Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works

[FreeGrace]

THE WARNINGS:

My question was rhetorical, of course. The many warnings throughout the N.T. were not given for us just to live a good life.
That is PLAIN from reading the N.T. §The warnings were given because they were VERY IMPORTANT.

Of course it is very important for a child of God to be obedient and faithful.

They were meant to keep us on the road to salvation. Final salvation. Which is to come at the end of life.

This is the very problem of your views. These opinions are not supported by Scripture. They have to be assumed to mean these things.

Yet, I've shown the plain language of Scripture that teaches eternal security.

Where we spend eternity was very important to Jesus and the Apostles and to us today.

Of course.

THIS is why such importance was given to Jesus' words to obey HIS commandments and to stay on the narrow path.
John 3.36
Mathew 24:13
John 14:15

We have been saved.........2 Timothy 1:9
We are being saved .........1 Corinthians 1:18
We will be saved............... Romans 5:9-10

It appears that you're not familiar with the 3 tenses of salvation. So I'll summarize for you.

past tense: we have been saved from the penalty of sin, which is called justification
present tense: we are being saved from the power of sin, which is called sanctification
future tense: we will be saved from the presence of sin, which is called glorification

It is necessary to understand these 3 tenses when studying the Bible, in order to know which tense the writer is referring to. Otherwise, one could be led into a lot of false doctrine.

SNATCHING

Much is made of this verse.
Now you bring up satan. Satan only has as much power as we give him.
Even HE cannot snatch us out of the hand of God.
Only WE can voluntarily walk away.

Again, more misunderstanding. It is God who holds us in His hand. You've taken the phrase "walk away" too literally, as if one can really be taken out of union with Christ, which is IMPOSSIBLE because of Eph 1:14 and 4:30.

THE SEAL

You try to make an entire doctrine out of an idea.

Every doctrine is an idea.

We are sealed with the Holy Spirit for as long as the Holy Spirit is with us.

Please support this opinion from Scripture. That's the problem with your views. There is no support for it.

And, if there were, then the Bible would be contradicted. Because Eph 1:14, 4:30 and 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5 DON'T ALLOW for that notion.

Do you suppose the HolySpirit can live in the same temple as a sinner gone back into the world?

I believe the promise that Jesus gave us in John 14:16 - And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever—

That means the opinion of the possibility of the Holy Spirit leaving someone is in direct conflict with Jesus' promise.

Do you suppose you can get to heaven practicing what is written in
1 Corinthians 5:9-12
1 Thessalonians 4:1-12
Ephesians 5:1-5
Galatians 5:17.21

No one will ever get to heaven by practicing ANYTHING.

One only gets to heaven by receiving eternal life (John 3:16, 5:24, 6:40, 47). And Jesus promised that those who receive eternal life will never perish (John 10:28).

Please read also
Galatians 5:17 which states that the flesh and the Holy Spirit are in opposition to each other. They CANNOT live together.
So even if you were sealed, you no longer will be protected by the Holy Spirit if you return to the world and sin and deny God.

THE EARNEST OR GUARANTEE OR PLEDGE (as per the translation used)

A DOWN PAYMENT is given for our salvation.
This is a contract.
2 Corinthians 1:22
Ephesians 1:13

It is a contract that God will not break. Nor do we have to power to break.

What is being guaranteed? Our inheritance for the day of redemption.

If you purchase a home, you give a down payment with a promise to pay the remainder of the amount, at which time the home becomes yours. The seller promises to give you the home upon full payment.

God KEEPS HIS side of the contract.
Do we keep ours until the end?
THAT is when we receive our "home".

This is a very poor analogy. Unless your view is that we've somehow paid for a home in heaven. Is my understanding of your view correct?

Your view is directly contradicted (refuted) by Jesus' promise in John 10:28. Those who receive the gift of eternal life will never perish.

Your view places additional conditions for never perishing. Your views are not in line with Jesus' promise. 2

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:'
"A jailer wanted to know what he MUST DO to be saved, and Paul answered, "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved".

That's what one MUST DO to be saved."

WHAT exactly must one do to be saved?

I just told you. Exactly what Paul told the jailer.

WHAT exactly does BELIEVE mean?

NT:4100 pisteuo (pist-yoo'-o); from NT:4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication, to entrust (especially one's spiritual well-being to Christ):
KJV - believe (-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.

Does this make sense to you?

I never get an answer to this because it would be detrimental to your way of thinking.

How snarky.

Please answer, if you can.

Did.

 

[FreeGrace]

You are blind. You can't see the passages we post. We can.

I came across this verse in my morning Bible reading:
Matt 13:13-14
13 This is why I speak to them in parables: “Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand.
14 In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: “ ‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.

And I thought of you.

 

[chessman]

The birthright is not the same as the inheritance.

I know. And our inheritance from The Father in Heaven is not the same as our inheritance from our fathers in the world.

That's way Peter explains that our new-birth inheritance is in Heaven (not in this world). It is kept unfading, imperishable AND (here's the kicker) reserved for YOU by the power of God through faith.

1 Peter 1:3-5 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, into an inheritance imperishable and undefiled and unfading, reserved in heaven for you who are being protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time,​

The birthright is what we have at birth, and then is later 'exchanged' for our inheritance.

Yes. Thus the reason God protects it for us. It cannot perish/fade or Peter's statement about it becomes untrue.

Your idea has our inheritance fading away versus unfading. Perishing versus living.

 

[GodsGrace]

Of course it is very important for a child of God to be obedient and faithful.


This is the very problem of your views. These opinions are not supported by Scripture. They have to be assumed to mean these things.

Yet, I've shown the plain language of Scripture that teaches eternal security.



Of course.


It appears that you're not familiar with the 3 tenses of salvation. So I'll summarize for you.

past tense: we have been saved from the penalty of sin, which is called justification
present tense: we are being saved from the power of sin, which is called sanctification
future tense: we will be saved from the presence of sin, which is called glorification

It is necessary to understand these 3 tenses when studying the Bible, in order to know which tense the writer is referring to. Otherwise, one could be led into a lot of false doctrine.


Again, more misunderstanding. It is God who holds us in His hand. You've taken the phrase "walk away" too literally, as if one can really be taken out of union with Christ, which is IMPOSSIBLE because of Eph 1:14 and 4:30.


Every doctrine is an idea.


Please support this opinion from Scripture. That's the problem with your views. There is no support for it.

And, if there were, then the Bible would be contradicted. Because Eph 1:14, 4:30 and 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5 DON'T ALLOW for that notion.


I believe the promise that Jesus gave us in John 14:16 - And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever—

That means the opinion of the possibility of the Holy Spirit leaving someone is in direct conflict with Jesus' promise.


No one will ever get to heaven by practicing ANYTHING.

One only gets to heaven by receiving eternal life (John 3:16, 5:24, 6:40, 47). And Jesus promised that those who receive eternal life will never perish (John 10:28).

Please read also
Galatians 5:17 which states that the flesh and the Holy Spirit are in opposition to each other. They CANNOT live together.
So even if you were sealed, you no longer will be protected by the Holy Spirit if you return to the world and sin and deny God.


It is a contract that God will not break. Nor do we have to power to break.

What is being guaranteed? Our inheritance for the day of redemption.


This is a very poor analogy. Unless your view is that we've somehow paid for a home in heaven. Is my understanding of your view correct?

Your view is directly contradicted (refuted) by Jesus' promise in John 10:28. Those who receive the gift of eternal life will never perish.

Your view places additional conditions for never perishing. Your views are not in line with Jesus' promise. 2

Well FreeGrace,
I truly thank you for the lesson in the three tenses of "salvation".
What would I do without you???

Jesus made promises but He also made DEMANDS.
You should try going throught the book Of Mathew, for instance.
I'm not going to post any verses because YOU are so well versed in the New Testament that you have the right and priviledge of saying to those that do not agree with you that they DO NOT UNDERSTAND.

I dare say that YOU are the one who does not understand.

If you notice, where we are made promises they are all made IN CHRIST. While we are in Christ, we are saved.
When we are OUT OF CHRIST, we are NOT saved.

You can twist and turn this as you like. I'm not wasting any further time speaking to you, due to your disparaging attitude.

Just remember this:

IF YOU BELIEVE ...... You are saved.
IF YOU DO NOT BELIEVE... You are NOT saved.

(at whatever time in your life the unbelieving happens, either before or after salvation)

I guess Jesus didn't mean it when He said unproductive branches and trees would be cut down and burned.
Mathew 3:10
Mathew 7:19
Mathew 21:19
John 3:36
John 5:28-29
John 14:15
John 14:6
John 14:23-24
John 15:6
John 15:14

Need more?

Oh. And regarding the Holy Spirit being with us forever.

Jesus was speaking to the Apostles. He was going away but a Helper would come to be with us forever.
With us in general, perhaps?
Individually, perhaps?
How can we be sure what Jesus meant??

The Holy Spirit is NOT with sinners and those who forsake (to use Nathan's term) God.

 

[gr8grace3]

Do you believe that those who do not obey Gods commandments are His Children?

1 John 5
1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.
4 For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world-our faith.
5 Who is it that overcomes the world except the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

If they have ever put their trust in Christ at a point in time, yes.They are disobedient children, but His children.

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.

In reality, there are only 4 commands/mandates for the believer. If we follow these 4 commands........we are doing Gods will for our lives.

Be filled with the Spirit.

Walk in the Spirit.

Do not grieve the Spirit.

Do not quench the Spirit.

So yeah, they are still His children...............................most believers don't even know the above!

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I came across this verse in my morning Bible reading:
Matt 13:13-14
13 This is why I speak to them in parables: “Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand.
14 In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: “ ‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.

And I thought of you.

Let's check how well Hyper-grace/ Free grace doctrine can see:

"23“For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves. 24“When he had begun to settle them, one who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him. 25“But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made.26“So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.’ 27“And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt. 28“But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, ‘Pay back what you owe.’ 29“So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you.’ 30“But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed. 31“So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened. 32“Then summoning him, his lord said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33‘Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34“And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35“My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”" (Matthew 18:23-35 NASB italics in original, bold mine)

Jesus said the man had his forgiveness revoked and his debt reinstated. Now, FreeGrace, make it so this plainly stated fact in scripture about a gift of God being revoked in the kingdom of God will go away. Explain to us how Hyper-grace/Free grace doctrine makes it so Jesus 'didn't really' mean what he said.

 

[Nathan]

Hi Nathan,

You're right. I don't understand the difference.

If I lose something, it means I had something I no longer had.
What is the difference between losing something and forsaking something?
It's abandoned and lost in both cases.

I'm not even sure I understand what 1 John has to do with this?
Of course what John says is right.

Are you saying I could forsake God, but not lose my salvation?
2 Timothy 2:12
If we DENY Him, He will deny us.

(please don't tell me verse 13 means the opposite!!)

Doubt does not cause salvation.
I wouldn't even say sin makes one lose their salvation, unless, as I believe you said, it turns into a LIFE OF SIN,
in which case we are no longer following Christ and His commandments and are, in fact, abandoning Him.

I doubt you'll have much luck in getting people to change their language!
I believe forsake God or our salvation and loss of salvation is the same thing because we are forsaking God and our salvation...

There is a difference, but only when you are trying to get down to the root of an issue. Words each have a specific meaning, and in certain contexts they can even change.

Words are our only source of communication(along with punctuation) on a forum like this. In person, words can be understood by a persons voice and their manners.

Sometimes, even in person, you can communicate with someone without even saying a word.

I just say all of that to say, it might not seem different to you, but it is to other people. I doubt I will have much luck with getting others to change their language. A person has to want another person to understand what they are saying, rather than just want them to agree, before they will change their language.

 

[Nathan]

I said this:
"Now, please do me the return favor by answering this question:
Does disobedience of any of God's commandments change the person from being a child of God to not His child?

And please provide Scripture to support your answer."

The problem is your inability to provide any evidence of "what the Bible explicitly denies".

And your excuse for failing to answer my question is just evidence that there is no answer from your viewpoint.

It cannot be shown from Scripture that any child of God has been, or can be changed to being not a child of God.

The passage I quoted specifically stated that the evidence of a child of God is their love for their brother. This love is evident of their obedience to Gods commands.

You specifically denied this, so you denied very plain passages about who a child of God is.

How can I answer, or even converse with you if you completely deny what John teaches?

 

[Nathan]

I know. And our inheritance from The Father in Heaven is not the same as our inheritance from our fathers in the world.

That's way Peter explains that our new-birth inheritance is in Heaven (not in this world). It is kept unfading, imperishable AND (here's the kicker) reserved for YOU by the power of God through faith.

1 Peter 1:3-5 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, into an inheritance imperishable and undefiled and unfading, reserved in heaven for you who are being protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time,​

Yes. Thus the reason God protects it for us. It cannot perish/fade or Peter's statement about it becomes untrue.

Your idea has our inheritance fading away versus unfading. Perishing versus living.

You forgot to include an underline to the other words in that passage.

How does God keep us? Through faith. If we leave that faith, then we leave that salvation.

Or do you believe that those without faith are heirs of salvation?

 

[chessman]

You forgot to include an underline to the other words in that passage.

Nope. I didn't forget.
I was hoping you'd notice it, in fact.

How does God keep us? Through faith.

Yep. Who's faith, yours or God's?
Be careful (read what Peter said and study it) before answering and support your answer with the Text.

Or do you believe that those without faith are heirs of salvation?

No, I believe the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ caused us to be born again to a living hope.

 

[Nathan]

If they have ever put their trust in Christ at a point in time, yes.They are disobedient children, but His children.

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.

In reality, there are only 4 commands/mandates for the believer. If we follow these 4 commands........we are doing Gods will for our lives.

Be filled with the Spirit.

Walk in the Spirit.

Do not grieve the Spirit.

Do not quench the Spirit.

So yeah, they are still His children...............................most believers don't even know the above!

There are actually only two commandments that are proof of being a child of God. Love for God, and love for the brothers.

So do you believe John was lying? Because I was pretty sure that he said the evidence of a child of God is obedience. Not a one time work done by us.

1 John 5
1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.
4 For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world-our faith.
5 Who is it that overcomes the world except the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

And somewhere hidden in there, you think that it also says you only had to do something at a point in time to be known as a child of God? Could you underline that part for me.

So it seems like your saying it's based on what a person did at one point of time? Do you believe salvation is based on something you did?

Titus 3:5 (ESV)
he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

But we are told of those who will deny this, even denying the Master who bought them, because they don't want to believe in the truth - because of lawlessness. Do you suppose that they too once though(or even still do) that something they did at a point in time made it ok to deny Christ later?

2 Peter 2
1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.
2 And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed.
3 And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.
4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment;
5 if he did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a herald of righteousness, with seven others, when he brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly;
6 if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;
7 and if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the sensual conduct of the wicked
8 (for as that righteous man lived among them day after day, he was tormenting his righteous soul over their lawless deeds that he saw and heard);
9 then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment,
10 and especially those who indulge in the lust of defiling passion and despise authority. Bold and willful, they do not tremble as they blaspheme the glorious ones,
11 whereas angels, though greater in might and power, do not pronounce a blasphemous judgment against them before the Lord.
12 But these, like irrational animals, creatures of instinct, born to be caught and destroyed, blaspheming about matters of which they are ignorant, will also be destroyed in their destruction,
13 suffering wrong as the wage for their wrongdoing. They count it pleasure to revel in the daytime. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their deceptions, while they feast with you.
14 They have eyes full of adultery, insatiable for sin. They entice unsteady souls. They have hearts trained in greed. Accursed children!
15 Forsaking the right way, they have gone astray. They have followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved gain from wrongdoing,
16 but was rebuked for his own transgression; a speechless donkey spoke with human voice and restrained the prophet's madness.

 

[FreeGrace]

Well FreeGrace,
I truly thank you for the lesson in the three tenses of "salvation".

You are very welcome.

What would I do without you???

Heaven only knows. ;)

Jesus made promises but He also made DEMANDS.

C'mon. Does any demand negate any of God's promises? It can't. If God's promises are based on man's actions, then they are no promises at all.

You should try going throught the book Of Mathew, for instance.

Funny you should say that. I've been reading through it for the past several days.

I'm not going to post any verses because YOU are so well versed in the New Testament that you have the right and priviledge of saying to those that do not agree with you that they DO NOT UNDERSTAND.

No, I'll let Matthew himself explain what's going on.
Matt 13:14 - In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: “ ‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.

And you've just given an example by your comment about God's promises and demands. I've shown plain language about eternal security and you're trying to twist it by trying to hang a demand upon it.

Here's the plain language: John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Now, this is a promise from Jesus about those who receive (I give them) eternal life: the promise is this: they will never perish.

However, your comment about demands is an attempt to squeeze in additional requirements to Jesus' promise.

iow, seeing the verse in John 10:28 doesn't mean one perceives the verse.

I dare say that YOU are the one who does not understand.

You're free to say anything.

If you notice, where we are made promises they are all made IN CHRIST. While we are in Christ, we are saved.
When we are OUT OF CHRIST, we are NOT saved.

What your side hasn't even come close to doing is showing from Scripture that Paul lied in Eph 1:13,14, 4:30 and 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5 about the sealing with the Holy Spirit.

The basis for being sealed IN HIM with the Spirit is "having believed". The aorist tense refutes the notion that one must continue to believe in order to continue to be sealed.

Paul then continues to say that this sealing is a guarantee of our inheritance for the day of redemption.

So the notion that one who has been sealed can be "unsealed" or be removed from being IN HIM is unfounded.

You can twist and turn this as you like. I'm not wasting any further time speaking to you, due to your disparaging attitude.

I suppose being routinely refuted from Scripture could be seen as disparaging. But just know that it's Scripture that disparages your views.

I'm just the messenger.

Just remember this:

IF YOU BELIEVE ...... You are saved.
IF YOU DO NOT BELIEVE... You are NOT saved.

Exactly!

(at whatever time in your life the unbelieving happens, either before or after salvation)

So, please show from Scripture where that is taught.

I guess Jesus didn't mean it when He said unproductive branches and trees would be cut down and burned.
Mathew 3:10
Mathew 7:19
Mathew 21:19
John 3:36
John 5:28-29
John 14:15
John 14:6
John 14:23-24
John 15:6
John 15:14

Oh, He certainly did mean it. But just not the way your side keeps trying to twist it.

Jesus promised that those He gives eternal life will never perish. That is extremely clear. To believe that salvation can be lost is to directly disagree with Jesus.

Need more?

No point. Jesus' promise about never perishing is clear enough to know that there are no verses that support your views.

Oh. And regarding the Holy Spirit being with us forever.

Jesus was speaking to the Apostles. He was going away but a Helper would come to be with us forever.
With us in general, perhaps?
Individually, perhaps?
How can we be sure what Jesus meant??

Yes, we can be sure. Paul made it clear.
Gal 3:2, 5
2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?
5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?

Now, a simple question:

Was Paul addressing any of the apostles regarding receiving the Spirit?

The Holy Spirit is NOT with sinners and those who forsake (to use Nathan's term) God.

I use the terms found in the Bible, not terms made up of opinions and assumptions.

 

[Nathan]

Nope. I didn't forget.
I was hoping you'd notice it, in fact.


Yep. Who's faith, yours or God's?
Be careful (read what Peter said and study it) before answering and support your answer with the Text.


No, I believe the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ caused us to be born again to a living hope.

Oh, well good.

You have been around me this long, and you doubt I know what faith is?

Ephesians 2
1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience-
3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ-by grace you have been saved-
6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Faith is from God. He gives it to us. We walk it in.

So do those who turn away from the faith have another source of salvation? Do you believe that they can produce faith in themselves apart from God, based on something they did?

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"I came across this verse in my morning Bible reading:
Matt 13:13-14
13 This is why I speak to them in parables: “Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand.
14 In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: “ ‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.

And I thought of you."

Let's check how well Hyper-grace/ Free grace doctrine can see:

"23“For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves. 24“When he had begun to settle them, one who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him. 25“But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made.26“So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.’ 27“And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt. 28“But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, ‘Pay back what you owe.’ 29“So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you.’ 30“But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed. 31“So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened. 32“Then summoning him, his lord said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33‘Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34“And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35“My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”" (Matthew 18:23-35 NASB italics in original, bold mine)

Jesus said the man had his forgiveness revoked and his debt reinstated. Now, FreeGrace, make it so this plainly stated fact in scripture about a gift of God being revoked in the kingdom of God will go away.

Thank you for once again demonstrating exactly what Matt 13:14 refers to.

Here's some context for v.14:
13 This is why I speak to them in parables: “Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand. 14 In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: “ ‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.

And what you've given is a PARABLE, which is exactly what v.14 is referring to.

I NEVER use parables to form doctrines. For that very reason.

Even Jesus' disciples didn't understand them. So why should anyone accept doctrine created from parables?

Explain to us how Hyper-grace/Free grace doctrine makes it so Jesus 'didn't really' mean what he said.

Oh, He really did mean what He said. And what He was speaking about was forgiveness. We need to forgive others because we've been forgiven. That's how parables work.

But, to challenge you on your comment about Jesus "really meaning" what He said, how about John 10:28?
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

What He just kidding? Or did He "really mean it"?

If He really meant it, then He was teaching eternal security.

If He wasn't teaching eternal security, just what was he teaching?

Do you have any idea?

 

[FreeGrace]

The passage I quoted specifically stated that the evidence of a child of God is their love for their brother. This love is evident of their obedience to Gods commands.

And, not all of God's children show evidence of being so. Quite sad. But don't make the error of thinking that one's evidence is what saves.

You specifically denied this, so you denied very plain passages about who a child of God is.

No, you've misunderstood what the passage was saying.

How can I answer, or even converse with you if you completely deny what John teaches?

I've never done that.

How about John 10:28 where John quoted Jesus' promise:
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Was Jesus kidding? Or did He really mean it?

The whole basis for never perishing is to receive eternal life. Which is different than your view.

 

[Nathan]

You are very welcome.


Heaven only knows. ;)


C'mon. Does any demand negate any of God's promises? It can't. If God's promises are based on man's actions, then they are no promises at all.


Funny you should say that. I've been reading through it for the past several days.


No, I'll let Matthew himself explain what's going on.
Matt 13:14 - In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: “ ‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.

And you've just given an example by your comment about God's promises and demands. I've shown plain language about eternal security and you're trying to twist it by trying to hang a demand upon it.

Here's the plain language: John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Now, this is a promise from Jesus about those who receive (I give them) eternal life: the promise is this: they will never perish.

However, your comment about demands is an attempt to squeeze in additional requirements to Jesus' promise.

iow, seeing the verse in John 10:28 doesn't mean one perceives the verse.


You're free to say anything.


What your side hasn't even come close to doing is showing from Scripture that Paul lied in Eph 1:13,14, 4:30 and 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5 about the sealing with the Holy Spirit.

The basis for being sealed IN HIM with the Spirit is "having believed". The aorist tense refutes the notion that one must continue to believe in order to continue to be sealed.

Paul then continues to say that this sealing is a guarantee of our inheritance for the day of redemption.

So the notion that one who has been sealed can be "unsealed" or be removed from being IN HIM is unfounded.


I suppose being routinely refuted from Scripture could be seen as disparaging. But just know that it's Scripture that disparages your views.

I'm just the messenger.


Exactly!


So, please show from Scripture where that is taught.


Oh, He certainly did mean it. But just not the way your side keeps trying to twist it.

Jesus promised that those He gives eternal life will never perish. That is extremely clear. To believe that salvation can be lost is to directly disagree with Jesus.


No point. Jesus' promise about never perishing is clear enough to know that there are no verses that support your views.


Yes, we can be sure. Paul made it clear.
Gal 3:2, 5
2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?
5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?

Now, a simple question:

Was Paul addressing any of the apostles regarding receiving the Spirit?


I use the terms found in the Bible, not terms made up of opinions and assumptions.

In that passage you quote one verse of, in John 10, Jesus prefaced His statement of eternal life with the fact that His sheep follow Him.

Do you believe His sheep follow Him, or do you believe they don't?

 

[Nathan]

And, not all of God's children show evidence of being so. Quite sad. But don't make the error of thinking that one's evidence is what saves.


No, you've misunderstood what the passage was saying.


I've never done that.

How about John 10:28 where John quoted Jesus' promise:
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Was Jesus kidding? Or did He really mean it?

The whole basis for never perishing is to receive eternal life. Which is different than your view.

Actually, the whole purpose for never perishing is so we can live with Him forever. Not just so we can never perish. One is a focus on Him, the other is a focus on us. Where is your focus?

My view is that He gives life to those who are in Him - based on His desire for us. You view is He gives life to someone who is not in Him - and it's based on something they did.

John is clear, the evidence of being a child is being in Christ. Do you believe a child of God can be outside of Christ?

1 John 3
1 See what kind of love the Father has given to us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are. The reason why the world does not know us is that it did not know him.
2 Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is.
3 And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure.
4 Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness.
5 You know that he appeared to take away sins, and in him there is no sin.
6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him.
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous.
8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.
9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.
10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

Do you believe that a person who has one time believed in Christ, who then turns to practicing lawlessness, still is a child of God?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

But, to challenge you on your comment about Jesus "really meaning" what He said, how about John 10:28?
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

What He just kidding? Or did He "really mean it"?

If He really meant it, then He was teaching eternal security.

If He wasn't teaching eternal security, just what was he teaching?

This has been explained to you so many times that's it's a joke now that you can't comprehend the argument.
Everything Jesus said about being eternally and forever secure is in regard to the person who BELIEVES, not the person who does not believe.

All the passages about losing eternal life do not negate what Jesus said about never perishing because what Jesus said is for the believer, not for those who have stopped believing. OSAS interpretations nullify the non-OSAS passages, but the non-OSAS passages do not nullify the passages OSAS uses to defend itself. I challenge you or anybody else to put them side by side for the humble and teachable to see for themselves that this is true.

I don't expect you to even understand the argument, let alone agree with it. I have posted this for the benefit of the humble and searching, not the closed minded and dogmatic.

Oh, He really did mean what He said. And what He was speaking about was forgiveness. We need to forgive others because we've been forgiven. That's how parables work.

And so you are just going to simply ignore what Jesus plainly says will happen to the forgiven person if they themselves do not forgive? Explain to us how Free Grace doctrine makes what Jesus said will happen to the forgiven person if they do not then forgive that Jesus plainly taught in Matthew 18:23-35 NASB go away.

We will do this with many scriptures and we will keep count of the passages that have to be explained away for Free Grace doctrine to be true in order to make them not mean what they so plainly say. Then teachable, humble people will see how unreasonable it is that a doctrine has to rely on so many passages of scripture being explained away for Hyper Grace doctrine to be true.

 

[chessman]

You have been around me this long, and you doubt I know what faith is?

Yep.

Faith is from God. He gives it to us. We walk it in.

Yep. And It's as alive as Christ is.

Thus, Peter (and Paul) can rightly claim that our inheritance (which is protected by God through it, Faith from God) is imperishable (can not perish) and is unfading (does not fade).

So do those who turn away from the faith have another source of salvation?

No. Nor do they have a newbirth or the birth rights that go with it (an inheritance reserved in Heaven). 'They' never had God given faith.

Do you believe that they can produce faith in themselves apart from God, based on something they did?

No. That's as ridiculous as someone's reserved God protected inheritance fading.