Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works

[FreeGrace]

Can you forsake Christ, yet retain the Spirit? Any verses you care to show this?

How about showing any verse that says that one will NOT retain the Sprit for forsaking Christ, or for ANY OTHER REASON?

I've already explained Eph 1:13-14, 4:30 and 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5, and no one has responded by refuting my understanding of these verses.

So it appears that those who disagree with my position are unable to explain what these verses teach, if not eternal security.

 

[FreeGrace]

You keep on referring to it as "lose" of salvation. All that does is add confusion to the topic. Why not refer to it in the correct terms?

Well, there is no "correct" term. Because one who has believed IS saved, HAS eternal life, and will never perish.

So I don't care how it's explained or described. The Bible does not teach conditional security, or eternal insecurity.

Do you not believe the Bible warns about forsaking Christ?

Of course it does. But it's NOT about ending up in the lake of fire.

Do you actually believe they are false warnings?

No. And I know what they are warning about. And I've explained it on many threads, all of which were rejected by those who still think that a believer can end up in hell.

 

[Nathan]

Why? Because I disagreed with your assessment, and provided my reasons for disagreement?


Yet, no one has shown how context refutes anything I've posted.


This seems quite hypocritcal to me. For example, you speak of "complete thought" inside a single letter, yet when I point out that Paul described 3 of God's gifts, including justification and eternal life, and apply them to Rom 11:29, which is in that same letter, those who believe salvation can be lost go to great lengths to try to dissociate 6:23 from 11:29 by all sorts of strange explanations about context, etc.


Taking single statements alone is not effected by anything else in that paragraph, unless there was further clarification in that paragraph that has bearing on the single statement. Please show me which "single statements" you posted had further clarification that refuted my understanding of your single statement.


So, taking a factual statement (verse) alone is somehow changed in meaning when removed from the entire context? How does that work? Please cite at least 1 example of that. Sounds like magical mumbo jumbo.

A single factual statement or verse is STILL a factual statement. Unless there are further clarifications within the paragraph that narrow the meaning down. If I've done that, no one has shown that I've done it.

So far, all the charges and claims have been without any evidence. Making them mere opinions.


Oh, good grief. Seriously? Why would anyone apply a crime to such a factual statement? Yet Paul never mentioned "except bank robbing". Come to think of it, he never mentioned the exception of any sin either. So no one should even think what you've come up with.


Yes, because there are no verses that warn us of losing the indwelling Holy Spirit.

By now, if there were any such verses, I'm sure they would have been fed to me already. Maybe even shoved down my throat.

You don't understand because you keep trying to take things out of context. How can someone have an honest conversation with you when you break up their syatements?

No one is going to shove anything down your throat. If you don't want to understand it's your choice.

Can a person have the Spirit of God if they are not in Christ? The answer to that should tell you whether or not the Spirit remains in a person who forsakes Christ.

You want Biblical passages, specific to your desire of what they say, but the Bible only speaks about the author of salvation - your not going to find salvation in the words themselves.

 

[Nathan]

Well, there is no "correct" term. Because one who has believed IS saved, HAS eternal life, and will never perish.

So I don't care how it's explained or described. The Bible does not teach conditional security, or eternal insecurity.


Of course it does. But it's NOT about ending up in the lake of fire.


No. And I know what they are warning about. And I've explained it on many threads, all of which were rejected by those who still think that a believer can end up in hell.

Your words show you still are not listening. No one believes that a believer in Christ will end up in hell. Only those who deny Him, who are not in Him.

 

[Nathan]

How about showing any verse that says that one will NOT retain the Sprit for forsaking Christ, or for ANY OTHER REASON?

I've already explained Eph 1:13-14, 4:30 and 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5, and no one has responded by refuting my understanding of these verses.

So it appears that those who disagree with my position are unable to explain what these verses teach, if not eternal security.

Eternal security is true, but only in Christ. You are trying to teach it's based on something someone does.

I've asked many times, but I'll ask again for you to explain if your position has changed. Can a person possess eternal life if they leave Christ?

 

[Nathan]

FreeGrace

Do you believe what John writes?

1 John 5
1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.
4 For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world-our faith.
5 Who is it that overcomes the world except the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
6 This is he who came by water and blood-Jesus Christ; not by the water only but by the water and the blood. And the Spirit is the one who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.
7 For there are three that testify:
8 the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three agree.
9 If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater, for this is the testimony of God that he has borne concerning his Son.
10 Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son.
11 And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.
13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.
14 And this is the confidence that we have toward him, that if we ask anything according to his will he hears us.
15 And if we know that he hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have the requests that we have asked of him.
16 If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life-to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that.
17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that does not lead to death.
18 We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning, but he who was born of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him.
19 We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.
20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.
21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols.


If a person who once believed, who obeys His commandment - who then no longer believes and disobeys His commandments -are they still in Christ? Do they still have the Spirit?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Your words show you still are not listening.

And he never will listen. That's why I said you are wasting your time. He is not here for honest discussion and examination of the scriptures.

Hyper-grace doctrine is here in this forum to press it's dogmatic Hyper-grace/ Free-grace agenda. Those who defend it have said some pretty outrageous things just so they can appear to be right. Hyper-grace OSAS was proven wrong in these forums months ago.

I think it unreasonable to hope that false teachers who encourage the people of God that they can deny Christ when the going gets tough and they are still saved will one day admit the horrible stumbling block they are to believer's in Christ. What we are here to do is help the people of God to recognize and reject heretical Hyper/ Free grace doctrine so they can cut off the stumbling block that it is to believers in Christ and so they won't go to the eternal fire (Matthew 18:6-9 NASB). Leave the blind guides for Christ to deal with. He will.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.
13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

Somehow Hyper-grace doctrine insists that these words of John are wrong. Hyper-grace doctrine says that the ex-believer who does not have the Son of God DOES have eternal life. Which we can see is in complete and utter contradiction to John's plain words above. As John plainly says, believers in Christ have eternal life, not those who no longer believe in Christ.

 

[FreeGrace]

You don't understand because you keep trying to take things out of context.

This claim has not been supported by any evidence. It's just a claim.

How can someone have an honest conversation with you when you break up their syatements?

Do any of these "broken up statements" change in meaning when taken alone?

No one is going to shove anything down your throat. If you don't want to understand it's your choice.

Well, then. Give me the choice. Where are the verses that actually say what is being claimed about believers going to hell.

Can a person have the Spirit of God if they are not in Christ?

Seriously? How many times shall I answer this? No. Please figure out some new questions.

The answer to that should tell you whether or not the Spirit remains in a person who forsakes Christ.

Even though the Bible says the sealing with the Spirit is a guarantee of our inheritance, for the day of redemption? And all that from having believed in a point in time.

Sinc there are NO verses that teaches that anyone who has believed can lose the Spirit, your question should be self evident.

You want Biblical passages, specific to your desire of what they say, but the Bible only speaks about the author of salvation - your not going to find salvation in the words themselves.

I will take this as a cop out, a failure to provide any evidence to support your opinions about salvation.

There are NO verses that teach that the Spirit will leave anyone for any reason, yet the assumption is that He will.

There are NO verses that say that salvation can be lost, yet the assumption is that it can.

 

[FreeGrace]

Your words show you still are not listening.

I'm patiently waiting for any verse that supports your opinions.

No one believes that a believer in Christ will end up in hell. Only those who deny Him, who are not in Him.

Please provide any verse that teaches that the Holy Spirit can leave anyone who has believed.

That's how to prove your view.

 

[FreeGrace]

Eternal security is true, but only in Christ.

Correct. And there are no verses that say that anyone who has believed, has been, or can be, removed from being IN HIM.

Please explain what Eph 1:13-14 teaches, if not eternal security.

You are trying to teach it's based on something someone does.

Is believing doing something, or is one's mind in neutral?

I've asked many times, but I'll ask again for you to explain if your position has changed. Can a person possess eternal life if they leave Christ?

They can't leave Christ in the sense of having the Holy Spirit removed from the believer, who is a seal, marking the believer as a possession of God. A guarantee of our inheritance, for the day of redemption.

What is the day of redemption?
When is the day of redemption?

Do you know?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I'm patiently waiting for any verse that supports your opinions.


Please provide any verse that teaches that the Holy Spirit can leave anyone who has believed.

That's how to prove your view.

This is what he does in these forums. He plays this game that you did not post any scriptures that say what we say is true.
Don't give in. Let the blind lead the blind (Matthew 15:14 NASB). They can not lead people who can see. Our job is to help people see so they will then not be able to be lead astray by a blind guide and cast into the eternal fire (Matthew 18:6-9 NASB).

 

[Nathan]

This claim has not been supported by any evidence. It's just a claim.


Do any of these "broken up statements" change in meaning when taken alone?


Well, then. Give me the choice. Where are the verses that actually say what is being claimed about believers going to hell.


Seriously? How many times shall I answer this? No. Please figure out some new questions.


Even though the Bible says the sealing with the Spirit is a guarantee of our inheritance, for the day of redemption? And all that from having believed in a point in time.

Sinc there are NO verses that teaches that anyone who has believed can lose the Spirit, your question should be self evident.


I will take this as a cop out, a failure to provide any evidence to support your opinions about salvation.

There are NO verses that teach that the Spirit will leave anyone for any reason, yet the assumption is that He will.

There are NO verses that say that salvation can be lost, yet the assumption is that it can.

Your making false claims about me, yet you refuse to accept responsibility. I never said believers go to hell. Those are your words. I never said salvation can be lost, only that a person can walk away.

Your showing that you honestly don't want to converse but just argue.

Yes, broken up statements can be viewed wrongly. You are proving this yourself.

 

[FreeGrace]

FreeGraceDo you believe what John writes?

Every word.

1 John 5
1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.
4 For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world-our faith.
5 Who is it that overcomes the world except the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
6 This is he who came by water and blood-Jesus Christ; not by the water only but by the water and the blood. And the Spirit is the one who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.
7 For there are three that testify:
8 the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three agree.
9 If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater, for this is the testimony of God that he has borne concerning his Son.
10 Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son.
11 And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.
13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.
14 And this is the confidence that we have toward him, that if we ask anything according to his will he hears us.
15 And if we know that he hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have the requests that we have asked of him.
16 If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life-to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that.
17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that does not lead to death.
18 We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning, but he who was born of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him.
19 We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.
20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.
21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols.

Yep. Every word.

btw, where in this passage did John warn of loss of salvation, or removal of the Holy Spirit?

If a person who once believed, who obeys His commandment - who then no longer believes and disobeys His commandments -are they still in Christ? Do they still have the Spirit?

Do you believe the guarantee of our inheritance for those having believed in a point in time? Or not.

Do you believe the Holy Spirit indwelling is a seal, marking those having believed, as God's possession? Or not.

 

[Nathan]

Correct. And there are no verses that say that anyone who has believed, has been, or can be, removed from being IN HIM.

Please explain what Eph 1:13-14 teaches, if not eternal security.


Is believing doing something, or is one's mind in neutral?


They can't leave Christ in the sense of having the Holy Spirit removed from the believer, who is a seal, marking the believer as a possession of God. A guarantee of our inheritance, for the day of redemption.

What is the day of redemption?
When is the day of redemption?

Do you know?

The day of rememption is when He will come back and find those in faith, and those not. Which camp will you be in?

1 John 5
6 This is he who came by water and blood-Jesus Christ; not by the water only but by the water and the blood. And the Spirit is the one who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.
7 For there are three that testify:
8 the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three agree.
9 If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater, for this is the testimony of God that he has borne concerning his Son.
10 Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son.
11 And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

 

[Nathan]

Every word.


Yep. Every word.

btw, where in this passage did John warn of loss of salvation, or removal of the Holy Spirit?


Do you believe the guarantee of our inheritance for those having believed in a point in time? Or not.

Do you believe the Holy Spirit indwelling is a seal, marking those having believed, as God's possession? Or not.

I do believe that the Spirit of God is His seal, not something we have done. Do you have the Spirit of God in you?

Romans 8:5 (ESV)
For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit.

Do you set your mind on the Spirit and not the flesh? Do you teach others to set their mind on things they have done, or the Spirit?

 

[FreeGrace]

Somehow Hyper-grace doctrine insists that these words of John are wrong.

Who insists this? Cetainly not me. I believe every word of John. And he never ever taught that anyone having believed could end up in hell for any reason, nor have the Holy Spirit removed from them.

Hyper-grace doctrine says that the ex-believer who does not have the Son of God DOES have eternal life.[/QOUTE]
Because eternal life is a gift of God and God's gifts are irrevocable.

And there are no verses that teach that anyone having believed can be separated from being in Christ. Eph 1:13-14 teach that the Holy Spirit is a seal, marking the believer as a possession of God, guaranteeing their inheritance for the day of redemption.

What do you think the "inheritance for the day of redemption" refers to in Eph 1:13-14?

Which we can see is in complete and utter contradiction to John's plain words above.

Please show this supposed contradiction.j

Many false claims and charges are thrown, but no evidence is provided.

 

[FreeGrace]

This is what he does in these forums. He plays this game that you did not post any scriptures that say what we say is true.

Because they don't say what is being claimed. That's why.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Who insists this? Cetainly not me. I believe every word of John. And he never ever taught that anyone having believed could end up in hell for any reason, nor have the Holy Spirit removed from them.

You are blind. That's why you can not see 1 John 5:11-13 NASB.

 

[FreeGrace]

Your making false claims about me, yet you refuse to accept responsibility. I never said believers go to hell. Those are your words. I never said salvation can be lost, only that a person can walk away.

This is just another example of playing word games.

Your showing that you honestly don't want to converse but just argue.

I have requested evidence for your claims and views, but they don't exist.

Yes, broken up statements can be viewed wrongly. You are proving this yourself.

Then prove your claim that somehow, broken up statement can be viewed wrongly.

Without evidence, this charge is empty.