Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works

[gr8grace3]

If you believe what he says is truth, do you believe someone who does not obey Gods commandments is His child?

1 John 5
1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.
4 For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world-our faith.
5 Who is it that overcomes the world except the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

And yeah, I believe Freegrace has unadulterated, straightforward TRUTH........can't wait to shake his hand in the eternal state.

 

[Nathan]

And yeah, I believe Freegrace has unadulterated, straightforward TRUTH........can't wait to shake his hand in the eternal state.

Again, you deflect the question. Why not answer it? You don't have to of course.

 

[gr8grace3]

Is that what I asked?

So what did you ask?

 

[Nathan]

So what did you ask?

Do you believe that those who do not obey Gods commandments are His Children?

1 John 5
1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.
4 For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world-our faith.
5 Who is it that overcomes the world except the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

 

[Jim Parker]

So then, one who is sealed with the Holy Spirit can end up in the lake of fire???? With the irrevocable gift of eternal life???
How does any of that make sense?

It doesn't make sense at all based on your erroneous assumptions about what it means to be sealed with the Holy Spirit and the gift of eternal life being irrevocable.
But "sealed" doesn't mean what you need it to mean.
And the gift of eternal life is not irrevocable.
You have decided what the Bible must say and then find verses that seem to support what you already believed.

We've been over and over this many times.

Your OSAS beliefs are NOT supported by scripture.
You have to pervert scripture to try to make them look like OSAS is supported.

You want to believe that bunk. OK! Enjoy!

 

[MarkT]

No, clearly not. But doctrine is understood from what has been plainly stated.

I believe one is on dangerous grounds doctrinally when they base doctrines without plainly stated verses.

As I just pointed out in another post, if the sealing in Him with the Holy Spirit could be unsealed, Eph 4:30 would have been the perfect place to make that point, where he mentions grieving the Holy Spirit. Yet, instead of that, Paul emphasizes eternal security by saying we were sealed for the day of redemption.

Grieving the Holy Spirit sure sounds grievous to me. So if salvation could be lost, or the seal unsealed, it would seem that grieving the Spirit would result in that. But Paul never even hints at that. In fact, he "seals" the deal in 4:30 by referencing our sealing with eternal security, which is the same point he makes in Eph 1:14.

If Eph 1:14 and 4:30 do not teach eternal security, I cannot imagine what they are teaching. And no one has offered any idea of what they are teaching, if other than eternal security.

Maybe Paul wasn't expecting your questions?

 

[GodsGrace]

deleted

 

[GodsGrace]

Come on w. Same for you.


His challenge is to prove from Scripture that God's seal (the indwelling Holy Spirit) on His own possession can be broken, for any reason. That's a fair challenge. And an impossible one to prove, since the Bible does not teach that the Holy Spirit can be removed from any person so sealed. Period.

Further, the plain language of Eph 1:14 and 4:30 and 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5 tell us that this seal is for the day of redemption. That's what we're sealed FOR.

iow, if this seal can be broken, then God doesn't keep His promise.
Eph 1:14
who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession — to the praise of his glory.
NIV
Eph 1:14
who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.
NASB
Eph 1:14
14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.
ESV

The ESV is especially straightforward in its wording.

How can one who claims to believe the Bible (including this verse) also believe that they can lose salvation? I do not understand that.


They have been explained.


Why haven't any of these warnings said so in plain language?

Consider this verse:
Eph 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption

If such egregious behavior doesn't break the seal, what on earth can? And I mean from Scripture.


For salvation? Where is that in Scripture?

Here is what IS in Scripture:
John 10:28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand

So, those given eternal life will never perish. That's very plainly what Jesus said. So how can further demands (as you've called them) be true for salvation, given what Jesus promises here? Please explain.

THE WARNINGS:

My question was rhetorical, of course. The many warnings throughout the N.T. were not given for us just to live a good life.
That is PLAIN from reading the N.T. §The warnings were given because they were VERY IMPORTANT. They were meant to keep us on the road to salvation. Final salvation. Which is to come at the end of life. Where we spend eternity was very important to Jesus and the Apostles and to us today. THIS is why such importance was given to Jesus' words to obey HIS commandments and to stay on the narrow path.
John 3.36
Mathew 24:13
John 14:15

We have been saved.........2 Timothy 1:9
We are being saved .........1 Corinthians 1:18
We will be saved............... Romans 5:9-10

SNATCHING

Much is made of this verse.
Now you bring up satan. Satan only has as much power as we give him.
Even HE cannot snatch us out of the hand of God.
Only WE can voluntarily walk away.

THE SEAL

You try to make an entire doctrine out of an idea.
We are sealed with the Holy Spirit for as long as the Holy Spirit is with us.

Do you suppose the HolySpirit can live in the same temple as a sinner gone back into the world?
Do you suppose you can get to heaven practicing what is written in
1 Corinthians 5:9-12
1 Thessalonians 4:1-12
Ephesians 5:1-5
Galatians 5:17.21

Please read also
Galatians 5:17 which states that the flesh and the Holy Spirit are in opposition to each other. They CANNOT live together.
So even if you were sealed, you no longer will be protected by the Holy Spirit if you return to the world and sin and deny God.

THE EARNEST OR GUARANTEE OR PLEDGE (as per the translation used)

A DOWN PAYMENT is given for our salvation.
This is a contract.
2 Corinthians 1:22
Ephesians 1:13

If you purchase a home, you give a down payment with a promise to pay the remainder of the amount, at which time the home becomes yours. The seller promises to give you the home upon full payment.

God KEEPS HIS side of the contract.
Do we keep ours until the end?
THAT is when we receive our "home".

 

[GodsGrace]

It seems my point still isn't being understood. Why believing, you've done something. But something that is non-meritorious.

A jailer wanted to know what he MUST DO to be saved, and Paul answered, "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved".

That's what one MUST DO to be saved.

WHAT exactly must one do to be saved?

WHAT exactly does BELIEVE mean?

I never get an answer to this because it would be detrimental to your way of thinking.

Please answer, if you can.

 

[GodsGrace]

In Luke's genealogy of Jesus, he concludes at 3:8 with "the son of Adam, the son of God."
Since we are all sons of Adam, we are also sons of God in the flesh.
So, in that sense, we are sons of God apart from Christ.
The sense of becoming a child of God at John 1:12 gives a different meaning to the concept.
"But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:"

Thanks for posting this.
It is often forgotten.

God has made all of us. We are all His creation.
Everyone on earth belongs to Him.
But not everyone is a child of His...

 

[GodsGrace]

Maybe Paul wasn't expecting your questions?

There is much truth in your statement.

Paul was writing to persons who understood what it meant to obey God.
Paul was right in preaching Grace since so many were trying to go back to the Law or didn't even really understand what Grace was because they grew up under the Law.

Had Paul known that someone like Calvin was going to make such heretical doctrine out of his words, HE WOULD HAVE BEEN VERY CAREFUL as to what he wrote down.

I do believe that 2,000 years ago CONCEPTS were very different than they are today.
The gospel and salvation message of Christ has been watered down to Easy Believeism and Cheap Grace.

Why cheap?
Because Jesus had to die for us,
and some want to believe they must do NOTHING in return but accept His grace.

They say they muct BELIEVE.
But then they never explain what BELIEVE means in the Greek.

Dangerous ground to walk... the understanding of "Believe". It might require that they change their way of thinking...

 

[GodsGrace]

hello wondering, dirtfarmer here

What does John 10:29 mean, " My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my father's hand." Am I greater than God? How about you, are you greater than God? Where it is stated, " God is greater than all", does that include me or you? If it does, then are we greater than God so that I can pluck myself from his hand, or that you are greater than God so that you can pluck yourself from his hand? I ask this in all sincerity, are we greater than God when it comes to ourselves? Am I, individually, greater than God when it involves me? not any one else. I understand that I can't "pluck you, nor can you pluck me" out of God's hand because I am not powerful enough, nor are you powerful enough.

While we were sinners, did we really have free will? Were we not subject to Satan and under his control and not pleasing to God? It is only after we are in Christ that we have the ability to be pleasing to God, because of Christ not because of ourselves. Christ is the only person that God has made the statement: "In whom I am well pleased".

The promises of God to us are not dependent on our faithfulness, but on God's faithfulness.
1 Thessalonians 5:24, " Faithful is he that calleth you, who will also do it." Where is it stated that the one called has to be faithful unto the end
Philippians 1:6, " Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ." Where is " we have to perform it until the end"?

It is sin, the nature that we were all born with, that keeps God from a relationship with man. For God to look upon that nature without having first judged it before the foundation of the world, would mean that God with his holiness would have to judge every man at his birth without being longsuffering and having mercy.

Hi Dirtfarmer,

You make an interesting point about God being grreater than anyone, even ourselves, and so we, ourselves, cannot leave the hand of God.

While we were sinners I believe we did not have free will.
Only persons who are in Christ are free. "you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free".
The truth is that we were under satan's control and now we are not. Also, many other truths that set us free.
Like following the Laws of Jesus will keep us from much harm.

Also, I believe we are pleasing to God because we love His Son.
But I also cannot say our works have nothing to do with this.

We are covered by Jesus.
Mathew 22:1-4 we must have on the right clothing. The Lord.
Galatians 3:27
Romans 13.14

It's as if God sees His Son and not us --- who, compared to God, will always be a sinful body. Oh wretched man that I am!
With Christ, we are seen as a new creation IN HIS SON. Not of ourselves.

HOWEVER, Jesus came to teach us about the Kingdom of God.
"And the kingdome is already here" because Jesus came to announce it and to teach it.
The Beatitudes in Mathew 5 are the foundation for this Kingdom.
All we are to be and do is within Mathew 5 to 7.

We are to represent the Kingdom here on earth where it begins. We are to promote this Kingdom and do our best to "make it happen". In a sense, we are God's hands and feet, to do His will here on earth.

Now, if I say all this to you, and then I say that I no longer have faith or believe any of the above, do I still have the Holy Spirit?
People who believe in eternal security mean that one CANNOT become lost EVER after accepting Jesus.
Have you not known anyone like this?

One who goes back into the world, cannot still have the HolySpirit with him since the Holy Spirit and flesh cannot live together.
Do you at lease agree to this?

 

[GodsGrace]

I agree with you personally, but I think we have come to a point where semantics are going to be key for understanding the whole thing.

In other words, a person does not lose salvation - they forssake it.

Also, salvation is not dependent on our continuing to believe - it's based on our continuance in Christ.

You and I both know(I think?) that these things seem like your saying the same thing, but in reality there are differences that need to be pointed out.

For example; there are times when a believer will 'doubt' their salvation. John was really good about encouraging believers who doubted. Of course, back then, they were going through very hard times and all they had to look forward to was their eternal life in God.

However, just because a believer 'doubts' for a time, does not mean they leave Christ. So this is the case in where it would not be a correct statement to say our salvation is based on our continuance to believe.

It's only when that doubt continues, and turns into a desire to choose another means of salvation, that a person 'forsakes' Christ. That is what we should all aim to help others avoid. This is best done with encouraging others in Christ - not in something they did.

I'm sure you know this, but Johns encouragement of believers was always in Christ - them in Him - never them in something they did.

1 John 1
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we looked upon and have touched with our hands, concerning the word of life-
2 the life was made manifest, and we have seen it, and testify to it and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was made manifest to us-
3 that which we have seen and heard we proclaim also to you, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ.
4 And we are writing these things so that our joy may be complete.
5 This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
6 If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.
8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Hi Nathan,

You're right. I don't understand the difference.

If I lose something, it means I had something I no longer had.
What is the difference between losing something and forsaking something?
It's abandoned and lost in both cases.

I'm not even sure I understand what 1 John has to do with this?
Of course what John says is right.

Are you saying I could forsake God, but not lose my salvation?
2 Timothy 2:12
If we DENY Him, He will deny us.

(please don't tell me verse 13 means the opposite!!)

Doubt does not cause salvation.
I wouldn't even say sin makes one lose their salvation, unless, as I believe you said, it turns into a LIFE OF SIN,
in which case we are no longer following Christ and His commandments and are, in fact, abandoning Him.

I doubt you'll have much luck in getting people to change their language!
I believe forsake God or our salvation and loss of salvation is the same thing because we are forsaking God and our salvation...

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Fellowship with God and His Son will cease, or die. Yes. That's called "grieving" (Eph 4:30) or "quenching" (1 Thess 5:190 the Spirit.

How come there are no verses that say that "there IS condemnation for those who forsake Christ"?

Absolutely. Every one of them."

Are there more than two conditions of people?

This question fails to answer my question.

Those in Christ, and those not? What's the third? Proof?

I have no idea what your point is. There are saved people and unsaved people.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Now, please do me the return favor by answering this question:
Does disobedience of any of God's commandments change the person from being a child of God to not His child?

And please provide Scripture to support your answer."

If you believe what the Bible explicitly denies, I cannot answer your questions because you will not understand.

The problem is your inability to provide any evidence of "what the Bible explicitly denies".

And your excuse for failing to answer my question is just evidence that there is no answer from your viewpoint.

It cannot be shown from Scripture that any child of God has been, or can be changed to being not a child of God.

 

[FreeGrace]

The Spirit is the seal. No one speaks of unsealing a seal. And no one speaks of unsealing the Spirit. The Spirit may be given or it may be taken away.
Psalm 51:11
Cast me not away from thy presence, and take not thy holy Spirit from me.

Was the Holy Spirit guaranteed to any OT saint? No. It was only when Jesus promised the coming Holy Spirit who would be with us FOREVER. And that didn't happen until He was risen from the grave.

So the indwelling of the Spirit is a NT occurrence. Your verse does not apply to the NT.

Your view is in direct conflict with Jesus' promise in John 14:16 - And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever—

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Where IN THE WORLD did Paul say anything about "Israel ONLY"?"

In that passage, Paul is talking about Israel.

So? Does the gift of irrevocable eternal life belong only to Israel? Or the call of God belong only to Israel?

In that passage, he is NOT talking about salvation of Gentiles.

That hardly matters. Is the irrevocable gift of eternal life belong to Jews only?

It's in the Context.

The context for "the gifts of God" includes EVERYTHING Paul said about God's gifts prior to 11:29.

That includes spiritual gifts in 1:11, justification in 3:24 and 5:15,16,17 and eternal life in 6:23.

You may need to brush up on the meaning of context.

If you need everything to be spelled out for you in so many words then you are going to have some difficulty understanding the Bible.

I'm not the one having the problem. Paul described eternal life as a gift of God, among others, and said that God's gifts are irrevocable.

 

[FreeGrace]

And yeah, I believe Freegrace has unadulterated, straightforward TRUTH........can't wait to shake his hand in the eternal state.

 

[FreeGrace]

It doesn't make sense at all based on your erroneous assumptions about what it means to be sealed with the Holy Spirit and the gift of eternal life being irrevocable.

Please explain what I've assumed. That's a real hoot. I have pointed out the plain language of Scripture in describing eternal life:
1. it is a gift of God: Rom 6:23
2. as a gift of God, eternal life is irrevocable: Rom 11:29

So, please point out where I've assumed anything. The actual assumptions are all on your side.

But "sealed" doesn't mean what you need it to mean.

I don't need anything. And what have I assumed about Eph 1:13,14 that isn't biblical?

And the gift of eternal life is not irrevocable.

This is what you DEMAND (need) in order to preserve your views. But Paul said the gifts of God are irrevocable and that eternal life is a gift of God.

So there is no basis for your claim.

You have decided what the Bible must say and then find verses that seem to support what you already believed.

"Seem to" support??? Seriously? There are verses that in very plain language say what I claim. Which is the ONLY REASON I make that claim.

Your OSAS beliefs are NOT supported by scripture.

This opinion is not supported by Scripture.

You have to pervert scripture to try to make them look like OSAS is supported.

You've shown no such thing. Only your unsupported opinions.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"As I just pointed out in another post, if the sealing in Him with the Holy Spirit could be unsealed, Eph 4:30 would have been the perfect place to make that point, where he mentions grieving the Holy Spirit. Yet, instead of that, Paul emphasizes eternal security by saying we were sealed for the day of redemption.

Grieving the Holy Spirit sure sounds grievous to me. So if salvation could be lost, or the seal unsealed, it would seem that grieving the Spirit would result in that. But Paul never even hints at that. In fact, he "seals" the deal in 4:30 by referencing our sealing with eternal security, which is the same point he makes in Eph 1:14.

If Eph 1:14 and 4:30 do not teach eternal security, I cannot imagine what they are teaching. And no one has offered any idea of what they are teaching, if other than eternal security."

Maybe Paul wasn't expecting your questions?

The real question is why you've deflected to Paul rather than answering my question. Which was what Eph 1:14 and 4:30 teach, if not eternal security.

But apparently you've no answer either.

And Paul wouldn't need to expect my question. Nor would he expect anyone else's question. He was quite clear enough about eternal security.

But since there are those who reject eternal security, why haven't any of them stepped forward to explain what Paul was teaching in Eph 1:14 and 4:30?

It is obvious they have no answers to what Paul was teaching.