I think you're confusing "doing something" with performing works of merit, with placing your faith (believing) in Him, which is non-meritorious.
When one believes they HAVE DONE SOMETHING.
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
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Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works
- Thread starter Jim Parker
- Start date
When one believes they HAVE DONE SOMETHING.
And that is "doing something". Trusting is doing something. But it's not a work.
OK, maybe we're getting somewhere.
God did something; He convicted you of sin. Then you did something; you believed in Christ.
Are you seeing the point?
I still have salvation because Jesus promised it. John 10:28. I will never perish because He gave me eternal life on the basis of my beleiving in Him.
Nathan
Member
I know the point. I believe in Him, and only in Him as my salvation. I do not believe in something I did, or something I do, for my salvation.
1Jo 5:11
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.
God gives us life in His Son. To leave His Son, and think you possess life because of something you did, is a works based salvation.
Nathan
Member
Phl 1:21
For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
1Co 15:55
“O death, where is your victory?
O death, where is your sting?”
1Jo 2:15
Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
Jhn 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
Heb 3:7-11
Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says,
“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion,
on the day of testing in the wilderness,
where your fathers put me to the test
and saw my works for forty years.
Therefore I was provoked with that generation,
and said, ‘They always go astray in their heart;
they have not known my ways.’
As I swore in my wrath,
‘They shall not enter my rest.’”
Heb 3:12-15
Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end. As it is said, “Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”
If faith is reckoned as righteousness, and a man loses faith, is he still righteous? Is he still clothed with the garments of salvation? Is he still covered with the robe of righteousness? Isa. 61:10
Isaiah 61:10
I will greatly rejoice in the Lord, my soul shall exult in my God; for he has clothed me with the garments of salvation, he has covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decks himself with a garland, and as a bride adorns herself with her jewels.
The word of the LORD came to David.
Psalm 101:3
I will not set before my eyes anything that is base. I hate the work of those who fall away; it shall not cleave to me.
dirtfarmer
Member
to anyone, dirtfarmer here
Can anyone quote scripture that specifically states that a person can break the seal of the Holy Spirit and resurrect the old nature that was crucified with Christ? We are not sinners because we sin, God has declared all under sin, therefore we sin because we are sinners.
Also, scripture never states a believer is a sinner, but it does state that we were(past tense) sinners, but now, we are saints of God. If you want to use 1 Timothy 1:15 to say that Paul states that he is still a sinner, then you need to study it a little deeper. What Paul is saying is that he is the first, pattern, or blueprint of those that are saved by grace through faith. Do you really believe that Paul though himself a worse sinner than Judas Iscariot?
The only one that I have found in scripture that can break God's seals, is Jesus Christ. The only seals that I can find in scripture that he breaks, are the seals on the "title deed" to the earth in Revelation, not the seal of the Holy Spirit that the believer is sealed with unto the day of redemption
Can anyone quote scripture that specifically states that a person can break the seal of the Holy Spirit and resurrect the old nature that was crucified with Christ? We are not sinners because we sin, God has declared all under sin, therefore we sin because we are sinners.
Also, scripture never states a believer is a sinner, but it does state that we were(past tense) sinners, but now, we are saints of God. If you want to use 1 Timothy 1:15 to say that Paul states that he is still a sinner, then you need to study it a little deeper. What Paul is saying is that he is the first, pattern, or blueprint of those that are saved by grace through faith. Do you really believe that Paul though himself a worse sinner than Judas Iscariot?
The only one that I have found in scripture that can break God's seals, is Jesus Christ. The only seals that I can find in scripture that he breaks, are the seals on the "title deed" to the earth in Revelation, not the seal of the Holy Spirit that the believer is sealed with unto the day of redemption
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Come on Dirtfarmer,
You're more intelligent than this!!
Could you find me a scripture that says "believe in Jesus one time in your life, and you'll be saved forever".
Neither one will be found, as you well know.
But the bible is full of warnings. Could it be that these warnings were ONLY for living a good life and having fellowship, or could it be that tehy were repeated over and over because the salvation of our very soul depends on following these instructions?
This morning I happened to come across Mathew 3:7-10
John the Baptist. Yes, even HE gave us warnings. He was speaking to the Pharisees and Sadducees and telling them that it did not matter if they thought they were sons of Abraham. So what? It's an internal change that Jesus DEMANDS.
John says the the axe is already laid at the root of the trees that do not bear good fruit and will be cut down and thrown into the fire.
So, yes, we are saved by grace through faith, but then we are REQUIRED by Jesus, not REQUESTED, to follow His commandments and do our good works.
If we walk away from this, we are once again lost.
It is possible, though not probable, to abandon God. The N.T. is full of "IF'S".
Here are a couple:
2 Peter 1:5-10 IF we do these things we will never fall...
Hebrews 3:12-14 IF we hold firmly till the end...
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
FreeGrace,
Look what you posted:
John 10:28. I will never perish because He gave me eternal life on the basis of my beleiving in Him.
And right you are. As long as you BELIEVE in Him, you WILL have eternal life.
Just on this very verse alone, it shows that you could stop believing in Him.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
What is a work?
To me a work is doing what we would do anyway, but we do it for God.
It's something that is pleasing to God.
It's something we do that promotes the Kingdom of God.
It could be the smalles thing, and it could be going to the missionary fields.
So is trusting God a work?
It's pleasing to God.
It's promoting the Kingdom.
It sounds like it.
But why is it important to know whether or not it is a work?
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Absolutely, Sister! Total agreement. The blood that saves is the blood shed on the cross. (I tend to agree with you about the transubstantiation of the wine, while not 100% on it as you are too...there probably is truth in it wherein on the spiritual level something happens to the wine and it is transformed into the real deal and becomes spiritual truth and life in the blood)
However, both you and Chessman skipped over the body/flesh part of my post and question. Everyone always glosses over the other part. I've been shown that only half of the truth is being taught about communion, about the blood of Jesus is all that is being taught. There is another part that Jesus addressed, His body, the bread.
Matthew 26:26
26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.../
...which is broken for you, this do in remembrance of Me.../ (1 Corinthians 11:24)
Now pay attention to the wording between these two scriptures. The first, the prophecy. The second, the fulfillment.
Isaiah 53:5
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.../
1 Peter 2:24
24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.../
...we are healed...
...ye were healed...
Isn't that awesome, Sister?! Somewhere in between are and were is, IS, as in now. It's highly probable that many Christians through ignorance are walking around sick. Because they do not receive the healing spiritually through Christs body in communion. No wonder we're supposed to partake communion every day.
Praise the Lord!
Hi Edward,
I've been meaning to get back to this. Not sure if it's been answered, but here's my understanding of this:
1 Peter 2:24
Mathew 26:26 ------> 1 Corinthians 11:24
Isaiah 53:5
You've already done all the work and have gathered all the verses. I'm sure you already know what they mean, but it's good to talk about what God has done for us and not only debate all the time.
Isaiah
Jesus carried our sins on Him. He carried all our problems, all our difigurements, everything that is wrong with us, He took these onto Hmself.
OUR sins ripped His body and made Him bleed. God put the punishment that was due US, onto HIM, so that we could be seen and accepted by God Father. Through the bruises of Jesus we are healed ---
The healing could be spiritual, physical, emotional. All is possible with God. Jesus helps us to be strong is all 3 of these types of affliction.
Jesus carried all our shorcomings, whatever they might be.
Mathew to Corinthinas also speaks of the above. The fulfillment, as you said. Jesus body will be BROKEN for us. He was so broken when He got to Golgotha that He probably hardly looked human anymore. His body was broken for US.
When we take communion we should always remember what Jesus went through for us.
Also, when Jesus was on the cross, He said My God, My God, why have you forsaken me (Psalm 22).
I believe this was at the point that ALL SINS, from the beginning of time to the end of time, were placed on Him and God was not able to be part of Him and left Him. (we can't know this for sure).
And the verse in Peter tell us WHY all this had to be done.
By His stripes we are healed:
Physically, emotionally, spiritually.
God can heal us of anything if it be His will.
It not always is His will.. but certainly His death has given us the priviledge to be called Sons of God and to enter into His presence one day.
Thanks for posting this. It was such a blessing to me!
chessman
Member
Yep.Every born again believer has a birthrightThe Spirit is the guarantee of receiving it on that day of redemption.
Therefore since God guards it and guarantees it, can your (not Esau's) birthright fade?
Edward
2024 Supporter
Thank you, Sister. I like how you think and talk.
I came to the same conclusion you did, about when Jesus said My God, My God why has thou forsaken me? It was that moment that all the sins were upon Him, and God had to back off or turn away because of that. And Jesus felt that separation from God at that moment. That will be the real punishment and reward for man. The biggest punishment will be the separation from God, the creator. Something none of us have ever felt before, because we've always had the comfort of the Holy Spirit since our birth.
The other side of the coin is our reward of just being able to be and dwell in the very presence of Almighty God. I think that all or most of us have felt the presence of God before. It's a wonderful feeling, the best. Described as, total acceptance and love and belonging. and if you think about it...if the presence of God were a bowlful of oil, the most that any of us have ever felt was a teeny drop of the oil upon us. If he were to pour out the bowl upon us, we'd be a pile of ashes on the floor! It would destroy us. Scripture says so. That many will be destroyed by the brightness of His coming. That's why no flesh can see Him and live. We're not ready for that yet!
So if one ever feels like God is distant...don't be discouraged. That's not God being mean and staying away, that's God being merciful to us!
Blessings.
Yes, He is still righteous. Yes, He is still saved. We are a new creation in Christ,Born-again and sealed for the day of redemption.
I have faith in Christ to catch me if I fall. It is not faith that saves us. It is the object of our faith that saves us.........the Lord Jesus Christ,BY His grace.
The Father son relationship.
If your son had faith in you to catch him(because you promised him) in case he fell out of the tree he was climbing, got to the top,slipped and on the way down he screamed," your not going to catch me dad, you can't catch me dad!!!!" Would you still catch him?
Psalm 37:24~~New American Standard Bible
When he falls, he will not be hurled headlong, Because the LORD is the One who holds his hand.
Nathan
Member
My birthright can't fade - I'm not sure why that would even be a question?
Maybe the birthright is lost on our culture today. We are a culture that thinks we are entitled to just about everything. Esau felt much the same way.
If I sell my birthright to the pleasures of this world, then it is no longer mine. It's really quite simple.
1 Corinthians 15:22 (ESV)
For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
Only in Christ do we receive our birthright.
Nathan
Member
Big difference between falling and forsaking.
It's very presumptuous to think that if we choose to have faith in something else then it is still counted as righteousness. This has been disproven many times over in the OT.
King David came close to death because of it. He understood the power of presumptuous thinking.
Psalms 19
1 The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky above proclaims his handiwork.
2 Day to day pours out speech, and night to night reveals knowledge.
3 There is no speech, nor are there words, whose voice is not heard.
4 Their voice goes out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them he has set a tent for the sun,
5 which comes out like a bridegroom leaving his chamber, and, like a strong man, runs its course with joy.
6 Its rising is from the end of the heavens, and its circuit to the end of them, and there is nothing hidden from its heat.
7 The law of the LORD is perfect, reviving the soul; the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple;
8 the precepts of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart; the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes;
9 the fear of the LORD is clean, enduring forever; the rules of the LORD are true, and righteous altogether.
10 More to be desired are they than gold, even much fine gold; sweeter also than honey and drippings of the honeycomb.
11 Moreover, by them is your servant warned; in keeping them there is great reward.
12 Who can discern his errors? Declare me innocent from hidden faults.
13 Keep back your servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me! Then I shall be blameless, and innocent of great transgression.
14 Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be acceptable in your sight, O LORD, my rock and my redeemer.
It seems my point still isn't being understood. Why believing, you've done something. But something that is non-meritorious.
A jailer wanted to know what he MUST DO to be saved, and Paul answered, "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved".
That's what one MUST DO to be saved.
Amen!! Excellent point!!
Come on w. Same for you.
His challenge is to prove from Scripture that God's seal (the indwelling Holy Spirit) on His own possession can be broken, for any reason. That's a fair challenge. And an impossible one to prove, since the Bible does not teach that the Holy Spirit can be removed from any person so sealed. Period.
Further, the plain language of Eph 1:14 and 4:30 and 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5 tell us that this seal is for the day of redemption. That's what we're sealed FOR.
iow, if this seal can be broken, then God doesn't keep His promise.
Eph 1:14
who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession — to the praise of his glory.
NIV
Eph 1:14
who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.
NASB
Eph 1:14
14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.
ESV
The ESV is especially straightforward in its wording.
How can one who claims to believe the Bible (including this verse) also believe that they can lose salvation? I do not understand that.
They have been explained.
Why haven't any of these warnings said so in plain language?
Consider this verse:
Eph 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption
If such egregious behavior doesn't break the seal, what on earth can? And I mean from Scripture.
For salvation? Where is that in Scripture?
Here is what IS in Scripture:
John 10:28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand
So, those given eternal life will never perish. That's very plainly what Jesus said. So how can further demands (as you've called them) be true for salvation, given what Jesus promises here? Please explain.