Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works

[Jim Parker]

Correct.

So, the birthright we should not despise, which guarantees us what we will receive(indicated by the 'guarantee' of our inheritance), is representative of our inheritance which comes at what point?

In other words, when do 'we' take actual possession of our what our birthright guarantees us?

It seems to me that we have it now.
Right now, those who believe have been enlightened, have tasted the heavenly gift, have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come. (Heb 6:4-5)

 

[Nathan]

It seems to me that we have it now.
Right now, those who believe have been enlightened, have tasted the heavenly gift, have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come. (Heb 6:4-5)

Yep, but just like with all the others who have come before us, this is all by faith. We have it through faith, but we won't posses it till the day of redemption

Romans 8
18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us.
19 For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God.
20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope
21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now.
23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.
24 For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees?
25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.

 

[Nathan]

Background on how the fathers of faith understood this;

Hebrews 11
13 These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.
14 For people who speak thus make it clear that they are seeking a homeland.
15 If they had been thinking of that land from which they had gone out, they would have had opportunity to return.
16 But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

"...each one’s word becomes their own message." (Jeremiah 23:36 NIV)

21“I did not send these prophets,
But they ran.
I did not speak to them,
But they prophesied.

22“But if they had stood in My council,
Then they would have announced My words to My people,
And would have turned them back from their evil way
And from the evil of their deeds.

(Jeremiah 23:21-22 NASB)

 

[FreeGrace]

You prove to yourself that you believe it is meritorious even when you deny it.

That is ridiculous. I've done no such thing. Please cease fro making stuff up.

If you believe that you cannot be denied before the Father, after leaving the faith and denying Christ, based on something you did at a point in time - then you show yourself to believe what you did has merit.

This is a convoluted and conflated sentence.

First part of the sentence: I understand what it means to "be denied before the Father". It sure isn't loss of salvation, as some opine.

Second part of the sentence: I think you've got it backwards. It's those who think if they cease to believe they cease to be saved, which shows that it's THEY who think that their faith is meritorious.

 

[Nathan]

That is ridiculous. I've done no such thing. Please cease fro making stuff up.


This is a convoluted and conflated sentence.

First part of the sentence: I understand what it means to "be denied before the Father". It sure isn't loss of salvation, as some opine.

Second part of the sentence: I think you've got it backwards. It's those who think if they cease to believe they cease to be saved, which shows that it's THEY who think that their faith is meritorious.

It's truth

Do you believe you possess eternal life apart from Christ?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

13But, “Ah, Lord GOD!” I said, “Look, the prophets are telling them, ‘You will not see the sword nor will you have famine, but I will give you lasting peace in this place.’” 14Then the LORD said to me, “The prophets are prophesying falsehood in My name. I have neither sent them nor commanded them nor spoken to them; they are prophesying to you a false vision, divination, futility and the deception of their own minds." (Jeremiah 14:13-14 NASB)

 

[FreeGrace]

You always leave out where our eternal life is. It is in Christ, not apart from Him.

No, I've never left that out. When I cite Rom 6:23, the entire verse is available for anyone to read. Why would I be trying to hide anything in the verse? That doesn't make sense.

The issue is for your side to prove from Scripture that those "having believed" and sealed IN HIM with the Holy Spirit can be unsealed. I'm still waiting for any evidence from Scripture.

1 John 5:11 (ESV) 11 And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

Amen.

1 John 5:12 (ESV) 12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

Amen.

Do you believe you can have eternal life if your not in Christ?

I believe that one who never believed in Christ can be in Christ. They have to believe in order to be sealed in Him.

And, from Eph 1:13,14, once sealed, always sealed.

No one has proven otherwise.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It's truth

Do you believe you possess eternal life apart from Christ?

You're wasting your time.

 

[FreeGrace]

chessman said: ↑
Your birthright is imperishable and undefiled and unfading, reserved in heaven for you.

How would you go about 'selling' something that is in Heaven reserverd "for you"?

How did Esau sell his before he acquired it?

Esau didn't sell his salvation, if that's your point. This is just trying to compare apples to bananas.

 

[Nathan]

No, I've never left that out. When I cite Rom 6:23, the entire verse is available for anyone to read. Why would I be trying to hide anything in the verse? That doesn't make sense.

The issue is for your side to prove from Scripture that those "having believed" and sealed IN HIM with the Holy Spirit can be unsealed. I'm still waiting for any evidence from Scripture.


Amen.


Amen.


I believe that one who never believed in Christ can be in Christ. They have to believe in order to be sealed in Him.

And, from Eph 1:13,14, once sealed, always sealed.

No one has proven otherwise.

You believe being sealed is something other than what it is. You have not proved being sealed is the same thing as being closed in a jar.

You have been given plenty of passages that show those who are not in Christ do not have eternal life.

1 John 5:12 (ESV) 12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this about your sentence:
"This is a convoluted and conflated sentence.

First part of the sentence: I understand what it means to "be denied before the Father". It sure isn't loss of salvation, as some opine.

Second part of the sentence: I think you've got it backwards. It's those who think if they cease to believe they cease to be saved, which shows that it's THEY who think that their faith is meritorious."

It's truth

No, it was convoluted and conflated.

Do you believe you possess eternal life apart from Christ?

No one does.

How can one who, having believed, and is sealed IN HIM with the Holy Spirit, become unsealed? And where is that stated in Scripture?

 

[FreeGrace]

You believe being sealed is something other than what it is.

My understanding of being sealed IN HIM with the Holy Spirit comes directly from Scripture. But please share your understanding of what it is, since you've charge me with not understanding what it is.

You have not proved being sealed is the same thing as being closed in a jar.

Why would anyone try to prove such a nonsense thing as that? I don't believe it is the same as being closed in a jar. In fact, it isn't anything like that. I can't wait to read your explanation of what it is. Then I'll compare it with what the Bible says about it.

You have been given plenty of passages that show those who are not in Christ do not have eternal life.

And I've never argued otherwise. But what your side continues to fail to provide is any evidence from Scripture that the sealing with the Holy Spirit can be unsealed. So why should anyone assume that it can be?

1 John 5:12 (ESV) 12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

How does this verse support your notion that one who has been sealed can be unsealed?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

"4For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ." (Jude 1:4 NASB)

 

[Nathan]

My understanding of being sealed IN HIM with the Holy Spirit comes directly from Scripture. But please share your understanding of what it is, since you've charge me with not understanding what it is.


Why would anyone try to prove such a nonsense thing as that? I don't believe it is the same as being closed in a jar. In fact, it isn't anything like that. I can't wait to read your explanation of what it is. Then I'll compare it with what the Bible says about it.


And I've never argued otherwise. But what your side continues to fail to provide is any evidence from Scripture that the sealing with the Holy Spirit can be unsealed. So why should anyone assume that it can be?


How does this verse support your notion that one who has been sealed can be unsealed?

Being sealed is simply a mark of authority God puts on those who are in Christ. Not based on something they did, but based on being in Christ.

If you forsake Christ, do you still have the seal? Can you have the seal outside of Christ?

 

[gr8grace3]

You're wasting your time.

Nice.

 

[Jim Parker]

We have it through faith, but we won't posses it till the day of redemption

Eggs Ackley

 

[gr8grace3]

to anyone, dirtfarmer here

Can anyone quote scripture that specifically states that a person can break the seal of the Holy Spirit and resurrect the old nature that was crucified with Christ? We are not sinners because we sin, God has declared all under sin, therefore we sin because we are sinners.

Also, scripture never states a believer is a sinner, but it does state that we were(past tense) sinners, but now, we are saints of God. If you want to use 1 Timothy 1:15 to say that Paul states that he is still a sinner, then you need to study it a little deeper. What Paul is saying is that he is the first, pattern, or blueprint of those that are saved by grace through faith. Do you really believe that Paul though himself a worse sinner than Judas Iscariot?

The only one that I have found in scripture that can break God's seals, is Jesus Christ. The only seals that I can find in scripture that he breaks, are the seals on the "title deed" to the earth in Revelation, not the seal of the Holy Spirit that the believer is sealed with unto the day of redemption

Your farming some good dirt Brother. Good Roots.:yes

 

[FreeGrace]

Being sealed is simply a mark of authority God puts on those who are in Christ. Not based on something they did, but based on being in Christ.

The Bible tells us exactly what the seal is and what it is for. It is not based on being in Christ, but the very means of HOW one is in Christ.

The seal is God's mark upon those who have believed. The believer is sealed IN HIM. But don't take my word for it. This is what the Bible says about it.

Eph 1:13 - And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit

So, when a person has believed, they are included in Christ and marked in Him with the Holy Spirit.

The next verse tells us what this seal is for.
14 - who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession — to the praise of his glory.

So, the sealing with the Holy Spirit guarantees our inheritance. That is eternal security. Which is communicated by the phrase, "until the redemption of those who are God's possession".

So, the one having believed is sealed, which is a guarantee of their inheritance. Because they are God's possession.

God marks His possession with the Holy Spirit. As a deposit which guarantees their inheritance.

If you forsake Christ, do you still have the seal?

Yes. What verse teaches that forsaking Christ means the seal is unsealed, or that the Holy Spirit leaves the person? Such an assumption is not taught in Scripture.

Can you have the seal outside of Christ?

No one can.

But the question that isn't being answered is where in Scripture do we read that one so sealed can be unsealed?

Why not?

 

[FreeGrace]

Nathan said: ↑
We have it through faith, but we won't posses it till the day of redemption

Eggs Ackley

What did Jesus mean in John 5:24 then?
"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life."

Did He really mean that, or not?