Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works

[chessman]

I asked:

How would you go about 'selling' something that is in Heaven reserverd "for you"?

You didn't answer my question:

How did Esau sell his before he acquired it?

Esau didn't sell your new birthright. Yours was obtained from being caused by the Father to be "born again". He sold his, not yours. I asked about yours, not his.

1 Peter 1:3-9 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, into an inheritance imperishable and undefiled and unfading, reserved in heaven for you who are being protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time, in which you rejoice greatly, although now for a short time, if necessary, you are distressed by various trials, so that the genuineness of your faith, more valuable than gold that is passing away, but is tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ, whom, although you have not seen, you love; in whom now you believe, although you do not see him, and you rejoice greatly with joy inexpressible and full of glory, obtaining the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls.​

1. The Father caused you to be born again, not Esau. Esau was born only once (not again).
2. Your inheritance is imperishable and undefiled and unfading, reserved in heaven for you who are being protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ...
Esau's birthright was not imperisable, unfading nor protected by the power of God.
3. You rejoice greatly in your new birthright. Esau despised his.
4. Yours is more valuable than gold. Esau's was not.
5. Your birthright (reserved impressible in Heaven for you) is obtaining the salvation of your soul. Esau's obtained lentile soup and some bread.

p.s. After you answer my original question, you should actually support your claim that Esau had not acquire his birthright, Biblically. [not that his birthright was like yours]. He had acquired it:

Genesis 25:24-25 And when her days to give birth were completed, then—behold—twins were in her womb. And the first came out red, all his body was like a hairy coat, so they called his name Esau.
...
Genesis 25:32-33 And Esau said, “Look, I am going to die; now what is this birthright to me?” Then Jacob said, “Swear to me first.” And he swore to him, and sold his birthright to Jacob.
​

Strong's Concordance:
bekorah: the right of first- born
http://biblehub.com/hebrew/1062.htm

 

[WIP]

Why haven't any of these warnings said so in plain language?

Maybe they are. Sometimes we don't always see the forest for the trees. If I recall correctly, even Jesus' disciples had trouble understanding everything.

 

[Nathan]

The Bible tells us exactly what the seal is and what it is for. It is not based on being in Christ, but the very means of HOW one is in Christ.

The seal is God's mark upon those who have believed. The believer is sealed IN HIM. But don't take my word for it. This is what the Bible says about it.

Eph 1:13 - And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit

So, when a person has believed, they are included in Christ and marked in Him with the Holy Spirit.

The next verse tells us what this seal is for.
14 - who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession — to the praise of his glory.

So, the sealing with the Holy Spirit guarantees our inheritance. That is eternal security. Which is communicated by the phrase, "until the redemption of those who are God's possession".

So, the one having believed is sealed, which is a guarantee of their inheritance. Because they are God's possession.

God marks His possession with the Holy Spirit. As a deposit which guarantees their inheritance.


Yes. What verse teaches that forsaking Christ means the seal is unsealed, or that the Holy Spirit leaves the person? Such an assumption is not taught in Scripture.


No one can.

But the question that isn't being answered is where in Scripture do we read that one so sealed can be unsealed?

Why not?

A person has the seal in Christ, not out of Him. You can keep telling others that what they do gives them the seal, but I will be right here telling them that nothing you do can earn you salvation.

Galatians 5:4 (ESV)
You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.

You keep boasting of passages saying you can be "unsealed" and all it is doing is bluring the fact that only in Christ is someone sealed. If you are not in Christ, you have no seal. Show me passages that say you can earn your salvation, and keep it without being in Christ?

Galatians 2:16 (ESV)
yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

 

[Nathan]

Nathan said: ↑
We have it through faith, but we won't posses it till the day of redemption

What did Jesus mean in John 5:24 then?
"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life."

Did He really mean that, or not?

He did mean it. Because in Christ we have that life. When you believe that life can be possessed outside of Christ then it doesn't make sense.

1 John 5:11 (ESV) 11 And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

Notice the location of the life God has given us.

 

[Nathan]

I asked:

You didn't answer my question:


Esau didn't sell your new birthright. Yours was obtained from being caused by the Father to be "born again". He sold his, not yours. I asked about yours, not his.

1 Peter 1:3-9 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, into an inheritance imperishable and undefiled and unfading, reserved in heaven for you who are being protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time, in which you rejoice greatly, although now for a short time, if necessary, you are distressed by various trials, so that the genuineness of your faith, more valuable than gold that is passing away, but is tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ, whom, although you have not seen, you love; in whom now you believe, although you do not see him, and you rejoice greatly with joy inexpressible and full of glory, obtaining the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls.​

1. The Father caused you to be born again, not Esau. Esau was born only once (not again).
2. Your inheritance is imperishable and undefiled and unfading, reserved in heaven for you who are being protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ...
Esau's birthright was not imperisable, unfading nor protected by the power of God.
3. You rejoice greatly in your new birthright. Esau despised his.
4. Yours is more valuable than gold. Esau's was not.
5. Your birthright (reserved impressible in Heaven for you) is obtaining the salvation of your soul. Esau's obtained lentile soup and some bread.

p.s. After you answer my original question, you should actually support your claim that Esau had not acquire his birthright, Biblically. [not that his birthright was like yours]. He had acquired it:

Genesis 25:24-25 And when her days to give birth were completed, then—behold—twins were in her womb. And the first came out red, all his body was like a hairy coat, so they called his name Esau.
...
Genesis 25:32-33 And Esau said, “Look, I am going to die; now what is this birthright to me?” Then Jacob said, “Swear to me first.” And he swore to him, and sold his birthright to Jacob.
​

Strong's Concordance:
bekorah: the right of first- born
http://biblehub.com/hebrew/1062.htm

Esau did sell his birthright, and if you understood how he sold his, then you would understand how it is possible to sell ours.

I have not sold my birthright, but there are many who have. They do so by rejecting the value of it - considering it worthless - thinking something else has a greater value.

The birthright is not the actual possession of your inheritance - it is what gives you the 'right' to your inheritance at 'birth'.

For the one who is wondering now, you guessed it, 'faith' is our birthright.

Hebrews 10
19 Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus,
20 by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh,
21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God,
22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.
23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful.
24 And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works,
25 not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.
26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.
28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses.
29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him who said, "Vengeance is mine; I will repay." And again, "The Lord will judge his people."
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
32 But recall the former days when, after you were enlightened, you endured a hard struggle with sufferings,
33 sometimes being publicly exposed to reproach and affliction, and sometimes being partners with those so treated.
34 For you had compassion on those in prison, and you joyfully accepted the plundering of your property, since you knew that you yourselves had a better possession and an abiding one.
35 Therefore do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward.
36 For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God you may receive what is promised.

 

[gr8grace3]

Being sealed is simply a mark of authority God puts on those who are in Christ. Not based on something they did, but based on being in Christ.

If you forsake Christ, do you still have the seal? Can you have the seal outside of Christ?

I am not sure you really understand what Gods seal is. It is not a lid He puts on us. It is His Spirit.

As I follow along and try to figure out just what your message is? It seems your argument for His seal now is closer to a "lid" that a king puts on something.

Are you still saying that the seal is the Spirit Himself?

 

[chessman]

Your birthright is imperishable and undefiled and unfading, reserved in heaven for you.

How would you go about 'selling' something that is in Heaven reserverd "for you"?

They do so by rejecting the value of it - considering it worthless - thinking something else has a greater value.

So, these 'other' people think their new birthright (the one reserved in Heaven) is more perishable than gold (or even stew). Got it. I'll be careful not to be convinced by their thinking.

it is possible to sell ours.

So, you're thinking our new birthright does perish (fading away) as Esau's by considering it worthless even though it's not actually worthless or perishable (like stew)???

 

[Nathan]

As I follow along and try to figure out just what your message is? It seems your argument for His seal now is closer to a "lid" that a king puts on something.

Are you still saying that the seal is the Spirit Himself?

Is this reverse psychology? Where do you get the idea that I think it's even close to a lid?

Yes, the seal is the Spirit Himself.

Ephesians 1:13 (ESV)
In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

Ephesians 4:30 (ESV)
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

The Spirit is given to us as the guarantee that Gods promise is real and not something we made up in our mind.

Romans 8
9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.
10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.
12 So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.
13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.
15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, "Abba! Father!"
16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
17 and if children, then heirs-heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.

 

[Nathan]

So, these 'other' people think their new birthright (the one reserved in Heaven) is more perishable than gold (or even stew). Got it. I'll be careful not to be convinced by their thinking.


So, you're thinking our new birthright does perish (fading away) as Esau's by considering it worthless even though it's not actually worthless or perishable (like stew)???

The birthright is not the same as the inheritance. The birthright is what we have at birth, and then is later 'exchanged' for our inheritance.

Hebrews 10:36 (ESV)
For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God you may receive what is promised.

 

[gr8grace3]

The Spirit is given to us as the guarantee that Gods promise is real and not something we made up in our mind.

1 John 2:25~~New American Standard Bible
This is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life.

2 Cor 1:20~~New American Standard Bible
For as many as are the promises of God, in Him they are yes; therefore also through Him is our Amen to the glory of God through us.

James 1:17~~New American Standard Bible
Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow.

 

[Nathan]

1 John 2:25~~New American Standard Bible
This is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life.

2 Cor 1:20~~New American Standard Bible
For as many as are the promises of God, in Him they are yes; therefore also through Him is our Amen to the glory of God through us.

James 1:17~~New American Standard Bible
Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow.

Amen!

1 John 5
10 Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son.
11 And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

2 Corinthians 1
21 And it is God who establishes us with you in Christ, and has anointed us,
22 and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

James 1
18 Of his own will he brought us forth by the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
19 Know this, my beloved brothers: let every person be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger;
20 for the anger of man does not produce the righteousness of God.
21 Therefore put away all filthiness and rampant wickedness and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls.
22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.
23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks intently at his natural face in a mirror.
24 For he looks at himself and goes away and at once forgets what he was like.
25 But the one who looks into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and perseveres, being no hearer who forgets but a doer who acts, he will be blessed in his doing.

 

[dirtfarmer]

dirtfarmer here

It seems to me as I there is a mixture of law and grace being espoused by some: "Endurance until the end and then you will receive salvation." What are we to endure? A belief that Jesus died for us?

If I understand scripture under grace there is no "endurance unto the end" , but a "now we are fellow-heirs and of the household of God". Enduring until the end is law and works based salvation, but "now we are fellow-heirs" is grace through faith" based salvation.

What is it that God requires for salvation: John 6:29, " Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."

 

[Nathan]

dirtfarmer here

It seems to me as I there is a mixture of law and grace being espoused by some: "Endurance until the end and then you will receive salvation." What are we to endure? A belief that Jesus died for us?

If I understand scripture under grace there is no "endurance unto the end" , but a "now we are fellow-heirs and of the household of God". Enduring until the end is law and works based salvation, but "now we are fellow-heirs" is grace through faith" based salvation.

What is it that God requires for salvation: John 6:29, " Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."

Sometimes endurance can be misunderstood. Endurance is needed for discipline. So that in discipline we will not turn away from Christ, but understand it's for our benifit we are being disciplined.

Endurance is a true doctrine that should be understood.

Hebrews 10
32 But recall the former days when, after you were enlightened, you endured a hard struggle with sufferings,
33 sometimes being publicly exposed to reproach and affliction, and sometimes being partners with those so treated.
34 For you had compassion on those in prison, and you joyfully accepted the plundering of your property, since you knew that you yourselves had a better possession and an abiding one.
35 Therefore do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward.
36 For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God you may receive what is promised.
37 For, "Yet a little while, and the coming one will come and will not delay;
38 but my righteous one shall live by faith, and if he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him."
39 But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and preserve their souls.

 

[MarkT]

No, I've never left that out. When I cite Rom 6:23, the entire verse is available for anyone to read. Why would I be trying to hide anything in the verse? That doesn't make sense.

The issue is for your side to prove from Scripture that those "having believed" and sealed IN HIM with the Holy Spirit can be unsealed. I'm still waiting for any evidence from Scripture.


Amen.


Amen.


I believe that one who never believed in Christ can be in Christ. They have to believe in order to be sealed in Him.

And, from Eph 1:13,14, once sealed, always sealed.

No one has proven otherwise.

Those who are born of the Spirit of God are marked by the indwelling of the same Spirit. I think you're assuming that everyone who believes is born again. But we know there are false teachers and false prophets, and many will fall away from the doctrine of Christ, thinking they know him, but he never knew them.

 

[FreeGrace]

Maybe they are. Sometimes we don't always see the forest for the trees. If I recall correctly, even Jesus' disciples had trouble understanding everything.

They mostly had trouble understanding His parables and figures of speech. When He spoke in plainly, they were relieved.
John 16:25-30
25 "Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father. 26 In that day you will ask in my name. I am not saying that I will ask the Father on your behalf. 27 No, the Father himself loves you because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God. 28 I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father." 29 Then Jesus' disciples said, "Now you are speaking clearly and without figures of speech. 30 Now we can see that you know all things and that you do not even need to have anyone ask you questions. This makes us believe that you came from God."

We typically don't see the forest for the trees when one speaks in parables or uses figures of speech. When one speaks plainly, the whole forest becomes clear.

 

[FreeGrace]

A person has the seal in Christ, not out of Him.

I agree wholeheartedly!!

You can keep telling others that what they do gives them the seal, but I will be right here telling them that nothing you do can earn you salvation.

I again agree wholeheartedly!! It's not "what they do" in general that results in being sealed. It's what they do specifically; which is to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Galatians 5:4 (ESV)
You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.

If this verse means loss of salvation, then the Bible is contradicted and flawed, because Jesus promised that those He gives eternal life will never perish in John 10:28. This fact is either believed or rejected. But it is a promise from Jesus.

iow, on the basis of receiving eternal life, one will never perish. That is exactly what Jesus said. In plain language. No parables, no figures of speech.

You keep boasting of passages saying you can be "unsealed" and all it is doing is bluring the fact that only in Christ is someone sealed.

"Boasting"?? What in the world?? I've CHALLENGED anyone to show any verses about anyone being unsealed, and no one has shown any. That's no boast. It's a direct challenge. And Gal 5:4 isn't about the sealing with the Holy Spirit. It's about falling away from the faith, not from salvation.

There are no verses that speak of falling away from salvation. That has to be assumed because the Bible never says that.

If you are not in Christ, you have no seal.

Correct. If one has never believed in Christ, they have never been sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit. It appears we are in agreement on this.

Show me passages that say you can earn your salvation, and keep it without being in Christ?

No one can earn salvation. No one. And those who have been placed in Him are already saved. So your question is meaningless.

Galatians 2:16 (ESV)
yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

Amen!!

 

[WIP]

They mostly had trouble understanding His parables and figures of speech. When He spoke in plainly, they were relieved.
John 16:25-30
25 "Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father. 26 In that day you will ask in my name. I am not saying that I will ask the Father on your behalf. 27 No, the Father himself loves you because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God. 28 I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father." 29 Then Jesus' disciples said, "Now you are speaking clearly and without figures of speech. 30 Now we can see that you know all things and that you do not even need to have anyone ask you questions. This makes us believe that you came from God."

We typically don't see the forest for the trees when one speaks in parables or uses figures of speech. When one speaks plainly, the whole forest becomes clear.

True, but are all of Scripture written plainly so all can understand?

 

[FreeGrace]

He did mean it. Because in Christ we have that life. When you believe that life can be possessed outside of Christ then it doesn't make sense.

It's worse than not making sense. It's unbiblical and false. But why make that point with me, since I've never suggested such a notion?

1 John 5:11 (ESV) 11 And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

Notice the location of the life God has given us.

I already have. It seems you're totally unfamiliar with what I believe.

Are you not following my posts, or just making incorrect conclusions based on lack of knowledge of what I've posted?

 

[FreeGrace]

Is this reverse psychology? Where do you get the idea that I think it's even close to a lid?

Yes, the seal is the Spirit Himself.

Ephesians 1:13 (ESV)
In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

Just curious. Have you accepted v.14 as well?

Ephesians 4:30 (ESV)
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

The Spirit is given to us as the guarantee that Gods promise is real and not something we made up in our mind.

No. It's not God's promise that is "real", but our inheritance in heaven that's real. I suggest you're misreading Scripture.
v.14 - who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

The believer's inheritance isn't some promise. It's an actual inheritance, not just a promise of some kind of inheritance.

Esp NOT an inheritance that is not guaranteed.

I hope everyone reading this understands what a guarantee is.

 

[FreeGrace]

Those who are born of the Spirit of God are marked by the indwelling of the same Spirit.

Correct.

I think you're assuming that everyone who believes is born again.

What's to assume. Everyone who DOES believe IS born again.
1 John 5:1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well.

So we see that the Bible says so.

But we know there are false teachers and false prophets

Again, let's see what the Bible says about such people:
"But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves." 2 Pet 2:1

I understand these people as having never believed in the Messiah.

and many will fall away from the doctrine of Christ, thinking they know him, but he never knew them.

If they ever believed, they are STILL SEALED IN HIM with the Holy Spirit. Eph 1:13

If this specific seal could be unsealed, the Bible would have said so plainly. And not in diffrerent contexts. Paul would have said so in Eph 1, to be clear.

Yet, what did he write about this sealing?
"And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption." Eph 4:30

iow, in spite of grieving the Holy Spirit, one is STILL sealed, and it's FOR THE DAY OF REDEMPTION.

How is that NOT eternal security? Please advise.

If this sealing could be unsealed, 4:30 would have been the perfect place to say so, yet Paul emphasizes eternal security even in the face of grieving the Spirit.