What's new
By:
Filters
Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works

wondering said:
FreeGrace,
Look what you posted:

John 10:28. I will never perish because He gave me eternal life on the basis of my beleiving in Him.

And right you are.
Click to expand...
yep.

As long as you BELIEVE in Him, you WILL have eternal life.
Click to expand...
Please review Jn 10:28. Jesus didn't say that. He said those He gives eternal life will never perish. Nothing about "as long as...". That is only an added opinion, and one without any Scriptural support.

Jesus was clear: those He gives eternal life will never perish. That's EXACTLY what He promised.

That is a promise to either believe, or to reject.

Just on this very verse alone, it shows that you could stop believing in Him.
Click to expand...
That isn't my argument at all. Of course some will not continue to believe. Jesus made that clear in Luke 8:13.

But, He promised that those He gives eternal life will never perish.

Now, just one question. To whom does He give eternal life, and WHEN does He give it? Please answer.
 
wondering said:
What is a work?
Click to expand...
Paul has answered that question:
Rom 4:4 - Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation

A work is something which is recompensed. Like one's paycheck. They perform work and receive wages (payment).

To me a work is doing what we would do anyway, but we do it for God.
It's something that is pleasing to God.
It's something we do that promotes the Kingdom of God.
It could be the smalles thing, and it could be going to the missionary fields.
Click to expand...
The Bible teaches that believers were created for "good works"
Eph 2:10 - For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Notice that these good works are for believers, those created in Christ Jesus. And not in order to BE created in Christ Jesus.

So is trusting God a work?
Click to expand...
Paul answered that question as well:
Rom 4:5-6 - However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.

So, we see that trust (faith, believing) is not a work.

It's pleasing to God.
Click to expand...
Yes, faith pleases God (Heb 11:6) and is not a work.

It's promoting the Kingdom.
Click to expand...
No, faith does not promote the Kingdom. Works do. For which we were created in Christ.

But why is it important to know whether or not it is a work?
Click to expand...
Is it important to know what the Bible teaches? I'd say absolutely yes!

What the Bible teaches needs to be understood. I think that is very important.[/QUOTE]
 
FreeGrace said:
It seems my point still isn't being understood. Why believing, you've done something. But something that is non-meritorious.

A jailer wanted to know what he MUST DO to be saved, and Paul answered, "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved".

That's what one MUST DO to be saved.
Click to expand...

Paul was correct. If one does not believe, then they will not be saved.

Galatians 5:5 (ESV)
For through the Spirit, by faith, we ourselves eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness.
 
FreeGrace said:
Now, just one question. To whom does He give eternal life, and WHEN does He give it? Please answer.
Click to expand...

John 3:16 (ESV)
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Luke 18:29 (ESV) 29 And he said to them, "Truly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or wife or brothers or parents or children, for the sake of the kingdom of God,

Luke 18:30 (ESV) 30 who will not receive many times more in this time, and in the age to come eternal life."
 
I asked this:
"Now, just one question. To whom does He give eternal life, and WHEN does He give it? Please answer."
Nathan said:
John 3:16 (ESV)
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Luke 18:29 (ESV) 29 And he said to them, "Truly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or wife or brothers or parents or children, for the sake of the kingdom of God,

Luke 18:30 (ESV) 30 who will not receive many times more in this time, and in the age to come eternal life."
Click to expand...
Well, actually, there were 2 questions. The first was answered by John 3:16. The second question was not even addressed.

Neither verse in Luke has any relevance to the second question, so I don't understand why they were quoted.

The question is WHEN does God give eternal life?

The answer is found in John 5:24 - "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

So, WHEN one believes, is WHEN one HAS eternal life. So eternal life is given at the beginning of our salvation.

And Jesus promised that those who are given eternal life will never perish.

So, from the beginning of our salvation, WHEN we receive eternal life, one will never perish. That is eternal security.
 
gr8grace3 said:
Yes, He is still righteous. Yes, He is still saved. We are a new creation in Christ,Born-again and sealed for the day of redemption.

I have faith in Christ to catch me if I fall. It is not faith that saves us. It is the object of our faith that saves us.........the Lord Jesus Christ,BY His grace.
Click to expand...

If we turn to Him.
Isaiah 45:22
“Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other.

Psalm 78:22
because they had no faith in God, and did not trust his saving power.
1 Peter 1:5
who by God’s power are guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

God's salvation is through faith in his Son. So we are saved by faith. Faith is active.
James 2:22
You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works,

The Father son relationship.

If your son had faith in you to catch him(because you promised him) in case he fell out of the tree he was climbing, got to the top,slipped and on the way down he screamed," your not going to catch me dad, you can't catch me dad!!!!" Would you still catch him?

Psalm 37:24~~New American Standard Bible
When he falls, he will not be hurled headlong, Because the LORD is the One who holds his hand.
Click to expand...

You have faith in Christ to catch you if you fall? What do you mean 'catch you if you fall'? Do you mean catch you before you lose faith? So you don't lose faith? Or in terms of salvation, do you mean he will rescue you if you fall? I believe he will keep us from falling. But if a man has fallen away, how will he rescue him?

Jesus gave us teachings and he taught us how to pray to keep us from evil. Why would you climb the tree if your Father said do not climb the tree or you will be destroyed, and you would do it anyway? Israel was almost destroyed because they would not follow the LORD. Lev. 26:14-39

RE. faith. Jesus said your faith has saved you. John 7:50 So how can you say faith does not save?

Romans 11:20
That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast only through faith.

And Paul said,
Hebrews 10:38
but my righteous one shall live by faith, and if he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him.”

Hebrews 10:39
But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and keep their souls.

So losing faith means destruction.
 
Last edited:
FreeGrace said:
And that is "doing" something. But just not that earns something.

We are saved by grace. So our action of believing is non-meritorious.
Click to expand...
You prove to yourself that you believe it is meritorious even when you deny it.

If you believe that you cannot be denied before the Father, after leaving the faith and denying Christ, based on something you did at a point in time - then you show yourself to believe what you did has merit.
 
FreeGrace said:
I asked this:
"Now, just one question. To whom does He give eternal life, and WHEN does He give it? Please answer."

Well, actually, there were 2 questions. The first was answered by John 3:16. The second question was not even addressed.

Neither verse in Luke has any relevance to the second question, so I don't understand why they were quoted.

The question is WHEN does God give eternal life?

The answer is found in John 5:24 - "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

So, WHEN one believes, is WHEN one HAS eternal life. So eternal life is given at the beginning of our salvation.

And Jesus promised that those who are given eternal life will never perish.

So, from the beginning of our salvation, WHEN we receive eternal life, one will never perish. That is eternal security.
Click to expand...
You always leave out where our eternal life is. It is in Christ, not apart from Him.

1 John 5:11 (ESV) 11 And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

1 John 5:12 (ESV) 12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

Do you believe you can have eternal life if your not in Christ?
 
Nathan said:
If I sell my birthright to the pleasures of this world, then it is no longer mine. It's really quite simple.
Click to expand...
Your birthright is imperishable and undefiled and unfading, reserved in heaven for you.

How would you go about 'selling' something that is in Heaven reserverd "for you"?
 
Nathan said:
How did Esau sell his before he acquired it?
Click to expand...

hello Nathan, dirtfarmer here

Esau's birthright was fleshly. The believer's birthright is Spiritual, therefore it is different from a fleshly one.

One question: Was Esau still Isaac's son by birth even though he sold his birthright?
 
Nathan said:
How did Esau sell his before he acquired it?
Click to expand...
A birthright is like a living trust in which property is transferred from one person to another but the first person retains control over it until he dies. The beneficiary of the property can sell his rights to the property. The person buying the rights would take possession of the property at the death of the original owner.
 
dirtfarmer said:
hello Nathan, dirtfarmer here

Esau's birthright was fleshly. The believer's birthright is Spiritual, therefore it is different from a fleshly one.

One question: Was Esau still Isaac's son by birth even though he sold his birthright?
Click to expand...

It was written for us to learn from and understand. Many things that are "physical" also have spiritual implications.

Esau was still his son. Are we sons of God apart from Christ?
 
dirtfarmer said:
hello Nathan, dirtfarmer here

Are you proposing that the bible lied? Genesis 26:33, " And Jacob said, Swear to me this day; and he sware unto him: and he sold his birthright unto Jacob."
Click to expand...

Are you accusing me of lying?

Did he sell it or not?

Genesis 25:34 (ESV)
Then Jacob gave Esau bread and lentil stew, and he ate and drank and rose and went his way. Thus Esau despised his birthright.

Genesis 27
34 As soon as Esau heard the words of his father, he cried out with an exceedingly great and bitter cry and said to his father, "Bless me, even me also, O my father!"
35 But he said, "Your brother came deceitfully, and he has taken away your blessing."
36 Esau said, "Is he not rightly named Jacob? For he has cheated me these two times. He took away my birthright, and behold, now he has taken away my blessing." Then he said, "Have you not reserved a blessing for me?"
 
Nathan said:
Esau was still his son. Are we sons of God apart from Christ?
Click to expand...
In Luke's genealogy of Jesus, he concludes at 3:8 with "the son of Adam, the son of God."
Since we are all sons of Adam, we are also sons of God in the flesh.
So, in that sense, we are sons of God apart from Christ.
The sense of becoming a child of God at John 1:12 gives a different meaning to the concept.
"But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:"
 
Nathan said:
It was written for us to learn from and understand. Many things that are "physical" also have spiritual implications.

Esau was still his son. Are we sons of God apart from Christ?
Click to expand...

hello Nathan, dirtfarmer here

Did not Esau also receive an inheritance?

As to accusing you of lying, when did Esau sell his birth right for a bowl of pottage?
 
Last edited:
Jim Parker said:
In Luke's genealogy of Jesus, he concludes at 3:8 with "the son of Adam, the son of God."
Since we are all sons of Adam, we are also sons of God in the flesh.
So, in that sense, we are sons of God apart from Christ.
The sense of becoming a child of God at John 1:12 gives a different meaning to the concept.
"But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:"
Click to expand...
Correct.

So, the birthright we should not despise, which guarantees us what we will receive(indicated by the 'guarantee' of our inheritance), is representative of our inheritance which comes at what point?

In other words, when do 'we' take actual possession of our what our birthright guarantees us?
 
dirtfarmer said:
hello Nathan, dirtfarmer here

Did not Esau also receive and inheritance?

As to accusing you of lying, when did Esau sell his birth right for a bowl of pottage?
Click to expand...

He did receive something.

Genesis 27
37 Isaac answered and said to Esau, "Behold, I have made him lord over you, and all his brothers I have given to him for servants, and with grain and wine I have sustained him. What then can I do for you, my son?"
38 Esau said to his father, "Have you but one blessing, my father? Bless me, even me also, O my father." And Esau lifted up his voice and wept.
39 Then Isaac his father answered and said to him: "Behold, away from the fatness of the earth shall your dwelling be, and away from the dew of heaven on high.
40 By your sword you shall live, and you shall serve your brother; but when you grow restless you shall break his yoke from your neck."

Esau sold it;

Genesis 25
29 Once when Jacob was cooking stew, Esau came in from the field, and he was exhausted.
30 And Esau said to Jacob, "Let me eat some of that red stew, for I am exhausted!" (Therefore his name was called Edom.)
31 Jacob said, "Sell me your birthright now."
32 Esau said, "I am about to die; of what use is a birthright to me?"
33 Jacob said, "Swear to me now." So he swore to him and sold his birthright to Jacob.
34 Then Jacob gave Esau bread and lentil stew, and he ate and drank and rose and went his way. Thus Esau despised his birthright.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top