Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works

[JLB]

The perfect time to teach such an idea would have been in the parable of the soils regarding soil #2. Yet, Jesus said nothing about losing salvation. His only point was that such a person doesn't produce fruit.

11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. 14 Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. 15 But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience. Luke 11-15

So you believe people who fall away, and never produce fruit and saved?


Here is what Jesus said about those who produce no fruit.

Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
John 15:2

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Those who are "in Christ", that don't remain connected "in Christ", end up thrown into the fire and are burned.


As He said to His servants on the Day of Judgement:

41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
44 “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Matthew 25:41-46

‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

The reason: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’



JLB

 

[JLB]

Then Paul described eternal life as a gift of God in Rom 6:23,

Romans 6:23 does not say eternal life is a gift of God, those are your words.

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.
20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:19-23

Those Christians who live a life of sin, will receive the wages of sin, which is death.
Those Christians who live by the Spirit, and produce fruit unto holiness, will in the end, receive everlasting life.



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Paul taught us those who will receive eternal life, and those who don't.

The Key Phrase: God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”

God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:
eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
Romans 2:6-8

That's NOT what he taught. Rom 3:20 refutes any idea that anyone can earn eternal life through patient endurance in doing good.

God sent His Son to pay the price for our sins

That's why no one goes to hell for their sins. They will cast into the lake of fire because they never received the free gift of eternal life, which is though faith in Jesus Christ.



JLB[/QUOTE]

 

[FreeGrace]

So, those are all NT passages, any from the OT?

Didn't the phrase "Moses and the prophets" catch your attention? Moses and the prophets were ALL from the OT. So there is no difference between salvation in the OT and the NT. None.

 

[Nathan]

Didn't the phrase "Moses and the prophets" catch your attention? Moses and the prophets were ALL from the OT. So there is no difference between salvation in the OT and the NT. None.

Right, so then there are OT passages that talk about salvation - right? Not just NT passages that talk about OT people?

 

[FreeGrace]

Romans 6:23 does not say eternal life is a gift of God, those are your words.

Seriously? Of course it does. It's hard to think that a Christian would deny what Rom 6:23 says.

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23[/QUOTE]
OK, how does the word "in" change my view of the FACT that "the gift of God IS eternal life". It's still a gift of God. And, yes, it's a gift that is given to those who believe and have been sealed with the Holy Spirit In Christ.

Your comment does not disprove my claim.

Those Christians who live a life of sin, will receive the wages of sin, which is death.

Please prove from Scripture that those who HAVE eternal life can lose it for any reason.

Those Christians who live by the Spirit, and produce fruit unto holiness, will in the end, receive everlasting life.JLB

This view is in direct contrast with Jesus' words in John 5:24 where He said that those who believe HAVE eternal life.

 

[FreeGrace]

Right, so then there are OT passages that talk about salvation - right? Not just NT passages that talk about OT people?

The verses I provided speak for themselves. I'm not sure what you're looking for. But from what has been said about "Moses and the prophets" from the OT should be clear enough that there is no difference between OT salvation and NT salvation.

 

[FreeGrace]

The Arminian view of salvation has been refuted by Jesus' words in John 10:28, in combination with John 5:24.

10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

So, the question is; who are "them" that He gives eternal life to? The answer is found in 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me HAS eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

So, those who believe HAVE eternal life.

So, the SOLE CONDITION for never perishing is based on receiving eternal life.

And we know from 5:24 WHEN one receives eternal life; WHEN they believe. So, by the plain fact that one receives (HAS) eternal life, they WILL NEVER PERISH. A guarantee from Jesus.

If the Arminian view that as long as one believes, they have eternal life, and if they cease to believe, they cease to have eternal life, then what Jesus said would be WRONG.

He would have said this in 10:28 - "I give them (believers) eternal life (when they believe), and AS LONG AS they continue to believe, they WILL NEVER PERISH.

But, He never said that. So Arminians make a claim that Jesus NEVER made.

Jesus gave NO CONDITIONS for never perishing to those He gives eternal life. By the plain fact that believers are given and therefore HAVE eternal life, they will never perish.

That, friends, is eternal security.

Conditional security is not a biblical doctrine. It is an Arminian doctrine.

 

[Nathan]

The verses I provided speak for themselves. I'm not sure what you're looking for. But from what has been said about "Moses and the prophets" from the OT should be clear enough that there is no difference between OT salvation and NT salvation.

I am asking for OT passages themselves, not NT passages that talk about OT people. I find it interesting that people do believe salvation is the same, but never can come up with OT passages that deal with it. There was around 4000 years of OT history before the NT, and only 2000 years of history since then. Yet 99.99% of the passages we 'proof text' come from the period of time that is half that of the other time.

I just find it interesting.

 

[JLB]

I believe what the Bible says, apart from any assumptions. If one has believed, as Jesus noted regarding soil #2, they HAVE eternal life, as Jesus said in John 5:24.

Again, you misquote the scripture, and you ignore the context.

Jesus says "believes", not "has believed".

“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

Eternal life is for those who believe.

Those who believe for a while, then no longer believe, are no longer believer's.


Jesus goes on to say, which qualifies what believes actually means: Those who believe the Gospel, are those who obey the Gospel.

...all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28


24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:24-29


...all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28

• Same thing Paul taught:

God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:
eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
Romans 2:6-8




JLB

 

[JLB]

The Arminian view of salvation has been refuted by Jesus' words in John 10:28, in combination with John 5:24.

...all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28



JLB

 

[JLB]

Seriously? Of course it does. It's hard to think that a Christian would deny what Rom 6:23 says.

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

OK, how does the word "in" change my view of the FACT that "the gift of God IS eternal life". It's still a gift of God. And, yes, it's a gift that is given to those who believe and have been sealed with the Holy Spirit In Christ.

Your comment does not disprove my claim.[/QUOTE]

You misquote the scriptures and take them out of context.


For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23


Eternal life is for those who are "in" Christ Jesus our Lord.

Those who are "in Him" but do not remain "in Him", are cast into the fire and burned.


6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


JLB

 

[Nathan]

The Arminian view of salvation has been refuted by Jesus' words in John 10:28, in combination with John 5:24.

10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

So, the question is; who are "them" that He gives eternal life to? The answer is found in 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me HAS eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

So, those who believe HAVE eternal life.

So, the SOLE CONDITION for never perishing is based on receiving eternal life.

And we know from 5:24 WHEN one receives eternal life; WHEN they believe. So, by the plain fact that one receives (HAS) eternal life, they WILL NEVER PERISH. A guarantee from Jesus.

If the Arminian view that as long as one believes, they have eternal life, and if they cease to believe, they cease to have eternal life, then what Jesus said would be WRONG.

He would have said this in 10:28 - "I give them (believers) eternal life (when they believe), and AS LONG AS they continue to believe, they WILL NEVER PERISH.

But, He never said that. So Arminians make a claim that Jesus NEVER made.

Jesus gave NO CONDITIONS for never perishing to those He gives eternal life. By the plain fact that believers are given and therefore HAVE eternal life, they will never perish.

That, friends, is eternal security.

Conditional security is not a biblical doctrine. It is an Arminian doctrine.

I find it interesting that people don't look at the true meaning of words used. You are studying from an English language Bible. That Bible was translated from a Greek language Bible. In the original(that means it predates the Bible you have) manuscripts, the words used for believing and hearing - both found in the passages you proof text - are in the present tense and active voice.

Now, I am not a Greek scholar, but I know enough to make me dangerous. What those present and active words mean, is that those words "believe" and "hear" are only applicable to the ones who believe and keep believing, and the ones who hear and keep on hearing.

So, when you indicate that Jesus didn't mean they had to or "as long as" they do, your absolutely wrong. The words used actually do say that. You just don't read it in the English language. Now, if you wish to hold to a copy of Jesus words that mean what you want them to mean, that's your choice. But, I can say with zero doubt, that the passages you are proof texting do say it is only for those who keep believing and keep hearing.

Here is a ling to the Greek interlinear Bible so you can see what the original manuscripts said and the links to the word meanings. If you so choose to study.

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/5.htm

 

[JLB]

In the original(that means it predates the Bible you have) manuscripts, the words used for believing and hearing - both found in the passages you proof text - are in the present tense and active voice.

Which makes all the difference in the world.

Believe is the condition to being saved.

Those who "understand" this condition for being saved, are the ones who are fruitful.

23 But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.” Matthew 13:23



JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I agree with the above statements. Never said otherwise.

Yes, but do you agree with the rest of what I said?

But the flesh itself has to be crucified daily.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I'm still waiting for any verse that teaches that any believer who ceases to believe will lose their salvation.

Stop redefining terms and you'll see them.
That is if it's not too late for you to see them.

 

[FreeGrace]

I am asking for OT passages themselves, not NT passages that talk about OT people. I find it interesting that people do believe salvation is the same, but never can come up with OT passages that deal with it.

That seems to suggest that Jesus and Paul weren't being honest in what they said about Moses and the prophets. Paul clearly taught salvation through faith in Christ (Messiah). And he told others that he wasn't saying "anything beyond" what Moses and the prophets said.

Acts 26:22-23 - But I have had God's help to this very day, and so I stand here and testify to small and great alike. I am saying nothing beyond what the prophets and Moses said would happen— 23 that the Christ would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would proclaim light to his own people and to the Gentiles."

 

[Nathan]

That seems to suggest that Jesus and Paul weren't being honest in what they said about Moses and the prophets. Paul clearly taught salvation through faith in Christ (Messiah). And he told others that he wasn't saying "anything beyond" what Moses and the prophets said.

Acts 26:22-23 - But I have had God's help to this very day, and so I stand here and testify to small and great alike. I am saying nothing beyond what the prophets and Moses said would happen— 23 that the Christ would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would proclaim light to his own people and to the Gentiles."

Not at all. I think you may not be seeing what I am asking?

I am asking, where in the OT do we find these passages. I believe the NT are 100% true when they talk about the OT people seeing the coming Salvation of God. So, do you not see these passages written in the OT?

Think of it this way. Say you were one of the first people the Apostle Paul came to. There was no 'New Testament' Bible back then. All they had was the "Old Testament" Scriptures. When Paul begins to say that Jesus is the Christ, and teaches about Salvation, he taught them from the "Old Testament" Scriptures. So, we see the Bereans 'searching' out those things Paul taught - to see if they were true. Which passages do you think the Bereans may have looked at?

 

[FreeGrace]

Again, you misquote the scripture, and you ignore the context.

Please show what verse Ihave supposedly misquoted. And how any context changes what I have posted.

Jesus says "believes", not "has believed".

“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

And what is the point here? That one HAS eternal life when one believes. That is my point.

And, John 10:28 says that those Jesus gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH.

ternal life is for those who believe.

Yep.

Those who believe for a while, then no longer believe, are no longer believer's.

But immaterial, because Jesus said that those He GIVES eternal life to WILL NEVER PERISH in John 10:28.

10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

So, the question is; who are "them" that He gives eternal life to? The answer is found in 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me HAS eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

So, those who believe HAVE eternal life.

So, the SOLE CONDITION for never perishing is based on receiving eternal life.

And we know from 5:24 WHEN one receives eternal life; WHEN they believe. So, by the plain fact that one receives (HAS) eternal life, they WILL NEVER PERISH. A guarantee from Jesus.

Jesus goes on to say, which qualifies what believes actually means: Those who believe the Gospel, are those who obey the Gospel.

Do we find this condition in John 10:28? No. There are no conditions. What Jesus promised is quite clear; those He gives (on the basis of believing in Him) WILL NEVER PERISH.

If the OSNAS view that as long as one believes, they have eternal life, and if one cease to believe, they cease to have eternal life, then what Jesus said would be WRONG.

He would have said this in 10:28 - "I give them (believers) eternal life (when they believe), and AS LONG AS they continue to believe, they WILL NEVER PERISH.

But, He never said that. So OSNAS makes a claim that Jesus NEVER made.

...all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28

Great verse. But how does it refute anything I've posted??

24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:24-29


...all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28

So, believing doesn't result in salvation and resurrection? It's just "doing good"?

 

[FreeGrace]

...all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28
JLB

I think it should be obvious that those "who are in the graves" have already died and therefore, their fate is sealed. We know from many Scriptures that salvation is based on faith in Christ, not "doing good". That's what the Pharisees thought about salvation. Based on doing good.