Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works

[FreeGrace]

True, but are all of Scripture written plainly so all can understand?

No, clearly not. But doctrine is understood from what has been plainly stated.

I believe one is on dangerous grounds doctrinally when they base doctrines without plainly stated verses.

As I just pointed out in another post, if the sealing in Him with the Holy Spirit could be unsealed, Eph 4:30 would have been the perfect place to make that point, where he mentions grieving the Holy Spirit. Yet, instead of that, Paul emphasizes eternal security by saying we were sealed for the day of redemption.

Grieving the Holy Spirit sure sounds grievous to me. So if salvation could be lost, or the seal unsealed, it would seem that grieving the Spirit would result in that. But Paul never even hints at that. In fact, he "seals" the deal in 4:30 by referencing our sealing with eternal security, which is the same point he makes in Eph 1:14.

If Eph 1:14 and 4:30 do not teach eternal security, I cannot imagine what they are teaching. And no one has offered any idea of what they are teaching, if other than eternal security.

 

[GodsGrace]

yep.


Please review Jn 10:28. Jesus didn't say that. He said those He gives eternal life will never perish. Nothing about "as long as...". That is only an added opinion, and one without any Scriptural support.

Jesus was clear: those He gives eternal life will never perish. That's EXACTLY what He promised.

That is a promise to either believe, or to reject.


That isn't my argument at all. Of course some will not continue to believe. Jesus made that clear in Luke 8:13.

But, He promised that those He gives eternal life will never perish.

Now, just one question. To whom does He give eternal life, and WHEN does He give it? Please answer.

John 10:28
Jesus says HIS SHEEP hear His voice.
Has someone who has gone back into the world hear His voice?

Jesus says HIS SHEEP will follow Him.
Does someone who goes back into the world follow Him?

He DOES give eternal life to those who are IN CHRIST.
Christ is the giver of life. Life is IN HIM.

So, if you leave Him and go back into the world, you NO LONGER HAVE CHRIST OR THE LIFE.

Jesus said no one shall snatch them out of His hand.
Does Jesus ever lie? NO! NO ONE can snatch a believer out of His hand. Not even satan can if we keep our eyes on the Lord.
But I can certainly WALK OUT. Or, do I lose my free will once saved?

When does someone have eternal life?
As a certainty, as the end of our life when we receive our glorified body.

Eternal life can begin now, as a promise if we remain in Christ.
As a down-payment. Eternal life is in us if we remain IN Christ.

However, I believe in loss of salvation, so I'll have to say that we do not receive the promise till the end.

The promise made to us is dependent on our continuing to believe for our salvation.

 

[FreeGrace]

John 10:28
Jesus says HIS SHEEP hear His voice.

No, v.27 says that.

Has someone who has gone back into the world hear His voice?

Not then.

Jesus says HIS SHEEP will follow Him.
Does someone who goes back into the world follow Him?

Not then.

He DOES give eternal life to those who are IN CHRIST.
Christ is the giver of life. Life is IN HIM.

Yes.

So, if you leave Him and go back into the world, you NO LONGER HAVE CHRIST OR THE LIFE.

Please provide any clear verse that says that one who has believed and is sealed can be unsealed. If not, your assumptions are only that.

Also, consider these 2 verses:
Eph 1:14 - who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Eph 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Now, both verses speak of redemption. 1:14 speaks of guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption, and 4:30 speaks of being sealed for the day of redemption, in spite of grieving the Holy Spirit.

Please kindly explain how these 2 verses do not speak of eternal security, because I cannot imagine how they would be speaking of anything else. Thank you.

Jesus said no one shall snatch them out of His hand.

He did, indeed.

He also said in that very verse (John 10:28) that those He gives eternal life will never perish. Back in 5:24 He said that those who believe HAVE eternal life.

If there is any condition other than simply receiving the gift of eternal life for never perishing, why wouldn't Jesus have made that very clear in 10:28? As it stands, He was clear about never perishing on the basis of receiving eternal life.

So, please kindly explain how 10:28 does not speak of eternal security, because I cannot imagine how Jesus could be speaking of anything else. Thank you.

Does Jesus ever lie? NO!

Of course not. And that's exactly my point.

NO ONE can snatch a believer out of His hand.

And just as much, one who has received the gift of eternal life will never perish, because Jesus never lies!!

Not even satan can if we keep our eyes on the Lord.

Why include the "if" clause? Where does the Bible say that satan can snatch us out of His hand?

But I can certainly WALK OUT. Or, do I lose my free will once saved?

No one "walks out of" Jesus' hand. But nice try with the clever word play. Walking away from the Lord is parallel to the prodigal walking away from his father. And guess what! He was STILL the son, and the father was STILL the father.

Even when the son returned to the father in confession and repentance, and was willing to be demoted to servant, the father interrupted the son before he could get that nonsense out.

Father-child relationships are permanent.

When does someone have eternal life?

Jesus told us, in John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

So, it's WHEN one believes. That's WHEN they receive eternal life.

As a certainty, as the end of our life when we receive our glorified body.

This is different than receiving eternal life. Or was Jesus misguided in what He said in John 5:24??

Eternal life can begin now, as a promise if we remain in Christ.

Where is this so-called promise about "if we....do anything"?

As a down-payment. Eternal life is in us if we remain IN Christ.

Please provide any verse that says this plainly.

However, I believe in loss of salvation, so I'll have to say that we do not receive the promise till the end.

I know. In spite of clear verses about eternal security.

The promise made to us is dependent on our continuing to believe for our salvation.

If that were true, then Jesus couldn't be right about what He said in John 5:24 and 10:28.
Nor what Paul wrote in Eph 1:13-14 and 4:30.

 

[dirtfarmer]

John 10:28
Jesus says HIS SHEEP hear His voice.
Has someone who has gone back into the world hear His voice?

Jesus says HIS SHEEP will follow Him.
Does someone who goes back into the world follow Him?

He DOES give eternal life to those who are IN CHRIST.
Christ is the giver of life. Life is IN HIM.

So, if you leave Him and go back into the world, you NO LONGER HAVE CHRIST OR THE LIFE.

Jesus said no one shall snatch them out of His hand.
Does Jesus ever lie? NO! NO ONE can snatch a believer out of His hand. Not even satan can if we keep our eyes on the Lord.
But I can certainly WALK OUT. Or, do I lose my free will once saved?

When does someone have eternal life?
As a certainty, as the end of our life when we receive our glorified body.

Eternal life can begin now, as a promise if we remain in Christ.
As a down-payment. Eternal life is in us if we remain IN Christ.

However, I believe in loss of salvation, so I'll have to say that we do not receive the promise till the end.

The promise made to us is dependent on our continuing to believe for our salvation.

hello wondering, dirtfarmer here

What does John 10:29 mean, " My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my father's hand." Am I greater than God? How about you, are you greater than God? Where it is stated, " God is greater than all", does that include me or you? If it does, then are we greater than God so that I can pluck myself from his hand, or that you are greater than God so that you can pluck yourself from his hand? I ask this in all sincerity, are we greater than God when it comes to ourselves? Am I, individually, greater than God when it involves me? not any one else. I understand that I can't "pluck you, nor can you pluck me" out of God's hand because I am not powerful enough, nor are you powerful enough.

While we were sinners, did we really have free will? Were we not subject to Satan and under his control and not pleasing to God? It is only after we are in Christ that we have the ability to be pleasing to God, because of Christ not because of ourselves. Christ is the only person that God has made the statement: "In whom I am well pleased".

The promises of God to us are not dependent on our faithfulness, but on God's faithfulness.
1 Thessalonians 5:24, " Faithful is he that calleth you, who will also do it." Where is it stated that the one called has to be faithful unto the end
Philippians 1:6, " Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ." Where is " we have to perform it until the end"?

It is sin, the nature that we were all born with, that keeps God from a relationship with man. For God to look upon that nature without having first judged it before the foundation of the world, would mean that God with his holiness would have to judge every man at his birth without being longsuffering and having mercy.

 

[Nathan]

FreeGrace

I actually have been following you logic in your posts. So it's not that it goes unnoticed or understood, but that it is rather choppy and not complete in order to be understood as such. There are three things that I have noticed, which I believe contributes to this misunderstanding that you may think some have of you.

1. You quite often use single statements made in passages. Very rarely do I ever see you post more than one verse from a passage. The issue with this, is that many - if not all - false doctrine came/comes when someone pulls a statement from the Bible without understanding the complete thought that surrounds it.

Case in point, you often say that if a particular verse "means" something, then it contradicts the rest of the passages you hold too. You made that comment specifically about Galatians 5:4. It seems you don't want it to mean what it does, because it does not fit what you believe about other singular passages.

2. Is much like the first point, except you take what other people are posting and chop it up into singular sentences/comments, and then base your replies on those comments individually instead of leaving them as a whole.

Your free to do this, but if your serious about wanting to discuss these topics, then you should let people's comments(and Biblical passages) alone, in the whole context they are written. Sure, some statements are made by themselves, and it makes sense to address them individually. But you do this to the extreme.

3. You really seem to want to be serious about wanting to know others opinions, yet you shoot them down with the same - out of context - one line passages. Example, you want to know how someone can be "unsealed", yet when I tell you there is no such thing because it would mean "sealed" is like putting a lid on a jar, you disregard it.

I don't feel like these conversations are a waste of time at all. I think we all can learn from them if we approach them with the desire for the truth - not a specific agenda to push.

It does seem you have a concern about our being sealed by God. So, God puts this 'seal' on us by giving us His Spirit.

Ephesians 1
11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,
12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory.
13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

As we see, it is in Christ we have the seal, and this seal is the same seal Christ had. It is the Spirit of God. God only has one seal.

John 6
27 Do not labor for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal."
28 Then they said to him, "What must we do, to be doing the works of God?"
29 Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent."

So the seal of God is the Spirit of God, and this seal can only be had in Christ. Therefore, the question is; can a person have this seal if he is not in Christ?

 

[Jim Parker]

Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Nathan said: ↑
We have it through faith, but we won't posses it till the day of redemption
What did Jesus mean in John 5:24 then?
"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life."
Did He really mean that, or not?

Of course he meant that.
But He did not say ETERNALLY HAS eternal life.

For example;
Luk 8:13 “But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away."
They heard His word and fell away. Obviously they did not have eternal life any more.

And in His holy, inspired, infallible, word He has spoken to us saying:
Heb 3:5-6 And Moses indeed was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which would be spoken afterward, but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are IF we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end

And He also spoke to us in His holy, inspired, infallible, word saying:
Heb 3:14 For we have become partakers of Christ IF we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end

Heb 4:11 Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience.
(The writer of Hebrews here refers to the same disobedience as those Israelites who died in the desert and did not enter into His rest in the promised land.)

It seems to me, and I could be wrong, that you have a habit of overlooking or dismissing Gods word whenever He says anything like that. Am I wrong? I don't think so but, I could be.


iakov the fool
(beaucoup dien cai dau)




DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. No sniveling! Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.

 

[Nathan]

John 10:28
Jesus says HIS SHEEP hear His voice.
Has someone who has gone back into the world hear His voice?

Jesus says HIS SHEEP will follow Him.
Does someone who goes back into the world follow Him?

He DOES give eternal life to those who are IN CHRIST.
Christ is the giver of life. Life is IN HIM.

So, if you leave Him and go back into the world, you NO LONGER HAVE CHRIST OR THE LIFE.

Jesus said no one shall snatch them out of His hand.
Does Jesus ever lie? NO! NO ONE can snatch a believer out of His hand. Not even satan can if we keep our eyes on the Lord.
But I can certainly WALK OUT. Or, do I lose my free will once saved?

When does someone have eternal life?
As a certainty, as the end of our life when we receive our glorified body.

Eternal life can begin now, as a promise if we remain in Christ.
As a down-payment. Eternal life is in us if we remain IN Christ.

However, I believe in loss of salvation, so I'll have to say that we do not receive the promise till the end.

The promise made to us is dependent on our continuing to believe for our salvation.

I agree with you personally, but I think we have come to a point where semantics are going to be key for understanding the whole thing.

In other words, a person does not lose salvation - they forssake it.

Also, salvation is not dependent on our continuing to believe - it's based on our continuance in Christ.

You and I both know(I think?) that these things seem like your saying the same thing, but in reality there are differences that need to be pointed out.

For example; there are times when a believer will 'doubt' their salvation. John was really good about encouraging believers who doubted. Of course, back then, they were going through very hard times and all they had to look forward to was their eternal life in God.

However, just because a believer 'doubts' for a time, does not mean they leave Christ. So this is the case in where it would not be a correct statement to say our salvation is based on our continuance to believe.

It's only when that doubt continues, and turns into a desire to choose another means of salvation, that a person 'forsakes' Christ. That is what we should all aim to help others avoid. This is best done with encouraging others in Christ - not in something they did.

I'm sure you know this, but Johns encouragement of believers was always in Christ - them in Him - never them in something they did.

1 John 1
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we looked upon and have touched with our hands, concerning the word of life-
2 the life was made manifest, and we have seen it, and testify to it and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was made manifest to us-
3 that which we have seen and heard we proclaim also to you, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ.
4 And we are writing these things so that our joy may be complete.
5 This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
6 If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.
8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

 

[Jim Parker]

His challenge is to prove from Scripture that God's seal (the indwelling Holy Spirit) on His own possession can be broken, for any reason. That's a fair challenge. And an impossible one to prove, since the Bible does not teach that the Holy Spirit can be removed from any person so sealed.

Really?
Heb 6:4-6 (again!!)
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

Are they still sealed after they fall away?

Or are they like those described at Luke 8:13 who "when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away."?

iakov the fool

 

[FreeGrace]

FreeGrace

I actually have been following you logic in your posts. So it's not that it goes unnoticed or understood, but that it is rather choppy and not complete in order to be understood as such. There are three things that I have noticed, which I believe contributes to this misunderstanding that you may think some have of you.

Thanks for the feedback. We all need it.

1. You quite often use single statements made in passages. Very rarely do I ever see you post more than one verse from a passage. The issue with this, is that many - if not all - false doctrine came/comes when someone pulls a statement from the Bible without understanding the complete thought that surrounds it.

I generally quote or at least cite 3 or more verses in my posts. Rom 6:23 goes with Rom 11:29, and Eph 1:13-14 goes with Eph 4:30 and 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5. So I disagree with your assessment.

Case in point, you often say that if a particular verse "means" something, then it contradicts the rest of the passages you hold too. You made that comment specifically about Galatians 5:4. It seems you don't want it to mean what it does, because it does not fit what you believe about other singular passages.

Case in point, every verse means something. Or those verses are worthless, if they don't mean something. So your comment is strange.

If there is any verse that seems that I "don't it to mean what it does", then just point it out. But what I think you really meant to say is that there are verses where I disagree with how others think it means. And I hope you've noticed that I have explained WHY or HOW it cannot mean what another poster claims it means. I only wish I'd get the same treatment from others, by explaining to me WHY and/or HOW the verses I quote can't mean what I believe they mean.

2. Is much like the first point, except you take what other people are posting and chop it up into singular sentences/comments, and then base your replies on those comments individually instead of leaving them as a whole.

Does the meaning of any statement change based on individual phrases within that statement? No, they don't, so I believe your assessment here is baseless.

Your free to do this, but if your serious about wanting to discuss these topics, then you should let people's comments(and Biblical passages) alone, in the whole context they are written. Sure, some statements are made by themselves, and it makes sense to address them individually. But you do this to the extreme.

Some paragraphs are so full of what I believe to be error I need to address each individual error by itself.

3. You really seem to want to be serious about wanting to know others opinions, yet you shoot them down with the same - out of context - one line passages.

No one has shown how any context contradicts my "one-line passages". Some have tried, but they showed nothing of the sort.

Case in point: one poster loves to claim that I ignore many words in verses, as if that somehow changes the meaning. For example, Rom 6:23 describes eternal life as a gift of God by the phrase "the gift of God is eternal life". I quote that a lot to show that eternal life is a gift of God. This other poster then claims that I've "left out" the next phrase, which is "in Christ Jesus our Lord".

Does it really make any sense to claim or insinuate that adding that phrase makes eternal life something other than a gift of God? Of course not. That is absurd.

Example, you want to know how someone can be "unsealed", yet when I tell you there is no such thing because it would mean "sealed" is like putting a lid on a jar, you disregard it.

I said that because your analysis is simply wrong. It isn't like a jar or lid at all. My question has to do with what Scripture SAYS about anyone who has been sealed being unsealed. That's not hard to understand.

The Bible SAYS those having believed ARE SEALED in Him with the Holy Spirit. I believe this describes the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Now, does the Bible SAY that any believer can lose the Holy Spirit? (that would be an example of being "unsealed", so there is NOTHING at all trying to compare the sealing with the Holy Spirit with lids and jars.

All I'm asking for is Scripture that speaks of the Holy Spirit being taken out or removed from one having believed. That's the ONLY way to demonstrate the possibility of losing one's salvation. The "seal" is broken, so to speak.

So let's ignore lids and jars and deal with what the Bible says. Or doesn't say.

I don't feel like these conversations are a waste of time at all. I think we all can learn from them if we approach them with the desire for the truth - not a specific agenda to push.

My desire for the truth leads me to ask about verses that directly and plainly say that a sealed believer can be unsealed (Holy Spirit removed) or that the gift of eternal life is not irrevocable. I've seen no such verses.

It does seem you have a concern about our being sealed by God. So, God puts this 'seal' on us by giving us His Spirit.

I believe every believer should be concerned about this sealing. It's God's guarantee of eternal security. You know, for the day of redemption. As God's own possession.

So, if Eph 1:13-14 doesn't teach eternal security, what does it teach?

Ephesians 1
11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,
12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory.
13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

As we see, it is in Christ we have the seal, and this seal is the same seal Christ had. It is the Spirit of God. God only has one seal.

OK, so what do v.13 and 14 teach, if not eternal security? No one has explained that to me.

John 6
27 Do not labor for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal."
28 Then they said to him, "What must we do, to be doing the works of God?"
29 Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent."

Not sure how this relates to the notion of loss of salvation.

So the seal of God is the Spirit of God, and this seal can only be had in Christ. Therefore, the question is; can a person have this seal if he is not in Christ?

That isn't the issue at all, and I'm really surprised that this question keeps coming up.

Regarding unbelievers (those who never believed), they are neither IN Christ, nor do they have the Holy Spirit in them.

Regarding those having believed (aorist tense), they are IN CHRIST, and the Holy Spirit is IN them.

Those who think salvation can be lost must be able to show that the Holy Spirit can be removed from any who has believed.

That's your assignment. I look forward to your response.

 

[Jim Parker]

Those who think salvation can be lost must be able to show that the Holy Spirit can be removed from any who has believed.

This is a Straw Man argument.
No one is saying that the Holy Spirit can be removed.
But the Holy Spirit can and will depart from a vessel that becomes defiled.

The scriptures repeatedly warn believers that they must stay faithful until then end. If there were no peril, there would be no need for a warning.

The scriptures repeatedly state that having eternal life is conditional based on the believer remaining faithful.

I have posted the relevant scriptures repeatedly.
(Apparently they are not in the OSAS Bible.)

(1) JN 15:1 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit,

15:5 "I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 IF ANYONE DOES NOT REMAIN IN ME, HE IS LIKE A BRANCH THAT IS THROWN AWAY AND WITHERS; SUCH BRANCHES ARE PICKED UP, THROWN INTO THE FIRE AND BURNED.

(2) RO 11:17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21 For IF GOD DID NOT SPARE THE NATURAL BRANCHES, HE WILL NOT SPARE YOU EITHER.

22 CONSIDER THEREFORE THE KINDNESS AND STERNNESS OF GOD: STERNNESS TO THOSE WHO FELL, BUT KINDNESS TO YOU, PROVIDED THAT YOU CONTINUE IN HIS KINDNESS. OTHERWISE, YOU ALSO WILL BE CUT OFF.

(3) 1CO 9:27 No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

(4) 1CO 10:12 So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall!

(5) COL 1:21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. 22 But now HE HAS RECONCILED YOU BY CHRIST'S PHYSICAL BODY THROUGH DEATH TO PRESENT YOU HOLY IN HIS SIGHT, WITHOUT BLEMISH AND FREE FROM ACCUSATION-- 23 IF YOU CONTINUE IN YOUR FAITH, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.

(6) HEB 3:12 See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. 14 WE HAVE COME TO SHARE IN CHRIST IF WE HOLD FIRMLY TILL THE END THE CONFIDENCE WE HAD AT FIRST.

(7) HEB 6:4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6 IF THEY FALL AWAY, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

(8) PHP 3:7 But whatever was to my profit I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. 8 What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ--the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith. 10 I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead.

PHP 3:12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13 Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

(9) 2PE 1:5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. 10 Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For IF YOU DO THESE THINGS, YOU WILL NEVER FALL,

(10) 2PE 2: 20 IF THEY HAVE ESCAPED THE CORRUPTION OF THE WORLD BY KNOWING OUR LORD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST AND ARE AGAIN ENTANGLED IN IT AND OVERCOME, THEY ARE WORSE OFF AT THE END THAN THEY WERE AT THE BEGINNING. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.

(11) EZE 18:24 "But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.”

 

[FreeGrace]

Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Of course he meant that.
But He did not say ETERNALLY HAS eternal life.

I just checked all my posts, and I never said "etrenally has eternal life". I have no idea what that even means. Which is why I'd never say such a thing.

For example;
Luk 8:13 “But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away."
They heard His word and fell away. Obviously they did not have eternal life any more.

Why is it obvious?

What is obvious to me is that "the gift of God is eternal life" from Rom 6:23 and that "the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable" from Rom 11:29.

So, it is obvious that eternal life is irrevocable. But there are some who resist that very strongly, for reasons that totally escape me.

And in His holy, inspired, infallible, word He has spoken to us saying:
Heb 3:5-6 And Moses indeed was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which would be spoken afterward, but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are IF we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end

I hope you're not thinking this means to "keep a grip" on something. It doesn't. The single Greek word means "to possess".

So, we ARE God's "house" if we possess the confidence and rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.

However, how can these verses speak of the possibility of loss of salvation when Paul was clear about God's gifts, including the gift of eternal life, are irrevocable?

And He also spoke to us in His holy, inspired, infallible, word saying:
Heb 3:14 For we have become partakers of Christ IF we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end

The word "partaker" isn't about getting saved. It's about a partnership with Christ through fellowship, a word that seems to have no place, or not much of one, in circles that promote loss of salvation theology.

Heb 4:11 Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience.
(The writer of Hebrews here refers to the same disobedience as those Israelites who died in the desert and did not enter into His rest in the promised land.)

The "rest" mentioned here in Hebrews refers to entering the promised land. And they had to work for it. So entering the rest cannot be about salvation, or salvation is by works, which is refuted by Paul in Rom 4:4,5 and Eph 2:8,9.

It seems to me, and I could be wrong, that you have a habit of overlooking or dismissing Gods word whenever He says anything like that.

Am I wrong? I don't think so but, I could be.

Yes, I believe you're wrong. I have just explained the verses quoted to show what they are about, which is not what you thought they were about.

 

[Jim Parker]

So, we ARE God's "house" if we possess the confidence and rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.

ANd if you do NOT possess until the end then you cease to be God's house.

However, how can these verses speak of the possibility of loss of salvation when Paul was clear about God's gifts, including the gift of eternal life, are irrevocable?

That is a totally false meaning applied to Paul's statement about Israel and Israel ONLY.
It is fake proof.

The word "partaker" isn't about getting saved. It's about a partnership with Christ through fellowship, a word that seems to have no place, or not much of one, in circles that promote loss of salvation theology.

That is mindless double talk.

The "rest" mentioned here in Hebrews refers to entering the promised land. And they had to work for it. So entering the rest cannot be about salvation,

The context of that entire passage is about salvation.
You are perverting the message of that passage of scripture in order to support the OSAS nonsense.
But, that is what is necessary to support OSAS: you must try to ignore scriptures that refute it and mangle those that you are unable to ignore.

Your "exegesis" does grotesque violence to the scripture.

 

[FreeGrace]

I agree with you personally, but I think we have come to a point where semantics are going to be key for understanding the whole thing.

In other words, a person does not lose salvation - they forssake it.

If that is true, where does the Bible say so in plain words? I see a lot of assuming about verses, but nothing plain about this.

Also, salvation is not dependent on our continuing to believe - it's based on our continuance in Christ.

This seems like a word game. However, if our salvation is based on our continuance in Christ, then all the promises about "never perishing" would be false and not true. Like John 3:16 and 10:28.

Also, Eph 1:13-14 tells us that having believed, one is sealed IN HIM with the Spirit. So our "continuance in Christ", from a biblical standpoint, is maintained by our being sealed in Him.

So, if salvation can be forsaken, there needs to be a verse that plainly says so and shows how one can forsake their salvation and indwelling Spirit.

For example; there are times when a believer will 'doubt' their salvation. John was really good about encouraging believers who doubted. Of course, back then, they were going through very hard times and all they had to look forward to was their eternal life in God.

Doubting one's salvation is simply, at that point, NOT believing the promise that Jesus Christ made about those who believe. That they will never perish.

However, just because a believer 'doubts' for a time, does not mean they leave Christ. So this is the case in where it would not be a correct statement to say our salvation is based on our continuance to believe.

I do not believe anyone can "leave Christ". They can turn their back on Him by losing faith, but I find no Scripture that says that doing so results in loss of salvation or eternal life. It's just an assumption that some make, but without any support from Scripture.

It's only when that doubt continues, and turns into a desire to choose another means of salvation, that a person 'forsakes' Christ. That is what we should all aim to help others avoid. This is best done with encouraging others in Christ - not in something they did.

Where does the Bible say that salvation can be forsaken?

I'm sure you know this, but Johns encouragement of believers was always in Christ - them in Him - never them in something they did.

Of course.

1 John 1
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we looked upon and have touched with our hands, concerning the word of life-
2 the life was made manifest, and we have seen it, and testify to it and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was made manifest to us-
3 that which we have seen and heard we proclaim also to you, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ.
4 And we are writing these things so that our joy may be complete.
5 This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
6 If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.
8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

How many times did John mention "fellowship"? 4x

It is my impression that those who believe that salvation can be lost/forsaken/given up or away/etc seem to have no understanding of what John means by "fellowship" at all.

Can you explain what he was talking about?

 

[Nathan]

Thanks for the feedback. We all need it.


I generally quote or at least cite 3 or more verses in my posts. Rom 6:23 goes with Rom 11:29, and Eph 1:13-14 goes with Eph 4:30 and 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5. So I disagree with your assessment.


Case in point, every verse means something. Or those verses are worthless, if they don't mean something. So your comment is strange.

If there is any verse that seems that I "don't it to mean what it does", then just point it out. But what I think you really meant to say is that there are verses where I disagree with how others think it means. And I hope you've noticed that I have explained WHY or HOW it cannot mean what another poster claims it means. I only wish I'd get the same treatment from others, by explaining to me WHY and/or HOW the verses I quote can't mean what I believe they mean.


Does the meaning of any statement change based on individual phrases within that statement? No, they don't, so I believe your assessment here is baseless.


Some paragraphs are so full of what I believe to be error I need to address each individual error by itself.


No one has shown how any context contradicts my "one-line passages". Some have tried, but they showed nothing of the sort.

Case in point: one poster loves to claim that I ignore many words in verses, as if that somehow changes the meaning. For example, Rom 6:23 describes eternal life as a gift of God by the phrase "the gift of God is eternal life". I quote that a lot to show that eternal life is a gift of God. This other poster then claims that I've "left out" the next phrase, which is "in Christ Jesus our Lord".

Does it really make any sense to claim or insinuate that adding that phrase makes eternal life something other than a gift of God? Of course not. That is absurd.


I said that because your analysis is simply wrong. It isn't like a jar or lid at all. My question has to do with what Scripture SAYS about anyone who has been sealed being unsealed. That's not hard to understand.

The Bible SAYS those having believed ARE SEALED in Him with the Holy Spirit. I believe this describes the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Now, does the Bible SAY that any believer can lose the Holy Spirit? (that would be an example of being "unsealed", so there is NOTHING at all trying to compare the sealing with the Holy Spirit with lids and jars.

All I'm asking for is Scripture that speaks of the Holy Spirit being taken out or removed from one having believed. That's the ONLY way to demonstrate the possibility of losing one's salvation. The "seal" is broken, so to speak.

So let's ignore lids and jars and deal with what the Bible says. Or doesn't say.


My desire for the truth leads me to ask about verses that directly and plainly say that a sealed believer can be unsealed (Holy Spirit removed) or that the gift of eternal life is not irrevocable. I've seen no such verses.


I believe every believer should be concerned about this sealing. It's God's guarantee of eternal security. You know, for the day of redemption. As God's own possession.

So, if Eph 1:13-14 doesn't teach eternal security, what does it teach?


OK, so what do v.13 and 14 teach, if not eternal security? No one has explained that to me.


Not sure how this relates to the notion of loss of salvation.


That isn't the issue at all, and I'm really surprised that this question keeps coming up.

Regarding unbelievers (those who never believed), they are neither IN Christ, nor do they have the Holy Spirit in them.

Regarding those having believed (aorist tense), they are IN CHRIST, and the Holy Spirit is IN them.

Those who think salvation can be lost must be able to show that the Holy Spirit can be removed from any who has believed.

That's your assignment. I look forward to your response.

I hope that what you say about feedback is sincere - seems to be lost in your reply though.

Quoting three different passages is not taking what is said into context. There are many false religions that take way more than 3 passages, and make false doctrines on them that lead people astray.

Quoting the complete thought, as it was written, inside a single book/letter, is where you will not stray from the truth. Sometimes, in rare instances, a complete though will be said in a single sentence/passage. But the ones you post are not, they have other verses that surround them, which gives context to what was meant.

Kind of like you breaking my post up into sections. I wrote it in complete thoughts, that were separated into paragraphs. You take my thoughts out of context when you break them up, apart from their paragraph markings. This also is the case with Biblical passages.

Every verse means exactly what it does, only when you leave it in context. Example; "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me". Does that mean I can go rob a bank and it is Christ who strengthens me? Of course not. It was not the context Paul wrote it in.

I can boil your post down to one question. Can a person forsake Christ, and still have Gods seal - being indwelt with the Spirit?

 

[Nathan]

If that is true, where does the Bible say so in plain words? I see a lot of assuming about verses, but nothing plain about this.


This seems like a word game. However, if our salvation is based on our continuance in Christ, then all the promises about "never perishing" would be false and not true. Like John 3:16 and 10:28.

Also, Eph 1:13-14 tells us that having believed, one is sealed IN HIM with the Spirit. So our "continuance in Christ", from a biblical standpoint, is maintained by our being sealed in Him.

So, if salvation can be forsaken, there needs to be a verse that plainly says so and shows how one can forsake their salvation and indwelling Spirit.


Doubting one's salvation is simply, at that point, NOT believing the promise that Jesus Christ made about those who believe. That they will never perish.


I do not believe anyone can "leave Christ". They can turn their back on Him by losing faith, but I find no Scripture that says that doing so results in loss of salvation or eternal life. It's just an assumption that some make, but without any support from Scripture.


Where does the Bible say that salvation can be forsaken?


Of course.


How many times did John mention "fellowship"? 4x

It is my impression that those who believe that salvation can be lost/forsaken/given up or away/etc seem to have no understanding of what John means by "fellowship" at all.

Can you explain what he was talking about?

Can you forsake Christ, yet retain the Spirit? Any verses you care to show this?

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this;
"His challenge is to prove from Scripture that God's seal (the indwelling Holy Spirit) on His own possession can be broken, for any reason. That's a fair challenge. And an impossible one to prove, since the Bible does not teach that the Holy Spirit can be removed from any person so sealed."

Really?

Yes, really.

Heb 6:4-6 (again!!)
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

Are they still sealed after they fall away?

Yes. Why wouldn't they be? Does the passage SAY that they become unsealed? No, it doesn't. And no other passage says so either.

And Eph 1:13-14, 4:30 and 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5 SAY that having believed we are sealed for the day of redemption.

If that isn't eternal security, just what do these verses teach?

Or are they like those described at Luke 8:13 who "when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away."?
iakov the fool

Yes, they are kinda like that. They have essentially ceased from believing. Yet, on the basis of having believed (aorist tense) they ARE sealed IN HIM with the Spirit, who Jesus PROMISED would be with us forever.

And eternal life is an irrevocable gift of God.

And Jesus promised that those He gives eternal life will never perish.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Those who think salvation can be lost must be able to show that the Holy Spirit can be removed from any who has believed."

This is a Straw Man argument.

Hardly. But I would expect this kind of response from those who cannot show from Scripture that the Holy Spirit can be removed (unsealed) from anyone who has believed.

No one is saying that the Holy Spirit can be removed.

So then, one who is sealed with the Holy Spirit can end up in the lake of fire???? With the irrevocable gift of eternal life???

How does any of that make sense?

But the Holy Spirit can and will depart from a vessel that becomes defiled.

Please quote verses that support your opinions. Otherwise, they will remain as only opinions.

The scriptures repeatedly warn believers that they must stay faithful until then end. If there were no peril, there would be no need for a warning.

Please show any verse that states the peril is hell for anyone who has believed.

The scriptures repeatedly state that having eternal life is conditional based on the believer remaining faithful.

No, what the Bible repeatedly states is that having eternal life is conditioned on believing in Christ, and the aorist tense is used as much as the present tense.

I have posted the relevant scriptures repeatedly.

They weren't relevant.

(Apparently they are not in the OSAS Bible.)

The Bible teaches eternal security. Not insecurity.

(1)

JN 15:1 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit,

15:5 "I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 IF ANYONE DOES NOT REMAIN IN ME, HE IS LIKE A BRANCH THAT IS THROWN AWAY AND WITHERS; SUCH BRANCHES ARE PICKED UP, THROWN INTO THE FIRE AND BURNED.

(2) RO 11:17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21 For IF GOD DID NOT SPARE THE NATURAL BRANCHES, HE WILL NOT SPARE YOU EITHER.

22 CONSIDER THEREFORE THE KINDNESS AND STERNNESS OF GOD: STERNNESS TO THOSE WHO FELL, BUT KINDNESS TO YOU, PROVIDED THAT YOU CONTINUE IN HIS KINDNESS. OTHERWISE, YOU ALSO WILL BE CUT OFF.

So, is this an attempt to base doctrine on metaphors?? One best understand what the metaphor actually means before they do that.

The rest of the verses quoted have been addressed and shown to not teach loss of salvation, even though they are the "go-to" verses in an attempt to prove loss of salvation.

But, sadly for your side, none of them speak plainly about salvation or loss of it. One MUST apply copious amounts of assumption in order to come to such a conclusion.

And, none of those verses "trump" Rom 6:23 with 11:29, that God's gift of eternal life is irrevocable. Just the opposite, in fact. Those 2 verses trump all the verses you've quoted, and prove that they cannot be speaking of loss of salvation.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"However, how can these verses speak of the possibility of loss of salvation when Paul was clear about God's gifts, including the gift of eternal life, are irrevocable?"

That is a totally false meaning applied to Paul's statement about Israel and Israel ONLY.

Where IN THE WORLD did Paul say anything about "Israel ONLY"? That is merely an opinion, and not correct.

It is fake proof.

Your claim is fake news.

The context of that entire passage is about salvation.

How about that? And salvation involves the free gift of eternal life. Which is irrevocable.

You are perverting the message of that passage of scripture in order to support the OSAS nonsense.

This claim is unsubstantiated.
However, how can these verses speak of the possibility of loss of salvation when Paul was clear about God's gifts, including the gift of eternal life, are irrevocable?

You are perverting the message of that passage of scripture in order to support the OSAS nonsense.
But, that is what is necessary to support OSAS: you must try to ignore scriptures that refute it and mangle those that you are unable to ignore.

Your "exegesis" does grotesque violence to the scripture.

Prove your opinion, please. Throwing out charges and claims is quite easy. It's quite a different thing to actually prove your charges and claims.

 

[Nathan]

I said this:
"Those who think salvation can be lost must be able to show that the Holy Spirit can be removed from any who has believed."

Hardly. But I would expect this kind of response from those who cannot show from Scripture that the Holy Spirit can be removed (unsealed) from anyone who has believed.


So then, one who is sealed with the Holy Spirit can end up in the lake of fire???? With the irrevocable gift of eternal life???

How does any of that make sense?


Please quote verses that support your opinions. Otherwise, they will remain as only opinions.


Please show any verse that states the peril is hell for anyone who has believed.


No, what the Bible repeatedly states is that having eternal life is conditioned on believing in Christ, and the aorist tense is used as much as the present tense.


They weren't relevant.


The Bible teaches eternal security. Not insecurity.


So, is this an attempt to base doctrine on metaphors?? One best understand what the metaphor actually means before they do that.

The rest of the verses quoted have been addressed and shown to not teach loss of salvation, even though they are the "go-to" verses in an attempt to prove loss of salvation.

But, sadly for your side, none of them speak plainly about salvation or loss of it. One MUST apply copious amounts of assumption in order to come to such a conclusion.

And, none of those verses "trump" Rom 6:23 with 11:29, that God's gift of eternal life is irrevocable. Just the opposite, in fact. Those 2 verses trump all the verses you've quoted, and prove that they cannot be speaking of loss of salvation.

You keep on referring to it as "lose" of salvation. All that does is add confusion to the topic. Why not refer to it in the correct terms?

Do you not believe the Bible warns about forsaking Christ? Do you actually believe they are false warnings?

 

[FreeGrace]

I hope that what you say about feedback is sincere - seems to be lost in your reply though.

Why? Because I disagreed with your assessment, and provided my reasons for disagreement?

Quoting three different passages is not taking what is said into context. There are many false religions that take way more than 3 passages, and make false doctrines on them that lead people astray.

Yet, no one has shown how context refutes anything I've posted.

Quoting the complete thought, as it was written, inside a single book/letter, is where you will not stray from the truth. Sometimes, in rare instances, a complete though will be said in a single sentence/passage. But the ones you post are not, they have other verses that surround them, which gives context to what was meant.

This seems quite hypocritcal to me. For example, you speak of "complete thought" inside a single letter, yet when I point out that Paul described 3 of God's gifts, including justification and eternal life, and apply them to Rom 11:29, which is in that same letter, those who believe salvation can be lost go to great lengths to try to dissociate 6:23 from 11:29 by all sorts of strange explanations about context, etc.

Kind of like you breaking my post up into sections. I wrote it in complete thoughts, that were separated into paragraphs. You take my thoughts out of context when you break them up, apart from their paragraph markings.

Taking single statements alone is not effected by anything else in that paragraph, unless there was further clarification in that paragraph that has bearing on the single statement. Please show me which "single statements" you posted had further clarification that refuted my understanding of your single statement.

Every verse means exactly what it does, only when you leave it in context.

So, taking a factual statement (verse) alone is somehow changed in meaning when removed from the entire context? How does that work? Please cite at least 1 example of that. Sounds like magical mumbo jumbo.

A single factual statement or verse is STILL a factual statement. Unless there are further clarifications within the paragraph that narrow the meaning down. If I've done that, no one has shown that I've done it.

So far, all the charges and claims have been without any evidence. Making them mere opinions.

Example; "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me". Does that mean I can go rob a bank and it is Christ who strengthens me? Of course not. It was not the context Paul wrote it in.

Oh, good grief. Seriously? Why would anyone apply a crime to such a factual statement? Yet Paul never mentioned "except bank robbing". Come to think of it, he never mentioned the exception of any sin either. So no one should even think what you've come up with.

I can boil your post down to one question. Can a person forsake Christ, and still have Gods seal - being indwelt with the Spirit?

Yes, because there are no verses that warn us of losing the indwelling Holy Spirit.

By now, if there were any such verses, I'm sure they would have been fed to me already. Maybe even shoved down my throat.