Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works

[gr8grace3]

Is there salvation in someone/something other than Christ?

Nathan, it sure seems to me that you think there is. You keep advocating that we can lose salvation. So your salvation hinges upon YOU.

There is salvation in no other than the Lord Jesus Christ. So my salvation doesn't hinge upon what I do or don't do after he saves me.

Do you consider yourself saved at this moment?

 

[Nathan]

Not necessarily. If we were saved BY belief and not BY His Grace............we would have to continue to believe in order to be saved.

Acts 16:31~~~~Saved the MOMENT we believe. BY His grace. Eph 2:5.

So you think we are saved by something we did? Salvation as a result of works?

 

[Nathan]

Oh, okay.


It's a fine answer. Just not sure why you brought theses analogies (not references to Scripture) up in a theological discussion.

They fit the bill.

 

[Nathan]

Nathan, it sure seems to me that you think there is. You keep advocating that we can lose salvation. So your salvation hinges upon YOU.

There is salvation in no other than the Lord Jesus Christ. So my salvation doesn't hinge upon what I do or don't do after he saves me.

Do you consider yourself saved at this moment?

Quite the opposite. My salvation is in Christ. Where is your salvation?

I believe He will always save me. Do you believe He only saves you when you believe?

I know I'm saved at this moment, based on the fact I'm in Christ. Do you believe your saved this moment? Is it based on something you did, or who you are in?

 

[Nathan]

No.

2 Peter 2:20 For if, after they have escaped from the defilements of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and they are again entangled in these things and succumb to them, the last state has become worse for them than the first. ​

I asked about verses where Jesus describes "one who no longer believes"?

Last time I was in English class, having "knowledge" of the Lord Jesus is not "believing" in Him.

BTW, Peter is not Jesus


Okay. I'll tell you about "false teachers".

2 Peter 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, as there will be false teachers among you also, who will bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, thus bringing on themselves swift destruction.​

I does to me.

Jesus said;

Luke 8:13 (ESV)
And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away.

Do you believe what Jesus said is true?

 

[Nathan]

If Paul said,"shall not ENTER the kingdom of God." I would say," No, they are not still saved."

But He didn't. He said they, "Shall not INHERIT the kingdom."

1 Cor 3:15~~New American Standard Bible
If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss(loss of inheritance); but he himself will be saved(enter the kingdom), yet so as through fire.

And you find that they no longer believed where?

 

[gr8grace3]

Quite the opposite. My salvation is in Christ. Where is your salvation?

Where am I not being Clear? My salvation is in Him. Same as yours. If my salvation was in me or anything else.......I could and WOULD lose it.

I believe He will always save me.

So why are you trying to convince us that he will not always save you? It makes no sense.

Do you believe He only saves you when you believe?

Acts 16:31~~the moment we believe, He saves us. There is NO other way.

I know I'm saved at this moment, based on the fact I'm in Christ. Do you believe your saved this moment? Is it based on something you did, or who you are in?

I know I am saved. And it is based upon something HE did. We are not only in Christ, we are a part of His Body. If we could lose salvation Christ would have to mutilate Himself.

Eph 5~~ 29for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church, 30 because we are members of His body.

 

[Nathan]

Where am I not being Clear? My salvation is in Him. Same as yours. If my salvation was in me or anything else.......I could and WOULD lose it.


So why are you trying to convince us that he will not always save you? It makes no sense.


Acts 16:31~~the moment we believe, He saves us. There is NO other way.



I know I am saved. And it is based upon something HE did. We are not only in Christ, we are a part of His Body. If we could lose salvation Christ would have to mutilate Himself.

Eph 5~~ 29for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church, 30 because we are members of His body.

So salvation is in Him right?

If a person leaves Him, are they still in salvation?

 

[dirtfarmer]

Why is it hard to understand Gods sovereignty?

Does God want all people to be saved, yet gives them the choice to believe?

So why do we think that what we do locks us in?

Why wouldn't we just understand that if you are in Christ then you will be saved?

Why does it always revert back to something man has done in order to be saved?

hello Nathan, dirtfarmer here

What is it about God's sovereignty that causes a believer to become an unbeliever? The only one that is espousing that man controls his salvation is you. It is not sin that makes us sinners, but a decree from God that all have sinned. We sin because we are sinners. Scripture states that even when sin was not imputed because there was law, man still died: Romans 5:13-15

Is unbelief a sin? So, if man is reverting back to unbelief, he is becoming a sinner again? In the physical life that we live on earth, when are we ever without a sin nature? We have been saved from the power of that sin nature, in that it has no more dominion over us. We have been saved from the penalty of that sin nature. Our spirit has be made alive to the Spirit of God and has been separated from the "soul", the fleshy, worldly part of us. That old man has died and our life is hid in Christ. But, we have yet to be saved from the presence of sin. This will happen when we are no longer present in this world controlled by Satan, but have been resurrected with our glorified physical body in the presence of Christ in heaven. As long as we are pilgrims here, but our citizenship is in heaven, we will ,from time to time, be overtaken by faults, but that doesn't mean that God sees us as sinners. Being in Christ means that when God looks at man, He sees either that "old Adam" made a living soul, or He sees the last Adam a life quickening spirit.

What is it that "makes" us in Christ? What and where have I stated that man has to do something in order to be saved?
My understanding is that salvation is a gift from God and that when we believe, we are "put in Christ".

2 Timothy 1:10, " But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:" What death has been abolished? it is separation from God? What gospel brought life and immortality? was it not Faith in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ?

Even in the old testament during the time of law, it was faith in God's word that brought salvation, not keeping the law. Keeping the law kept and restored fellowship, but never brought entrance into the rest of God, the promised land. Why were the Israelites "cutoff" because of the sin of unbelief. It was never because they believed and then "disbelieved". It was because of unbelief, they never believed God could and would take them to the promised land. He fed them, clothes and shoes lasted 40 years, provide water from the rock that followed. Gave the shelter from the heat by the cloud during the day and guidance by the pillar of fire and the cloud that moved.

.

 

[gr8grace3]

So salvation is in Him right?

I honestly don't know how I can be any clearer.........YES

If a person leaves Him, are they still in salvation?

I honestly don't know how I can be any clearer. There is NO way to lose salvation once HE has saved us.


And again Nathan. You are putting salvation in the hands of man. Not me.

If we can "leave" salvation........salvation depends on our merit and not His merit.

 

[Nathan]

hello Nathan, dirtfarmer here

What is it about God's sovereignty that causes a believer to become an unbeliever? The only one that is espousing that man controls his salvation is you. It is not sin that makes us sinners, but a decree from God that all have sinned. We sin because we are sinners. Scripture states that even when sin was not imputed because there was law, man still died: Romans 5:13-15

Is unbelief a sin? So, if man is reverting back to unbelief, he is becoming a sinner again? In the physical life that we live on earth, when are we ever without a sin nature? We have been saved from the power of that sin nature, in that it has no more dominion over us. We have been saved from the penalty of that sin nature. Our spirit has be made alive to the Spirit of God and has been separated from the "soul", the fleshy, worldly part of us. That old man has died and our life is hid in Christ. But, we have yet to be saved from the presence of sin. This will happen when we are no longer present in this world controlled by Satan, but have been resurrected with our glorified physical body in the presence of Christ in heaven. As long as we are pilgrims here, but our citizenship is in heaven, we will ,from time to time, be overtaken by faults, but that doesn't mean that God sees us as sinners. Being in Christ means that when God looks at man, He sees either that "old Adam" made a living soul, or He sees the last Adam a life quickening spirit.

What is it that "makes" us in Christ? What and where have I stated that man has to do something in order to be saved?
My understanding is that salvation is a gift from God and that when we believe, we are "put in Christ".

2 Timothy 1:10, " But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:" What death has been abolished? it is separation from God? What gospel brought life and immortality? was it not Faith in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ?

Even in the old testament during the time of law, it was faith in God's word that brought salvation, not keeping the law. Keeping the law kept and restored fellowship, but never brought entrance into the rest of God, the promised land. Why were the Israelites "cutoff" because of the sin of unbelief. It was never because they believed and then "disbelieved". It was because of unbelief, they never believed God could and would take them to the promised land. He fed them, clothes and shoes lasted 40 years, provide water from the rock that followed. Gave the shelter from the heat by the cloud during the day and guidance by the pillar of fire and the cloud that moved.

.

So you think that the Israelites who were cut off never believed?

Did they not believe in taking a lamb and observing the Passover?

Did they not believe when they crossed the sea?

Did they not believe when they ate food from heaven?

Did they not believe when they drank from the rock?

Did they not believe when they stood at the mountain of God?

Are you saying that they never believed in those things - that they did them just because they never believed?

We are in Christ because of the work He did. We either believe it or not.

We are not saved because we believe, we simply believe He saves us.

If we are saved because we believe, then our salvation is based on something we did. If we believe that He will save us, then our salvation is based on Him.

If we no longer believe He can save us, is He obligated to save us based on something we once did?

 

[Nathan]

I honestly don't know how I can be any clearer.........YES



I honestly don't know how I can be any clearer. There is NO way to lose salvation once HE has saved us.


And again Nathan. You are putting salvation in the hands of man. Not me.

If we can "leave" salvation........salvation depends on our merit and not His merit.

If we leave Christ, is there salvation in something/someone other? That's the question you keep skirting.

Did He make us enter Him?

 

[MarkT]

Was the Holy Spirit guaranteed to any OT saint? No. It was only when Jesus promised the coming Holy Spirit who would be with us FOREVER. And that didn't happen until He was risen from the grave.

So the indwelling of the Spirit is a NT occurrence. Your verse does not apply to the NT.

Your view is in direct conflict with Jesus' promise in John 14:16 - And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever—

Was the Holy Spirit guaranteed to any OT saint? I don't know what you mean.

Everything God said in the OT was spoken by his Spirit through his prophets. Joshua was filled with the Spirit when Moses laid his hands on him. Deut. 34:9 Samuel was a prophet. The Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul. 1 Sam. 16:14

The question is, can the Spirit of God enter into a man? Can His Spirit also depart from a man? The Spirit entered into Ezekiel. Eze. 2:2 The Spirit departed from Saul.

So re. Eph. 1:13 Paul is speaking to the faithful in Christ who also believe in Christ, saying, In Christ you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit which is the guarantee of our inheritance. So those who believe are sealed in Christ. But what does this say about those who fall away?

We can say those who possess the Spirit, possess the guarantee . But those who rebel against the word of God, and spurn the counsel of the Most High, sit in darkness with none to help. Ps. 107:10-12

And Paul writes,
Hebrews 10:29
How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace?

 

[Jim Parker]

Romans 11:13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Therefore, inasmuch as I am apostle to the Gentiles, I promote my ministry, ​

sigh
Yes, Chessman, Paul was speaking TO Gentiles ABOUT Israel.
Gentiles are the people TO WHOM Paul was writing.
Israel is the subject OF WHOM he was writing.

 

[dirtfarmer]

So you think that the Israelites who were cut off never believed?

Did they not believe in taking a lamb and observing the Passover?

Did they not believe when they crossed the sea?

Did they not believe when they ate food from heaven?

Did they not believe when they drank from the rock?

Did they not believe when they stood at the mountain of God?

Are you saying that they never believed in those things - that they did them just because they never believed?

We are in Christ because of the work He did. We either believe it or not.

We are not saved because we believe, we simply believe He saves us.

If we are saved because we believe, then our salvation is based on something we did. If we believe that He will save us, then our salvation is based on Him.

If we no longer believe He can save us, is He obligated to save us based on something we once did?

hello Nathan, dirtfarmer here

Do you believe Hebrews 3:17-19
Hebrews 3:17-19, " But with whom was he grieved forty years? Was it not them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? But to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not: So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief." What was their unbelief? They, for 40 years offered sacrifice, observed feast, and kept Sabbaths Did they not observe all that you have listed, but still did not enter? Why?

Exodus 3:8, " I am come down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians, and to bring them up out of that land unto a good and large, unto a land flowing with milk and honey; unto the place of the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites."

Exodus 14:11, " And they said unto Moses, Because there were no graves in Egypt, thou has taken us away to die in the wilderness? Wherefore hast thou dealt thus with us, to carry us forth out of Egypt? This was before the crossing of the sea, does this sound like faith or unbelief?
They went 3 days into the wilderness and complained because of no water. God had promise to provide all their needs. Does this sound like faith or unbelief.
Exodus 16:3, " And the children of Israel said unto them. Would to God we had died by the hand of the LORD in the land of Egypt, when we set by the flesh pots, and when we did eat bread to the full; for ye have brought us forth into this wilderness, to kill this whole assembly with hunger." Does this sound like faith or unbelief?
They were not satisfied with the manna and complained. God sent quail for meat.
In all of these things that God did for them; the fighting their battles, providing water and food, guidance by the fire and cloud. Even the spies, only Joshua and Caleb said "Let's Go" the rest said no, there are giants in that land. All this this speaks of unbelief even though they performed the feasts and sacrifices, they were still unbelievers, just as today, there are those that believe that we keep ourselves saved.
As scripture states: " We are kept by the power of God"
Philippians 4:7 " And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and mind through Christ."
Philippians 1:6 " Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ."

If you want to believe that you can step away from God by your power, that is between you and God, but I will cling to the scriptures that it is God's power that keeps my salvation and not something that I do

dirtfarmer

 

[gr8grace3]

If we leave Christ, is there salvation in something/someone other? That's the question you keep skirting.

Did He make us enter Him?

I am not skirting the question Nathan. No. Period. There is NOT salvation in something/someone else. Many have left Christ and think salvation can be lost. But have they lost salvation? NO.

He bought us with a price,HIS price.1 Cor 6:20 .And are no longer our own. 1 Cor 6:19.

Yes, He made us enter Him. We freely choose to believe, and HE enters into us.........and seals us forever.
New American Standard Bible
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation-- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Gal 3~~
14in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

15Brethren, I speak in terms of human relations: even though it is only a man’s covenant, yet when it has been ratified, no one sets it aside or adds conditions to it.

 

[gr8grace3]

hello Nathan, dirtfarmer here

Do you believe Hebrews 3:17-19
Hebrews 3:17-19, " But with whom was he grieved forty years? Was it not them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? But to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not: So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief." What was their unbelief? They, for 40 years offered sacrifice, observed feast, and kept Sabbaths Did they not observe all that you have listed, but still did not enter? Why?

Exodus 3:8, " I am come down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians, and to bring them up out of that land unto a good and large, unto a land flowing with milk and honey; unto the place of the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites."

Exodus 14:11, " And they said unto Moses, Because there were no graves in Egypt, thou has taken us away to die in the wilderness? Wherefore hast thou dealt thus with us, to carry us forth out of Egypt? This was before the crossing of the sea, does this sound like faith or unbelief?
They went 3 days into the wilderness and complained because of no water. God had promise to provide all their needs. Does this sound like faith or unbelief.
Exodus 16:3, " And the children of Israel said unto them. Would to God we had died by the hand of the LORD in the land of Egypt, when we set by the flesh pots, and when we did eat bread to the full; for ye have brought us forth into this wilderness, to kill this whole assembly with hunger." Does this sound like faith or unbelief?
They were not satisfied with the manna and complained. God sent quail for meat.
In all of these things that God did for them; the fighting their battles, providing water and food, guidance by the fire and cloud. Even the spies, only Joshua and Caleb said "Let's Go" the rest said no, there are giants in that land. All this this speaks of unbelief even though they performed the feasts and sacrifices, they were still unbelievers, just as today, there are those that believe that we keep ourselves saved.
As scripture states: " We are kept by the power of God"
Philippians 4:7 " And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and mind through Christ."
Philippians 1:6 " Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ."

If you want to believe that you can step away from God by your power, that is between you and God, but I will cling to the scriptures that it is God's power that keeps my salvation and not something that I do

dirtfarmer

Another point. Which I know you know.

Saved out of Egypt is a picture/shadow of eternal salvation. Entering the promised land is a picture of our inheritance.

If they lost salvation.......we would see them promptly returned to Egypt By God.

 

[gr8grace3]

So you think we are saved by something we did? Salvation as a result of works?

We are saved BY His Grace. Not of ourselves.

So it seems we are back to a few days ago...............your belief has no merit, but mine does?

 

[MarkT]

I said this:
"As I just pointed out in another post, if the sealing in Him with the Holy Spirit could be unsealed, Eph 4:30 would have been the perfect place to make that point, where he mentions grieving the Holy Spirit. Yet, instead of that, Paul emphasizes eternal security by saying we were sealed for the day of redemption.

Grieving the Holy Spirit sure sounds grievous to me. So if salvation could be lost, or the seal unsealed, it would seem that grieving the Spirit would result in that. But Paul never even hints at that. In fact, he "seals" the deal in 4:30 by referencing our sealing with eternal security, which is the same point he makes in Eph 1:14.

If Eph 1:14 and 4:30 do not teach eternal security, I cannot imagine what they are teaching. And no one has offered any idea of what they are teaching, if other than eternal security."

The real question is why you've deflected to Paul rather than answering my question. Which was what Eph 1:14 and 4:30 teach, if not eternal security.

But apparently you've no answer either.

And Paul wouldn't need to expect my question. Nor would he expect anyone else's question. He was quite clear enough about eternal security.

But since there are those who reject eternal security, why haven't any of them stepped forward to explain what Paul was teaching in Eph 1:14 and 4:30?

It is obvious they have no answers to what Paul was teaching.

I believe Jesus won't lose any sheep the Father gives him. Is that what you mean by eternal security? You keep saying OSAS. Logically I can't disagree with that. But then you start talking about having once believed. When you say the man was saved, you presume too much. Those who are saved are those who believe and grow in faith. Those who grow in the knowledge of God have eternal life, "and this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent." John 17:3 Living things grow. Where there is growth, there is life.

Jesus said, I am the vine, you are the branches. When a man first believes, he springs forth as a branch, but without water the branch quickly withers. John 15:5-6 And again, when a man first believes, he leaves his house and searches for understanding and knowledge as one would search for water, and he finds none, he returns to his house and brings with him seven spirits more evil than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last state of that man becomes worse than the first. Mt. 12:43-45

So I believe in eternal security. But I also believe in the word of God. I believe our faith has to be tested, much like Abraham's faith was tested, by fire and by trial. James 1:12 Blessed is the man who endures trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life which God has promised to those who love him.

So I don't believe a man is saved the moment he believes. Actually I believe everything is predestined. 2 Thess. 2:13

 

[Jim Parker]

There is NO way to lose salvation once HE has saved us.

Saved us from what?