.

Rev 19:20
And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.

 

[Nathan]

Christ died for all sins, so sins cannot be an issue. Believers can be wicked. And Jesus said that those He gives eternal life (that would be believers only) WILL NEVER PERISH. John 10:28


Not possible. We're born spiritually dead, separated from God. Sin doesn't separate us. That would suggest that we're born as Adam was created, which we weren't.


Right, Ezekiel didn't speak of going back and forth. So the death that he spoke of was physical death, as in "the sin unto death", which is physical. See 1 Cor 11:30 and realize that "sleep" is a euphemism for physical death, just as Jesus used the word in John 11 for the physical death of Lazarus, and His disciples didn't understand Him. So He had to say it in plain language to them.

Psa 1:5
Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment,
nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous;

Psa 9:5

You have rebuked the nations; you have made the wicked perish;
you have blotted out their name forever and ever.

Psa 9:17

The wicked shall return to Sheol,
all the nations that forget God.

Psa 10:3

For the wicked boasts of the desires of his soul,
and the one greedy for gain curses and renounces the LORD.

Psa 10:13
Why does the wicked renounce God
and say in his heart, “You will not call to account”?



Psa 92:5-9
How great are your works, O LORD!
Your thoughts are very deep!

The stupid man cannot know;
the fool cannot understand this:

that though the wicked sprout like grass
and all evildoers flourish,
they are doomed to destruction forever;

but you, O LORD, are on high forever.

For behold, your enemies, O LORD,
for behold, your enemies shall perish;
all evildoers shall be scattered.

 

[Gregg T]

Ah, so because you don't want to accept the fact that God says a righteous person will die if they turn from righteousness - then I am not reading the passage correctly? That's almost funny.

Ezekiel 18:26 When a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice, he shall die for it; for the injustice that he has done he shall die.

The man was doing according to his own righteousness

Psa 88:1-7
A Song. A Psalm of the Sons of Korah. To the choirmaster: according to Mahalath Leannoth. A Maskil of Heman the Ezrahite.
O LORD, God of my salvation;
I cry out day and night before you.

Let my prayer come before you;
incline your ear to my cry!

For my soul is full of troubles,
and my life draws near to Sheol.

I am counted among those who go down to the pit;
I am a man who has no strength,

like one set loose among the dead,
like the slain that lie in the grave,
like those whom you remember no more,
for they are cut off from your hand.

You have put me in the depths of the pit,
in the regions dark and deep.

Your wrath lies heavy upon me,
and you overwhelm me with all your waves. Selah

I know your not attacking me. I did not pen the words of this Psalm. The writer is obviously talking about spiritual separation. I have never, ever, heard of God's wrath being upon a believer in the faith. The words "pit", "dark", and "deep" are not words associated with a place where believers are.

The writer is experiencing lack of spiritual fellowship, not lack of salvation as he cries out in Ps 88:1, "O Lord, God of my salvation." Pit, dark and deep, and wrath (here meaning anger but not to eternal destruction) do not indicate lack of salvation or loss of eternal life. So why do you continue to use that chapter to justify a believer can lose salvation?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Yes Jethro...we're both lost forever with no hope of salvation. Everytime we sin we separate ourselves from God.

Lol, if you're going to be in the non-OSAS camp you have to get the argument straight.
No longer believing is how you lose your salvation. The return to your old sinful life as a result is simply the outward manifestation of that unbelief.

The funny thing is, you'll probably continue to say non-OSAS is about losing your salvation when you sin. Right?

 

[Jim Parker]

Believers can be wicked.

Your grasp of holiness is less than astounding.