Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works

[reba]

Belief is NOT what counts. If it was, then salvation could be lost if one stopped believing.
Eph 2:8~~New American Standard Bible
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

The merit is not in faith. The merit is in the object/agent of faith................the Lord Jesus Christ.

Act_16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

 

[FreeGrace]

Actually, the whole purpose for never perishing is so we can live with Him forever. Not just so we can never perish. One is a focus on Him, the other is a focus on us. Where is your focus?

On Him, of course.

My view is that He gives life to those who are in Him - based on His desire for us.

My view as well.

You view is He gives life to someone who is not in Him - and it's based on something they did.

Well, your claim here is totally fallacious. That's not my view at all.

John is clear, the evidence of being a child is being in Christ.

Please cite any verse that says this.

Do you believe a child of God can be outside of Christ?

Nope. Eph 1:13,14, 4:30 and 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5 don't permit such a thing.

1 John 3
1 See what kind of love the Father has given to us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are. The reason why the world does not know us is that it did not know him.
2 Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is.
3 And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure.
4 Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness.
5 You know that he appeared to take away sins, and in him there is no sin.
6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him.
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous.
8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.
9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.
10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

OK, what is here that makes clear anything about loss of salvation?

Do you believe that a person who has one time believed in Christ, who then turns to practicing lawlessness, still is a child of God?

Yes, for 3 reasons.

1. The Bible promises that those who receive eternal life will never perish. John 10:28
2. The Bible teaches that one becomes a child of God through the spiritual new birth. And any birth, whether physical or spiritual, cannot be undone.
3. The Bible never teaches that a child of God can be changed back to a former condition.

It is for these rock solid reasons that I can answer Yes.

 

[chessman]

Um, I think you are adding words to the passage that are not there. The seed on the rock believe - period.

What words did I add?

And to merely read the parable as "The seed on the rock believe-period" is exactly my point. It ignores the rest of Jesus' illustrations whereby He explicitly says;

Matthew 13:23 But what was sown on the good soil—this is the one who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces, this one a hundred times as much, and this one sixty, and this one thirty.” ​

Not to mention that you said; "The seed on the rock believe"???
It is important to understand that "the seed" is the word about the kingdom, not the rock (men). Your statement has the seed (the word) believing something, not the man. If you misunderstand this, you misunderstand the parable.

The distinction between them and the good soil is the time frame in which they believe.

An additional distinction between the good soil and the other three 'soils' is that the good soil—this is the one who hears the word and understands it ...

I do not recall anywhere that understanding the Gospel was a requirement for salvation?

Matthew 13:14-15, 19a and with reference to them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says, “You will listen carefully and will never understand, and you will look closely and will never perceive. For the heart of this people has become dull, and with their ears they hear with difficulty, and they have shut their eyes, so that they would not see with their eyes and hear with their ears and understand with their heart and turn, and I would heal them.”
...
When anyone hears the word about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. ​

If the rock would have understood it and had the Root in himself, God would have healed him.

The rocky soil was hard, so the depth of the root was not much at all

You add soil depth and a root to Jesus' interpretation of this rock example when Jesus specifically says the rock where the seed sprang up (not down) had neither;

Matthew 13:5 And other seed fell on the rocky ground, where it did not have much soil, and it sprang up at once because it did not have any depth of soil.

Matthew 13:21 But he does not have a root in himself, but lasts only a little while, and when affliction or persecution happens because of the word, immediately he falls away.
​

Jesus says the rock "does not have a root in himself", yet you say "the depth of the root was not much at all". Only one of you is correct. And, like I said (without adding to the passage), there was one example who understood the word about the kingdom.

 

[FreeGrace]

This has been explained to you so many times that's it's a joke now that you can't comprehend the argument.

Well, the joke's on anyone who believes this empty claim. I very much comprehend the argument. And there has been NO evidence for your point of view, and plenty for eternal security.

Everything Jesus said about being eternally and forever secure is in regard to the person who BELIEVES, not the person who does not believe.

And this has been explained "so many times". But it's not a joke, because I don't think it's a joke to not believe the promise that Jesus made in John 10:28 about those who receive eternal life will never perish. How is that not eternal security? No one has explained that to me.

All the passages about losing eternal life do not negate what Jesus said about never perishing because what Jesus said is for the believer, not for those who have stopped believing.

There are NO passages about losing eternal life. Where does the Bible say anything about losing eternal life?

I don't expect you to even understand the argument, let alone agree with it.

I do understand your argument and I strongly disagree with it because it is devoid of any evidence for it.

And so you are just going to simply ignore what Jesus plainly says will happen to the forgiven person if they themselves do not forgive?

Sure do. He said they will not be forgiven. But how is that "not saved"?? It would be just a huge assumption, that's all.

And 1 John 1:9 means the same thing. The only way to restore fellowship for the believer is to confess their sins. And if they don't confess, they remain unforgiven and out of fellowship, but John said NOTHING about losing salvation. His point was all about fellowship.

Explain to us how Free Grace doctrine makes what Jesus said will happen to the forgiven person if they do not then forgive that Jesus plainly taught in Matthew 18:23-35 NASB go away.

I just did. And nothing "goes away" except the false notion that salvation can be lost.

We will do this with many scriptures and we will keep count of the passages that have to be explained away for Free Grace doctrine to be true in order to make them not mean what they so plainly say. Then teachable, humble people will see how unreasonable it is that a doctrine has to rely on so many passages of scripture being explained away for Hyper Grace doctrine to be true.

lol

I've come to the conclusion that the theology of non-eternal security is an emotional one. Those who accept that theology will use the worst case scenario that can be imagined, such as a believer rejecting Christ along the way, and being unable to accept that there is nothing that anyone can do to undo their salvation.

If any such scenario is unacceptable to them, it MUST BE just as unacceptable to God Himself. This is basically elevating one's personal dislikes to the level of God. We have no right to do that.

And such a thought demonstrates just how much God's grace is not understood. Or accepted by them.

So, basically, all their defense is based on emotions. No Scripture, no facts, no evidence. Just a lot of assumptions, presumptions.

 

[WIP]

As I have been following the discussions upon discussions upon discussion between OSAS and OSNAS there has been something that came to me. Those from the OSAS position have indicated that loss of salvation is not possible but the Scripture references brought up to counter that view are speaking about loss or walking away from fellowship and not salvation. As I was thinking about this a thought occurred to me. What would eternal life look like without fellowship with God? It sounds to me like a living hell.

 

[FreeGrace]

Of course. Just the other day, I came upon one of those vendors giving away samples of food in a grocery store (blue cheese something). He offered me a sample. I turned away for his offer. Some people turn away from God's offer too.

No. What Scripture are you comparing this to?

No. What Scripture are you comparing this to?

No.
Now, back to the 1 Peter passage:

If you have a marriage and your marriage fades/perishes, would that marriage be unfading and imperishable?

If you have an inheritance and your inheritance fades/perishes, would that inheritance be unfading and imperishable?

I love your questions! Right to the point!!

 

[FreeGrace]

Yes, it is the one who believes that has eternal life. Not the person who doesn't believe. It's right there in the passage. It's amazing that Hyper-grace doctrine can't see Jesus' plain words.

I see His words far more plain that others seem to do.

For example, He promises that those He gives eternal life will never perish in John 10:28. How can that be anything other than eternal security. The ONLY BASIS for never perishing is to receive eternal life. Jesus made no comment "if they continue to believe", as your position loves to add.

This is where Hyper-grace doctrine has to come in and explain for us that Jesus 'didn't really' mean what he said.

Jesus always means what He says.

But, can you say this in light of His promise in John 10:28?

What he 'really' means is you do NOT have to believe Him who sent Him to have eternal life. Watch.

Please explain what He "really" means in John 10:28. Thanks.

 

[FreeGrace]

Eternal security is real, but only in Christ.

And, the Bible does not teach that one who has been sealed in Him with the Spirit can be unsealed (or any other way to communicate the notion of loss of salvation) for any reason.

So yes, eternal security is REAL for everyone who has ever received the gift of eternal life. They will never perish, because Jesus promised that very thing. John 10:28

There can be no security for those outside of Him.

No one argues this. It would be silly to do that.

 

[FreeGrace]

Did you ever notice that BELIEVE is always in the present tense?

No, ma'am, it isn't always. The aorist tense is used often.

Just google BELIEVE. There are many, many verses.
Here are a few:

John 3:16
John 6:35
Mark 5:36
Hebrews 11:6
Psalm 23:4-6
Romans 10:10
Romans 15:13
Mark 9:24
Psalm 78:32-33
Genesis 15:5-6
John 14:1
Acts 16:31
Luke 8:50

Why would anyone assume the English present tense is the same for the Greek? Acts 16:31 is in the aorist tense. Along with Rom 10:10.

We don't learn of the actual (real) tense that was used in the original language UNLESS we consult a Greek lexicon, not google.

 

[FreeGrace]

Why do you keep asking me this? I don't believe it is possible to lose salvation..............in any scenario that you come up with.

I have concluded from all the posts of those who think that salvation can be lost that their view is based entirely on emotions.

And since they generally come up with the "worst case scenario" of a believer rejecting Christ, something that is totally unacceptable to them, it MUST BE just as unacceptable to God Himself.

I believe that is what drives their energy. Emotions.

 

[FreeGrace]

wondering said: ↑
Did you ever notice that BELIEVE is always in the present tense?
Just google BELIEVE. There are many, many verses.
Here are a few:

You may want to double check this.

But if the only "source" of information used is google, the truth will never come to light.

The mistake is to assume the present tense in our English language is what was used by the original writers, which, of course, is totally false. And a number of citations noted used 'believe' in the aorist tense, which refutes her conclusions.

 

[FreeGrace]

The explanation desired is of how the one who no longer believes still has life.

There are no verses that SAY that one who no longer believes no longer has life.

In fact, we have a guarantee from Jesus. Those who receive eternal life will never perish. John 10:28. That means those who receive eternal life STILL HAVE LIFE. And Jesus added no other conditions than simply receiving the gift.

 

[FreeGrace]

Why should I double check it????

I gave you at least ten verses that show how BELIEVE is in the present tense.

And I pointed out several that, in the original language, were in the aorist tense, which refutes your claim.

Could you please post some verses that show that if I believed AT SOME POINT IN TIME, AND THEN LOST that belief,
I am STILL saved.

How about a very clear promise from Jesus Himself? Is that good enough?
John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Jesus based the promise of "never perishing" upon receiving the gift of eternal life. Nothing else.

If Jesus keeps His promises, then everyone who has ever believed will not perish, because that's exactly what Jesus promised.

 

[FreeGrace]

What's wrong with Acts 16:31?

It is in the aorist tense, not present tense, as being assumed wrongly.

The Jailer Converted
31 They said, Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

BTW, You picked ONE verse.
There are at least 60 or 70 with the present tense BELIEVE.

No, it is only an assumption, and a false one at that, that your claim is true. Google doesn't examine the original language.

But, as I recall, you've shown a preference for the English translations, rather than what the original Greek says.

 

[FreeGrace]

How could we not do what God asks us to do after believing?

Another question:
How could any child ever be disobedient to his/her parent's requests or commands?

 

[FreeGrace]

OH NO!!!

The dreaded aorist tense!
2

Aha!! Afraid of the truth. But, there is no reason to fear the truth. Jesus said the truth will set you free. John 8:32

Those who dislike the aorist tense need to be set free from such negative emotions.

 

[FreeGrace]

So you think we are saved by something we did?

Yes, by means of faith. We believed in Him.

Salvation as a result of works?

No, it's by grace THROUGH FAITH. Eph 2:8

Oh, and "not by works". v.9

 

[FreeGrace]

Quite the opposite. My salvation is in Christ. Where is your salvation?

I believe He will always save me.

This is correct as far as it goes. But, if salvation can be lost, salvation becomes dependent upon whom?

 

[FreeGrace]

Was the Holy Spirit guaranteed to any OT saint? I don't know what you mean.

The Holy Spirit was guaranteed only to NT believers. By Jesus in John 14:16. But the answer to my question was no, the Holy Spirit was not guaranteed to every OT believer. Only a few. For special functions.

The question is, can the Spirit of God enter into a man?

Yes, that's the promised indwelling Holy Spirit.

Can His Spirit also depart from a man?

Only in the OT. Jesus promised that the Holy Spirit would come and be with us forever. John 14:16

The Spirit entered into Ezekiel. Eze. 2:2 The Spirit departed from Saul.

OT believer.

So re. Eph. 1:13 Paul is speaking to the faithful in Christ who also believe in Christ, saying, In Christ you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit which is the guarantee of our inheritance. So those who believe are sealed in Christ. But what does this say about those who fall away?

Paul didn't even address any "if" condition. The point remains, those sealed ARE sealed for the day of redemption. Do you know when that is? Did Paul add any conditions for the day of redemption.

 

[FreeGrace]

I believe Jesus won't lose any sheep the Father gives him. Is that what you mean by eternal security?

Yes. Once saved means always saved.

You keep saying OSAS.

Actually, I don't keep saying that. I prefer eternal security.

Logically I can't disagree with that. But then you start talking about having once believed. When you say the man was saved, you presume too much.

Why would one presume that I'm presuming anything? The Bible says that one is saved when one believes in Christ.

The Bible never speaks of losing one's salvation. That is just assumption or presumption.

Those who are saved are those who believe and grow in faith.

Where does the Bible say one must believe "and grow in faith"??? Please provide Scripture.

Those who grow in the knowledge of God have eternal life

No, the Bible teaches repeatedly that one HAS eternal life by believing in Jeus Christ.
John 3:15,16, 36, 5:24, 6:40, 47, 11:25-26.

"and this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent."

From all the other verses that say one must believe in order to have eternal life, it is obvious that "know tee" in this verse refers to believing in Jesus Christ. This one verse cannot refute or disagree with any other verse.

So I believe in eternal security.

Not if you also believe that one can lose salvation.