Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works

[FreeGrace]

One nice thing about the OSNAS sect is that if they are truly saved now...their bad theology won't cause them to be lost.

Right. But, sadly, they will surely lose out on rewards in eternity because of their false teaching.

 

[Cygnus]

Saved Christ deniers.
It's laughable. But that is what the church has shrunk to in these end times. It's a feel good theology for this time of rampant porn and substance addictions. Christ is still the answer for deliverance from those things, not theologies that make it so you can continue in unbelief and sin and still be saved. God's grace was given us to believe and overcome sin. Grace is not a license for a person to languish in sin and unbelief and still have Christ. That is a lie. Paul said grace teaches us to say 'no' to ungodliness. But Hyper-grace says it's a license to say 'yes' to unbelief and sin and still have eternal life. It's the mother of all ear tickling doctrines.

"But Hyper-grace says it's a license to say 'yes' to unbelief and sin and still have eternal life. It's the mother of all ear tickling doctrines."

No it doesn't. It's what you say. So stop.
All of our sins are forgiven..past, present and future. BUT, and a very big BUT...if what you said about "hyper grace" is truly ones belief..then that individual should check on their belief about Christ and salvation because they probably don't have it. When God changes you God makes you a new creature. Changes your heart. Wht would a God changed person want to live this so-called "hyper grace" lifestyle you speak of?

 

[Cygnus]

Right. But, sadly, they will surely lose out on rewards in eternity because of their false teaching.

I have to agree. The OSNAS sect does good to keep their butts saved rather than do good for the glory of Christ. It's a form of legalism that captivates them and gets their eyes off of Jesus and onto themselves.

 

[Gregg T]

I did not use that chapter to justify lose of salvation. You may think I was, but I had no such intention.

If you remember, you asked me how Jesus would say "I never knew you" to a believer who turned away. I posted that passage to show that those who turn away from God will be not rememberd by Him.

Do you believe the righteousness spoken of in Ezekiel is self righteousness and not righteousness in God?

In Ps 88, the writer knew it was temporary loss of fellowship, and his perception, as though the Lord, the God of His salvation did not remember him. Ps 88 takes place while the writer is living, not after death at judgement.

What passage in Eze. are you refering to?

 

[Gregg T]

'Never' means never, and 'knew' means knew. I did not redefine them. As a matter of fact I thought you'd recognize from 1 John the definition of 'knowing' I used. And I pointed you to Jesus' own words in the parable of the sower where he talks about those who believed but who stopped believing and never matured to 'knowing' God. God not 'knowing' you does not only mean you never believed. The parable of the sower shows us it can also means you stopped believing and never matured.

I understand that the seed on rocky soil represents someone who believed about Jesus, but never believed into Him.

 

[Nathan]

Right. We disagree and I explained why your view cannot be correct. If he was writing about soul death, that isn't even possible, since unbelievers will spend an eternity in conscious torment. That isn't soul death. They will also be permanently separated from God, which is spiritual death, but we're born that way, so there is no way Zeke could be speaking of spiritual death from acts of sin.


Yep. God's discipline includes physical death. 1 Cor 11:30


Right. God won't kill him.

Are you aware of how King Saul died? Sure, he fell on his sword (1 Chron 10:4). We'd call that suicide. But this is how the Bible describes it: 1 Chron 10:13-14
13 Saul died because he was unfaithful to the Lord; he did not keep the word of the Lord and even consulted a medium for guidance, 14 and did not inquire of the Lord. So the Lord put him to death and turned the kingdom over to David son of Jesse.

That's what Ezekiel was speaking about.

Soul death is possible. You would have to deny what Jesus said to believe it is not. You may deny that Ezekiel is speaking about the soul, but those reading can rest assured that they are actually seeing the plain words found in that passage that says "soul". I am not sure why you deny that the word "soul" means "soul"? Is there more than one soul in a man?

Mat 10:28
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Man can only kill the body. God can destroy both body and soul. Jesus makes a distinction between the body(physical) and soul(spiritual). Ezekiel is speaking of the soul(spiritual), not body(physical). We cannot re-write Scripture to make it fit our theology.

Job 33
“But now, hear my speech, O Job,
and listen to all my words.

Behold, I open my mouth;
the tongue in my mouth speaks.

My words declare the uprightness of my heart,
and what my lips know they speak sincerely.

The Spirit of God has made me,
and the breath of the Almighty gives me life.

Answer me, if you can;
set your words in order before me; take your stand.

Behold, I am toward God as you are;
I too was pinched off from a piece of clay.

Behold, no fear of me need terrify you;
my pressure will not be heavy upon you.

“Surely you have spoken in my ears,
and I have heard the sound of your words.

You say, ‘I am pure, without transgression;
I am clean, and there is no iniquity in me.

Behold, he finds occasions against me,
he counts me as his enemy,

he puts my feet in the stocks
and watches all my paths.’

“Behold, in this you are not right. I will answer you,
for God is greater than man.

Why do you contend against him,
saying, ‘He will answer none of man’s words’?

For God speaks in one way,
and in two, though man does not perceive it.

In a dream, in a vision of the night,
when deep sleep falls on men,
while they slumber on their beds,

then he opens the ears of men
and terrifies them with warnings,

that he may turn man aside from his deed
and conceal pride from a man;

he keeps back his soul from the pit,
his life from perishing by the sword.

“Man is also rebuked with pain on his bed
and with continual strife in his bones,

so that his life loathes bread,
and his appetite the choicest food.

His flesh is so wasted away that it cannot be seen,
and his bones that were not seen stick out.

His soul draws near the pit,
and his life to those who bring death.

If there be for him an angel,
a mediator, one of the thousand,
to declare to man what is right for him,

and he is merciful to him, and says,
‘Deliver him from going down into the pit;
I have found a ransom;

let his flesh become fresh with youth;
let him return to the days of his youthful vigor’;

then man prays to God, and he accepts him;
he sees his face with a shout of joy,
and he restores to man his righteousness.

He sings before men and says:
‘I sinned and perverted what was right,
and it was not repaid to me.

He has redeemed my soul from going down into the pit,
and my life shall look upon the light.’

“Behold, God does all these things,
twice, three times, with a man,

to bring back his soul from the pit,
that he may be lighted with the light of life.

Pay attention, O Job, listen to me;
be silent, and I will speak.

If you have any words, answer me;
speak, for I desire to justify you.

If not, listen to me;
be silent, and I will teach you wisdom.”

God most assuredly brings discipline to us when we stray from Him. He does this in order to keep our soul from the pit(hell). If we do not turn aside from our wandering, if we deny God and His Spirit, then we deny His redemption. A man cannot deny God's redemption and also be redeemed.

 

[Nathan]

In Ps 88, the writer knew it was temporary loss of fellowship, and his perception, as though the Lord, the God of His salvation did not remember him. Ps 88 takes place while the writer is living, not after death at judgement.

What passage in Eze. are you refering to?

Yea, I still think that you are confused as to how this conversation started about Psalm 88. Its fine. We can move on.

Ezekiel 18 is what I am referring to.

 

[FreeGrace]

"But Hyper-grace says it's a license to say 'yes' to unbelief and sin and still have eternal life. It's the mother of all ear tickling doctrines."

No it doesn't. It's what you say. So stop.

OSNAS won't stop.

All of our sins are forgiven..past, present and future. BUT, and a very big BUT...if what you said about "hyper grace" is truly ones belief..then that individual should check on their belief about Christ and salvation because they probably don't have it. When God changes you God makes you a new creature. Changes your heart. Wht would a God changed person want to live this so-called "hyper grace" lifestyle you speak of?

Only when they are living in the power of their still active sinful nature, the one they were born with. Like King David, who, as a mature believer, committed rape and murder.

Such believers are grieving (Eph 4:30) and quenching (1 Thess 5:19) the Holy Spirit, rather than being filled with the Holy Spirit. But OSNAS doesn't understand this, either.

 

[FreeGrace]

Soul death is possible.

Then please explain the conscious soul torment that will occur in the lake of fire forever.

You would have to deny what Jesus said to believe it is not. You may deny that Ezekiel is speaking about the soul, but those reading can rest assured that they are actually seeing the plain words found in that passage that says "soul". I am not sure why you deny that the word "soul" means "soul"? Is there more than one soul in a man?

What is probably not known is that in the Greek, the word translated "soul" is used for the "person". I can't speak for the Hebrew. But it's clear from the Bible that there will be conscious soul torment in the lake of fire.

The lake of fire is an eternal torment. So the soul cannot die. And the physical body won't be there.

 

[Nathan]

Then please explain the conscious soul torment that will occur in the lake of fire forever.


What is probably not known is that in the Greek, the word translated "soul" is used for the "person". I can't speak for the Hebrew. But it's clear from the Bible that there will be conscious soul torment in the lake of fire.

The lake of fire is an eternal torment. So the soul cannot die. And the physical body won't be there.

I cannot explain conscious soul torment. I am not God. I just know that if Jesus said they would be destroyed, then they will be destroyed.

This is going way off topic, feel free to start another one on it if you want to continue the discussion. All I know is that the greatest lie ever told to man is that he would not die. I do not think anyone who is wise will believe that a man is eternal apart from Christ.

Only God is eternal. Man has a beginning and an end. Man was created - its best we not go beyond that, thinking we can be like God.

You may be able to help yourself see the truth if you ask yourself a simple question. If something is destroyed, does it still exist?

 

[Nathan]

What is probably not known is that in the Greek, the word translated "soul" is used for the "person".

As for this. Your correct. The soul is who the person really is, not their physical bodies. That is why Jesus said;

Mat 15:17-18
Do you not see that whatever goes into the mouth passes into the stomach and is expelled? But what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, and this defiles a person.

The heart of man is the motivation center of the soul - not the physical heart. That is why in Ezekiel, when God is speaking of a man who does wicked, and one who does righteousness, He is speaking of the soul(which He already prefaced at the beginning of the chapter). God is speaking of the soul dying.

This is not a 'break' in fellowship. We would not say that when our physical bodies die, that they simply break 'fellowship' with our souls. So we cannot insert a description of breaking fellowship when we speak of the soul dying. The soul will die, the same as the body. I am not saying they happen at the same time - but we cannot say that the soul dying does not mean death - which is ceasing to have life.

Simply put, when the soul dies it ceases to have life. There is simply no way around this without adding to or taking away from the Scriptures.

 

[FreeGrace]

I cannot explain conscious soul torment.

And it exists.

I am not God.

Absolutely not.

I just know that if Jesus said they would be destroyed, then they will be destroyed.

Please don't make the mistake of equating "destroy" with "annihilate".

This is going way off topic, feel free to start another one on it if you want to continue the discussion. All I know is that the greatest lie ever told to man is that he would not die.

No, the greatest lie is from Satan which is that man can earn salvation.

I do not think anyone who is wise will believe that a man is eternal apart from Christ.

Tell that to all the people in Rev 20:15 who will be thrown into the "eternal fire".

Only God is eternal. Man has a beginning and an end. Man was created - its best we not go beyond that, thinking we can be like God.

Seems your view is soul annihilation. Correct?

You may be able to help yourself see the truth if you ask yourself a simple question. If something is destroyed, does it still exist?

Sure. Simply visit your nearby auto wrecking yard. There are thousands of examples of destroyed autos. Are they there, or gone?

Consider the word for 'destroy' in Matt 10:28 -
NT:622 apollumi (ap-ol'-loo-mee); from NT:575 and the base of NT:3639; to destroy fully (reflexively, to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively:

KJV - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

So, what is lost in hell? One's freedom.

 

[FreeGrace]

As for this. Your correct. The soul is who the person really is, not their physical bodies. That is why Jesus said;

Mat 15:17-18
Do you not see that whatever goes into the mouth passes into the stomach and is expelled? But what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, and this defiles a person.

The heart of man is the motivation center of the soul - not the physical heart. That is why in Ezekiel, when God is speaking of a man who does wicked, and one who does righteousness, He is speaking of the soul(which He already prefaced at the beginning of the chapter). God is speaking of the soul dying.

This is not a 'break' in fellowship. We would not say that when our physical bodies die, that they simply break 'fellowship' with our souls.

The Bible speaks of 'death' in a number of ways. Let's start with physical death; separation of the soul from the body, as defined in James 2:26.

Then, there is spiritual death; separation from God. Then there is 'death' as in loss of fellowship with God regarding one of His children. This is clearly stated in the prodigal son parable. The father said even said "For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found."

See the comparison? Jesus equated being "dead and alive" with being "lost and found". The son was ALWAYS alive in the parable. What had died was fellowship with the father. As to "lost and found", fellowship was lost and was restored when the son returned.

So we cannot insert a description of breaking fellowship when we speak of the soul dying.

One must understand how "soul" is being used before making any kind of statement about death in relation to the soul. Man's soul will exist forever, either with God because they received the gift of eternal life, or in the lake of fire, separated from God, because they never received the gift of eternal life. Rev 20:15

The soul will die, the same as the body. I am not saying they happen at the same time - but we cannot say that the soul dying does not mean death - which is ceasing to have life.

If true, then souls are annihilated. The Bible teaches eternal soul torment in Rev 20:10 regarding the devil and the anti-christ by the phrase "day and night forever and ever". At the end of the chapter we read of humans who's names are not in the book of life being cast into the same lake of fire. Why assume they will be annihilated, unlike Satan or the anti-christ, who is human?

Simply put, when the soul dies it ceases to have life.

OK, then consider the other term the Bible uses for the lake of fire; second DEATH. So, there you go, souls in the lake of fire experience the SECOND DEATH. But they will definitely be conscious of their condition.

There is simply no way around this without adding to or taking away from the Scriptures.

And I've shown how one doesn't need to go around this, but rather rightly divide the word of truth.

 

[Nathan]

And it exists.


Absolutely not.


Please don't make the mistake of equating "destroy" with "annihilate".


No, the greatest lie is from Satan which is that man can earn salvation.


Tell that to all the people in Rev 20:15 who will be thrown into the "eternal fire".


Seems your view is soul annihilation. Correct?


Sure. Simply visit your nearby auto wrecking yard. There are thousands of examples of destroyed autos. Are they there, or gone?

Consider the word for 'destroy' in Matt 10:28 -
NT:622 apollumi (ap-ol'-loo-mee); from NT:575 and the base of NT:3639; to destroy fully (reflexively, to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively:

KJV - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

So, what is lost in hell? One's freedom.

The Bible speaks of 'death' in a number of ways. Let's start with physical death; separation of the soul from the body, as defined in James 2:26.

Then, there is spiritual death; separation from God. Then there is 'death' as in loss of fellowship with God regarding one of His children. This is clearly stated in the prodigal son parable. The father said even said "For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found."

See the comparison? Jesus equated being "dead and alive" with being "lost and found". The son was ALWAYS alive in the parable. What had died was fellowship with the father. As to "lost and found", fellowship was lost and was restored when the son returned.


One must understand how "soul" is being used before making any kind of statement about death in relation to the soul. Man's soul will exist forever, either with God because they received the gift of eternal life, or in the lake of fire, separated from God, because they never received the gift of eternal life. Rev 20:15


If true, then souls are annihilated. The Bible teaches eternal soul torment in Rev 20:10 regarding the devil and the anti-christ by the phrase "day and night forever and ever". At the end of the chapter we read of humans who's names are not in the book of life being cast into the same lake of fire. Why assume they will be annihilated, unlike Satan or the anti-christ, who is human?


OK, then consider the other term the Bible uses for the lake of fire; second DEATH. So, there you go, souls in the lake of fire experience the SECOND DEATH. But they will definitely be conscious of their condition.


And I've shown how one doesn't need to go around this, but rather rightly divide the word of truth.

If you want to talk about this more, with me, start another thread. I am not going to go into here as it is way off the topic, not even close to it.

 

[Jim Parker]

Why, so you can not see them again?

Eggs Ackley

 

[Nathan]

I understand that the seed on rocky soil represents someone who believed about Jesus, but never believed into Him.

Consider this.

Jesus said the 'seed' was the word.

Mar 4:14
The sower sows the word.

So we know that the seed that is sown is the same - for all 4 soil types.

The question that has to be asked is does the word of God come to life in an unbeliever?

The seed brought forth life in 3 of the 4 soils.

Jhn 6:53
So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.

Second question you have to ask yourself, does life exist in an unbeliever?

 

[Jim Parker]

The seed brought forth life in 3 of the 4 soils.

 

[FreeGrace]

Jethro Bodine said: ↑
Why, so you can not see them again?

Eggs Ackley

Y'all are seeing things. That aren't there.

 

[Jim Parker]

Jethro Bodine said: ↑
Why, so you can not see them again?

Y'all are seeing things. That aren't there.

What's not there or anywhere at all is OSAS.

 

[MarkT]

v.28 ends his dissertation about Israel. v.29 relates to boths Jews and Gentiles. Paul had already described 3 of God's gifts, which are available for both Jew and Gentile. And as for God's call, that too is for both Jew and Gentile.

Consider Rom 1:5 - Through him and for his name's sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith.

So, within the confines of the context of the letter to the Romans, Paul notes that both God's call and God's gifts are for both Jew and Gentile.

Proving that 11:29 isn't limited to just Jew, as is claimed by OSNAS in an attempt to dissociate 11:29 from 6:23.

Actually it continues to vs. 11:32 and vs. 28 and vs. 29 are connected by the word 'for' as in 'because' the gifts and the call of God were promised to Abraham and his descendants and God's word can not be undone. This is specific to Abraham and his descendants. What does he mean by the gifts and the call of God can not be undone as far as they are concerned? It means God will show them mercy provided they show mercy. Romans 11:30-32

Of course prophecy is a gift, a higher gift as Paul said. 1 Cor. 12:31

And God spoke by the prophets in the OT. 2 Kings 24:2