Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works

[MarkT]

I said this:
"When one believes, they HAVE eternal life (John 5:24). iow, it's their possession. Jesus also promised in John 10:28 that those He gives eternal life, WILL NEVER PERISH. That's quite plain. On the basis of RECEIVING eternal life, one WILL NEVER PERISH.

Note how there are NO conditions, such as OSNAS adds, in order to NEVER PERISH. Once received, the gift of eternal life means that one WILL NEVER PERISH.

So, one who has the gift HAS eternal life. That is what CANNOT BE CHANGED. IOW, one who has eternal life CANNOT PERISH, CANNOT DIE SPIRITUALLY. There CANNOT be any change in their status.

It sure doesn't mean or even suggest that the gift of eternal life continues on in some way while the one who was given it can end up in hell. That would just render words meaningless."

Why would it have to? Paul already noted 3 of God's gifts previously before he got to 11:29.


There is no evidence from anywhere in the Bible that God's gifts are "related to the covenant". If that were true, there'd be at least 1 verse saying so. This is just more presumption and assumption because the Word of God doesn't say what is being claimed.


True, but so what? And it can't be undone. And neither can the gifts that Paul ACTUALLY described be undone. That means eternal life cannot be undone. iow, once given, it remains with the recipient.

Which is why Jesus said that those He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH in John 10:28. The ONLY CONDITION for NEVER PERISHING is to receive the irrevocable gift of eternal life.


Doesn't have to.


Doesn't have to. Jesus told us WHEN one receives the gift of eternal life; when they believe. And from 10:28, we know that those who receive eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH.


OK. Which changes nothing I've posted

First explain vs. 28. How is vs. 28 related to vs. 29 and why does Paul say, "For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable"? What is he saying about those people?

He is saying God called them to be his people. So that can not be undone. He promised them the Deliverer who would take away their sins. Rom. 11:26-27 He promised them they would inherit the land. Ex. 32:13 He gave them the prophets (prophecy is a gift). He gave them the priesthood and the law and the book of the covenant written in stone so it can not be changed.

 

[MarkT]

OK, so it seems your view is that a soul can die from each act of sin. So then, how many times can a soul die for sinning? Just once, or after each act?

It seems to me that your views only put you in a corner that you can't get out of.


It seems my post wasn't comprehended. What I posted was that those who believe that there are any reasons why a person can lose their salvation MEANS that Christ died for nothing and sin or lifestyle trumps the work of Christ on the cross.

How can that not be clear? Jesus Christ died for all sins. Therefore, sin cannot be the reason for going to hell. Sadly, it seems not too many Christians understand that.

There is only ONE REASON for a person going to hell. For not having eternal life. Rev 20:15. Which is an irrevocable gift, per Rom 6:23 and 11:29.

If you don't keep his word then what Jesus said will not happen. Jesus said, “If a man loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. John 14:23 So if a man falls away, how likely is it that he has the Son?

And John puts it this way,
1 John 5:12
He who has the Son has life; he who has not the Son of God has not life.

 

[Cygnus]

Lol, if you're going to be in the non-OSAS camp you have to get the argument straight.
No longer believing is how you lose your salvation. The return to your old sinful life as a result is simply the outward manifestation of that unbelief.

The funny thing is, you'll probably continue to say non-OSAS is about losing your salvation when you sin. Right?

If you no longer believe..then that what created disbelief in an individual had the ability to defy Christ Jesus words and snatch you out of the Fathers hand.

If an individual were a true believer..given to Christ Jesus by the Father...came to Christ, they won't be turned away.
John 6:37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one whocomes to Me I will never turn away.

John 6:39
And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that I shall lose none of all those He has given Me, but raise them up at the last day.
....Is the bible wrong when it says a believer given to Christ can be lost?

 

[Jim Parker]

First explain vs. 28. How is vs. 28 related to vs. 29 and why does Paul say, "For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable"? What is he saying about those people?

He is saying God called them to be his people. So that can not be undone. He promised them the Deliverer who would take away their sins. Rom. 11:26-27 He promised them they would inherit the land. Ex. 32:13 He gave them the prophets (prophecy is a gift). He gave them the priesthood and the law and the book of the covenant written in stone so it can not be changed.

Free's been shown that before. He won't get it. He's decided it means OSAS and nothing will move him from that..........stuff.

 

[Nathan]

The man was doing according to his own righteousness

The writer is experiencing lack of spiritual fellowship, not lack of salvation as he cries out in Ps 88:1, "O Lord, God of my salvation." Pit, dark and deep, and wrath (here meaning anger but not to eternal destruction) do not indicate lack of salvation or loss of eternal life. So why do you continue to use that chapter to justify a believer can lose salvation?

I did not use that chapter to justify lose of salvation. You may think I was, but I had no such intention.

If you remember, you asked me how Jesus would say "I never knew you" to a believer who turned away. I posted that passage to show that those who turn away from God will be not rememberd by Him.

Do you believe the righteousness spoken of in Ezekiel is self righteousness and not righteousness in God?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I asked 'Could Christ ever say to a believer who stops believing, "I never knew you" '.

You are redefing "never" and "knew." You reason that "never knew" somehow becomes 'as whom he never knew.' Seriously, you accept that as an honest account?

'Never' means never, and 'knew' means knew. I did not redefine them. As a matter of fact I thought you'd recognize from 1 John the definition of 'knowing' I used. And I pointed you to Jesus' own words in the parable of the sower where he talks about those who believed but who stopped believing and never matured to 'knowing' God. God not 'knowing' you does not only mean you never believed. The parable of the sower shows us it can also means you stopped believing and never matured.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

....Is the bible wrong when it says a believer given to Christ can be lost?

Christ is not an incompetent High Priest, like, for example, Eli was. Christ doesn't lose anybody who comes to Him. What can happen is they lose faith in Him and stop depending on his perfect ministry.

 

[FreeGrace]

Ezekiel is quite clear God is speaking about the soul dying, yet you think its the physical removal from earth.

Right. We disagree and I explained why your view cannot be correct. If he was writing about soul death, that isn't even possible, since unbelievers will spend an eternity in conscious torment. That isn't soul death. They will also be permanently separated from God, which is spiritual death, but we're born that way, so there is no way Zeke could be speaking of spiritual death from acts of sin.

You believe a person cannot be righteous without Christ, and your correct. We know that the soul of the righteous man, meaning a person in Christ, turns from that righteousness(turns from Christ), and then does the same things the wicked do - he will die.

Yep. God's discipline includes physical death. 1 Cor 11:30

However, we know that as long as he is still alive on this earth, if he turns back to Christ, then he will live.

Right. God won't kill him.

Are you aware of how King Saul died? Sure, he fell on his sword (1 Chron 10:4). We'd call that suicide. But this is how the Bible describes it: 1 Chron 10:13-14
13 Saul died because he was unfaithful to the Lord; he did not keep the word of the Lord and even consulted a medium for guidance, 14 and did not inquire of the Lord. So the Lord put him to death and turned the kingdom over to David son of Jesse.

That's what Ezekiel was speaking about.

 

[FreeGrace]

The man was doing according to his own righteousness

The writer is experiencing lack of spiritual fellowship, not lack of salvation as he cries out in Ps 88:1, "O Lord, God of my salvation." Pit, dark and deep, and wrath (here meaning anger but not to eternal destruction) do not indicate lack of salvation or loss of eternal life. So why do you continue to use that chapter to justify a believer can lose salvation?

The sad fact is that OSNAS has no concept of spiritual fellowship, and that many references in the Bible to "death" refer to loss of fellowship. They only see 2 states: saved or lost. Fellowship has no place in their theology.

 

[FreeGrace]

Lol, if you're going to be in the non-OSAS camp you have to get the argument straight.
No longer believing is how you lose your salvation.

Please follow forum rules and post Scripture that says this.

The funny thing is, you'll probably continue to say non-OSAS is about losing your salvation when you sin. Right?

Just as in the OSAS camp, there are various views within the OSNAS camp.

 

[FreeGrace]

Your grasp of holiness is less than astounding.

I'm not here to astound anyone. When someone believes in Christ and is saved, given eternal life, and sealed with the Holy Spirit, do they lose their sin nature? No. They don't. Which means they are still QUITE CAPABLE of acting like they did before they believed.

Case in point: King David. As a mature believer, he raped Bathsheba and had her husband killed.

So don't lecture me about wickedness or what believers can't do.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

post Scripture that says this.

Why, so you can not see them again?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Saved Christ deniers.
It's laughable. But that is what the church has shrunk to in these end times. It's a feel good theology for this time of rampant porn and substance addictions. Christ is still the answer for deliverance from those things, not theologies that make it so you can continue in unbelief and sin and still be saved. God's grace was given us to believe and overcome sin. Grace is not a license for a person to languish in sin and unbelief and still have Christ. That is a lie. Paul said grace teaches us to say 'no' to ungodliness. But Hyper-grace says it's a license to say 'yes' to unbelief and sin and still have eternal life. It's the mother of all ear tickling doctrines.

 

[FreeGrace]

First explain vs. 28. How is vs. 28 related to vs. 29 and why does Paul say, "For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable"? What is he saying about those people?

v.28 ends his dissertation about Israel. v.29 relates to boths Jews and Gentiles. Paul had already described 3 of God's gifts, which are available for both Jew and Gentile. And as for God's call, that too is for both Jew and Gentile.

Consider Rom 1:5 - Through him and for his name's sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith.

So, within the confines of the context of the letter to the Romans, Paul notes that both God's call and God's gifts are for both Jew and Gentile.

Proving that 11:29 isn't limited to just Jew, as is claimed by OSNAS in an attempt to dissociate 11:29 from 6:23.

He is saying God called them to be his people.

Sure. Just as God has called Gentiles. 1:5

So that can not be undone.

Right. Neither God's call to Jew and Gentile or God's gifts given to Jew and Gentile can be undone.

He promised them the Deliverer who would take away their sins.

This isn't relevant to the discussion, since no promise is described as a gift.

Rom. 11:26-27 He promised them they would inherit the land.

So what? It's never described as a gift. And Israel today doesn't have what God promised to them. In fact, in AD 70, God revoked the land from Israel when they were overtaken and the nation ended and their land was taken away. So you have no point.

Ex. 32:13 He gave them the prophets (prophecy is a gift).

What a leap!! Prophesy is a gift to NT believers. In the OT, there were false prophets. So prophets are NOT a gift in any sense. So you have no point.

He gave them the priesthood and the law and the book of the covenant written in stone so it can not be changed.

This isn't even close to what 11:29 says. So you have no point.

 

[FreeGrace]

If you don't keep his word then what Jesus said will not happen. Jesus said, “If a man loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. John 14:23 So if a man falls away, how likely is it that he has the Son?

If he ever had the Son, he cannot lose the Son. Because the Son promises this: 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. John 10

iow, Jesus holds those who have believed in Him. They may turn their back, but they are still in His hand. There is no escape. They aren't strong enough.

But OSNAS thinks man is strong enough to separate himself from Christ. But the Bible doesn't teach that, but the opposite.

And John puts it this way,
1 John 5:12
He who has the Son has life; he who has not the Son of God has not life.

He is speaking of those who never believed. Those who believed have the Son. Jesus said so.

 

[FreeGrace]

Christ is not an incompetent High Priest, like, for example, Eli was. Christ doesn't lose anybody who comes to Him. What can happen is they lose faith in Him and stop depending on his perfect ministry.

So, this sounds like He lets them go, huh? Where is that taught in Scripture?

What is taught in Scripture is: 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. John 10

The next verse says no one is strong enough to remove anyone from His hand.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"post Scripture that says this."

Why, so you can not see them again?

The only reason they have not been seen is because they have not been posted. Because they do not exist.

I'm always more than happy to repeat Scriptures when someone requests. But this kind of response only reveals the absolute poverty of OSNAS; they don't have Scriptures that say what they claim.

 

[Cygnus]

Christ is not an incompetent High Priest, like, for example, Eli was. Christ doesn't lose anybody who comes to Him. What can happen is they lose faith in Him and stop depending on his perfect ministry.

Even when they stop depending on Christ perfect ministry....they are not lost. This is one of the aspects of OSAS.

 

[Cygnus]

The sad fact is that OSNAS has no concept of spiritual fellowship, and that many references in the Bible to "death" refer to loss of fellowship. They only see 2 states: saved or lost. Fellowship has no place in their theology.

One nice thing about the OSNAS sect is that if they are truly saved now...their bad theology won't cause them to be lost.

 

[FreeGrace]

Saved Christ deniers.
It's laughable.

Given what Jesus and Paul and other writers have said, it's laughable to claim that one can lose eternal life.

But that is what the church has shrunk to in these end times. It's a feel good theology for this time of rampant porn and substance addictions. Christ is still the answer for deliverance from those things, not theologies that make it so you can continue in unbelief and sin and still be saved.

That's the real motivation for OSNAS. They just can't stand the thought that someone is going to "get away" with sin. Meaning, get into heaven. But that simply demonstrates a flawed view of God's grace.

God's grace was given us to believe and overcome sin.

And here is an example of OSNAS's flawed view. It doesn't even know what God's grace is for. But the Bible tells us in plain language:
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— Eph 2

Grace is WHY we can be saved. There is no other way. We can't earn it, nor do we deserve it. That's grace.

But OSNAS claims that we earn loss of salvation and deserve loss of salvation by ceasing to believe, or certain sins.

But the truth is that we are saved by grace and we are kept by that very same grace.

If salvation were by works or keeping the Law, then we earn and deserve salvation by our actions.

In the same way, if salvation can be lost, then we earn and deserve that loss by our actions.

Grace is not a license for a person to languish in sin and unbelief and still have Christ.

No, it isn't. And that's WHY the Bible is so clear about God's discipline for rebellious children. Paul noted the various kinds of God's discipline in 1 Cor 11:30 - That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep.

Notice the progression: weak, sick, death. Sounds like fun, huh?

Which is why we have Heb 12:11 - No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.

So again, God's discipline sounds like fun, huh.

Therefore, no one gets away with anything.

That is a lie.

The lie is to claim that one can lose eternal life.

Paul said grace teaches us to say 'no' to ungodliness.

Look at Heb 12:11. God's discipline "produces a harvest of righteousness and peace". But for WHO? "those who have been trained by it".

Question: has everyone who has been disciplined been trained by it? See my point? The point of discipline is to train. But not everyone responds to that training. That includes believers. King Saul is one example. So the Lord killed him. 1 Chron 10:13,14

But Hyper-grace says it's a license to say 'yes' to unbelief and sin and still have eternal life.

There is no "license". Such talk is nonsense. Jesus was clear about the result of being given eternal life: THEY WILL NEVER PERISH. John 10:28

But OSNAS does not believe His words.