Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works

[GodsGrace]

Salvation is a one time event and is an action that the Lord Jesus Christ makes the MOMENT we believe(aorist tense)......Acts 16:31.

If this were not true, not a ONE of us could possibly do what God asks of us after salvation................because we need His Spirit to live the Christian way of life. If we didn't have the sealing of the Spirit and all His grace gifts......none of us could succeed in His plan.

There is no opposition to continual belief. There is opposition to ," I must continue to believe or my gift of eternal life will be revoked." Romans 11:29

Acts 16:31 and the aorist tense and meaning of "believe" in said verse...:



"Believe πίστευσον pisteuson 4100 to believe, entrust from pistis

πιστευσον verb - aorist active middle - second person singular
pisteuo pist-yoo'-o: to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication, to entrust (especially one's spiritual well-being to Christ)

.....If you are not entrusting your spirit to Jesus, are you still saved?....


4100 pisteúō
(from 4102 /pístis, "faith," derived from 3982 /peíthō, "persuade, be persuaded") – believe (affirm, have confidence); used of persuading oneself (= human believing) and with the sacred significance of being persuaded by the Lord (= faith-believing). Only the context indicates whether 4100 /pisteúō ("believe") is self-serving (without sacred meaning), or the believing that leads to/proceeds from God's inbirthing of faith.

pistis: faith, faithfulness

Original Word: πίστις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: pistis
Phonetic Spelling: (pis'-tis)
Short Definition: faith, belief, trust
Definition: faith, belief, trust, confidence; fidelity, faithfulness.
HELPS Word-studies
4102 pístis (from 3982/peithô, "persuade, be persuaded") – properly, persuasion (be persuaded, come to trust); faith.

Faith (4102/pistis) is always a gift from God, and never something that can be produced by people. In short, 4102/pistis ("faith") for the believer is "God's divine persuasion" – and therefore distinct from human belief (confidence), yet involving it. The Lord continuously births faith in the yielded believer so they can know what He prefers, i.e. the persuasion of His will (1 Jn 5:4).

[4102 (pistis) in secular antiquity referred to a guarantee (warranty). In Scripture, faith is God's warranty, certifying that the revelation He inbirthed will come to pass (His way).

Faith (4102/pistis) is also used collectively – of all the times God has revealed (given the persuasion of) His will, which includes the full revelation of Scripture (Jude 3). Indeed, God the Lord guarantees that all of this revelation will come to pass! Compare Mt 5:18 with 2 Tim 3:16.]

1. The root of 4102/pistis ("faith") is 3982/peithô ("to persuade, be persuaded") which supplies the core-meaning of faith ("divine persuasion"). It is God's warranty that guarantees the fulfillment of the revelation He births within the receptive believer (cf. 1 Jn 5:4 with Heb 11:1).

Please note that God can only work when the believer is receptive --- to say nothing of a non-believer.
Also, belief (and faith) is a gift from God but involves also the person.


Also, please note the aorist tense used here.
Are you aware of HOW MANY aorist tenses there are?
I do wish this term would stop being thrown about.

Could you show me where in Acts 16:31 it is meant that a person believes ONE TIME IN THE PAST and it ENDURES FOREVER INTO THE FUTURE.

This would be interesting.

 

[GodsGrace]

No.

2 Peter 2:20 For if, after they have escaped from the defilements of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and they are again entangled in these things and succumb to them, the last state has become worse for them than the first. ​

I asked about verses where Jesus describes "one who no longer believes"?

Last time I was in English class, having "knowledge" of the Lord Jesus is not "believing" in Him.

BTW, Peter is not Jesus


Okay. I'll tell you about "false teachers".

2 Peter 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, as there will be false teachers among you also, who will bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, thus bringing on themselves swift destruction.​

I does to me.

Chessman,

You can't have it both ways...
When it suits some, knowledge means a whole lot.
Like Joseph did not KNOW Mary till after Jesus was born.

When it suits some, knowledge means nothing.
Like in 2 Peter 2:20-22
2 Peter 2:20 by the KNOWLEDGE of the Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ

Does one escape the defilement of the world because they have some kind of book knowledge, or having just heard of someone,
or is some deeper knowledge necessary?

If they are AGAIN entangled, doesn't it mean the were entangled, left, and then were AGAIN entangled again?

Here we go:

2 Peter 2:20 ►

NASB Lexicon
NASB © Greek Transliteration Strong's Definition Origin
For if, εἰ ei 1487 sometimes used with a command or as an indirect question, etc.) a prim. particle; if, whether (a cond. part. introducing circumstances nec. for a given proposition to be true
after they have escaped ἀποφυγόντες apophugontes 668 to flee from from apo and pheugó
the defilements μιάσματα miasmata 3393 a stain, defilement from miainó
of the world κόσμου kosmou 2889 order, the world a prim. word
by the knowledge ἐπιγνώσει epignōsei 1922 recognition, knowledge from epiginóskó


1922. epignósis ►
Strong's Concordance
epignósis: recognition, knowledge
Original Word: ἐπίγνωσις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: epignósis
Phonetic Spelling: (ep-ig'-no-sis)
Short Definition: knowledge, discernment, recognition
Definition: knowledge of a particular point (directed towards a particular object); perception, discernment, recognition, intuition.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 1922 epígnōsis (from 1909 /epí, "on, fitting" which intensifies 1108 /gnṓsis, "knowledge gained through first-hand relationship") – properly, "contact-knowledge" that is appropriate ("apt, fitting") to first-hand, experiential knowing. This is defined by the individual context. See 1921 (epignōskō).

Now I'd have to also list 1909 and 1108 and 1921.
We are NOT theologists here. This should not be necessary.
The English should be sufficient for our discussions.

THIS KNOWLEDGE in 2 Peter 2:20, 1922, actually INTENSIFIES 1108, "knowledge gained through first-hand relationships".

So you CANNOT say that it is not an intimate, relationship knowledge of Christ.

THIS IS CLEARLY UNDERSTOOD FROM ONLY THE ENGLISH.

The problem is that it does not suit your incorrect understanding of these verses.

I did say this was a Religion Class, and sometimes an English Class, now we also have to have a Greek Class, anything not to simply and properly understand the N.T.

Oh, and BTW, we are not discussing false teachers here. I even made a point of this.

And thanks for advising me that Peter is not Jesus. I don't even know what you mean by this...

(I sure hope you don't mean that his writings might not be correct!)

 

[GodsGrace]

An explanation for what?

John 3:36 The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who disobeys the Son will not see life—but the wrath of God remains on him.​

1 + 1 = 2
1 (who believes in the Son) plus
1 (who disobeys the Son)
= 2 one's

1 has eternal life but 1 does not. Simple.
What needs an explanation?

​

BTW,

Getting beyond the math,

Would you say that the one who abandons God
is the one disobeying the Son?

Would you say that the one disobeying the Son is lost since Jesus said that those WHO OBEY HM are His FRIENDS. Which, means that those who DON'T obey Him are NOT His friends.

John 8:31
John 14:15
John 14:21
John 14:24
John 15:14

 

[chessman]

sigh
Yes, Chessman, Paul was speaking TO Gentiles ABOUT Israel.

Romans 11:24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree? ​

When Paul spoke of being grafted into a cultivated olive tree, he was speaking about Gentiles.

 

[chessman]

Like Joseph did not KNOW Mary till after Jesus was born.

The word Peter used in 2 Peter 2:20
is not the same word Matthew used in Matt 1:25.

Matthew 1:25 but knew her not until she had given birth to a son. And he called his name Jesus. ​

So you CANNOT say that it is not an intimate, relationship knowledge of Christ.

Sure I can, in the 2 Peter 2 verse. If Peter would have used 1097 (ginosko; I am taking in knowledge) versus 1922 (epignósis; knowledge), then your point would be valid. There is a substantial difference between knowing Jesus and taking Jesus into your heart. The High Priests and Pilate epi-knew Jesus but did not take Him in.

1097 /ginṓskō ("experientially know") is used for example in Lk 1:34, "And Mary [a virgin] said to the angel, 'How will this be since I do not know (1097 /ginṓskō = sexual intimacy) a man?'"

Does one escape the defilement of the world because they have some kind of book knowledge, or having just heard of someone, or is some deeper knowledge necessary?

A deeper knowledge is necessary. That's my point!

If they are AGAIN entangled, doesn't it mean the were entangled, left, and then were AGAIN entangled again?

If they had escaped entanglement by defilement (immorality of the world) then became entangled again in defilement, then, yes it means that were temporarily not entangled. So???

Even atheists can temporarily lead moral lives (i.e. escape the entanglement of the defilement of the world). Just as Christians can at times be entangled in immorality.

Neither condition (entangled or de-tangled) means they believed IN Jesus for salvation then stopped believing in Him, which was what we were supposed to be discussing.

The English should be sufficient for our discussions.

It is. I asked for a verse(s) where Jesus describes "one who no longer believes"?

You are the one who brought up 2 Peter 2:20 and it's Greek word definitions. None of which means "no longer believes". In Greek or English.

I sure hope you don't mean that his writings might not be correct!

No, that's not what I meant, nor what I said.

 

[GodsGrace]

The word Peter used in 2 Peter 2:20
is not the same word Matthew used in Matt 1:25.

Matthew 1:25 but knew her not until she had given birth to a son. And he called his name Jesus. ​

Sure I can, in the 2 Peter 2 verse. If Peter would have used 1097 (ginosko; I am taking in knowledge) versus 1922 (epignósis; knowledge), then your point would be valid. There is a substantial difference between knowing Jesus and taking Jesus into your heart. The High Priests and Pilate epi-knew Jesus but did not take Him in.

1097 /ginṓskō ("experientially know") is used for example in Lk 1:34, "And Mary [a virgin] said to the angel, 'How will this be since I do not know (1097 /ginṓskō = sexual intimacy) a man?'"


A deeper knowledge is necessary. That's my point!


If they had escaped entanglement by defilement (immorality of the world) then became entangled again in defilement, then, yes it means that were temporarily not entangled. So???

Even atheists can temporarily lead moral lives (i.e. escape the entanglement of the defilement of the world). Just as Christians can at times be entangled in immorality.

Neither condition (entangled or de-tangled) means they believed IN Jesus for salvation then stopped believing in Him, which was what we were supposed to be discussing.


It is. I asked for a verse(s) where Jesus describes "one who no longer believes"?

You are the one who brought up 2 Peter 2:20 and it's Greek word definitions. None of which means "no longer believes". In Greek or English.


No, that's not what I meant, nor what I said.

I know not why you speak of Mary.

I brought it up just to make a point.

So, 1097 has not much to do with what I wrote. How come you didn't answer to 1922, 1909 and 1108. Those are the greek words I was speaking about referring to 2 Peter 2:20.
Would you like to try again?

But 1922 does. It comes from a word that means a DEEP PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP, from word 1108.

And you don't think 2 Peter 2:20-22 is speaking about a person who was LOST, SAVED, then LOST???


Do you have a manual that teaches you how to twist and turn scripture to make it mean what YOU want it to mean?

I agree that we are saved by grace through faith.

What comes next in your opinion?
What does Justification mean?
What does Sanctification mean?

Do YOU have ANYTHING to do to be kept in the Kingdom of God or is having believed in Jesus ONCE sufficient?

 

[chessman]

Jesus said;

Luke 8:13 (ESV)
And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away.

Yes, Jesus said seed sown ON the rock believe something they did not understand for a while versus believe IN the Jesus.

Do you believe that understanding who Jesus Christ is (Messiah, God incarnate, raised from the dead in accordance with Scripture) saves? Or does believing in a Jesus who is not the Messiah raised from the dead also save?

Matthew 13:20-21, 23 As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy, yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away.
As for what was sown on good soil, this is the one who hears the word and understands it. He indeed bears fruit and yields, in one case a hundredfold, in another sixty, and in another thirty.”​

Do you believe what Jesus said is true?

Yep! There is one soil type that understands the word about the kingdom of God. And it's not the rock that has no root in it.

 

[chessman]

And you don't think 2 Peter 2:20-22 is speaking about a person who was LOST, SAVED, then LOST???

That's correct, else the verse would say the person was LOST, SAVED, then LOST.

Do you have a manual that teaches you how to twist and turn scripture to make it mean what YOU want it to mean?

No, but I can see examples of twisting and turning Scripture here.

 

[GodsGrace]

That's correct, else the verse would say the person was LOST, SAVED, then LOST.


No, but I can see examples of twisting and turning Scripture here.

Sure Chessman.
You can see examples of twisting and turning of scripture every time you read one.

So you trust the early Christians at all?
Like, for instance Ignatius of Antioch. He knew and studied under John the Apostle.
Or do you trust these modern day hyper-grace people more?
Why?
Do you think they know more?
Do they suit your belief system more?
You like cheap grace, do you?

Jesus gave His life for YOU
but YOU don't have to do anything for HIM,
but believe.

Do you REALLY know what BELIEVE means?
I doubt it.
Or you wouldn't make the comments you do.
As you know, BELIEVE meant something very specific for the writers of the N.T.


Au Revoir

 

[Nathan]

hello Nathan, dirtfarmer here

Do you believe Hebrews 3:17-19
Hebrews 3:17-19, " But with whom was he grieved forty years? Was it not them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? But to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not: So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief." What was their unbelief? They, for 40 years offered sacrifice, observed feast, and kept Sabbaths Did they not observe all that you have listed, but still did not enter? Why?

Exodus 3:8, " I am come down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians, and to bring them up out of that land unto a good and large, unto a land flowing with milk and honey; unto the place of the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites."

Exodus 14:11, " And they said unto Moses, Because there were no graves in Egypt, thou has taken us away to die in the wilderness? Wherefore hast thou dealt thus with us, to carry us forth out of Egypt? This was before the crossing of the sea, does this sound like faith or unbelief?
They went 3 days into the wilderness and complained because of no water. God had promise to provide all their needs. Does this sound like faith or unbelief.
Exodus 16:3, " And the children of Israel said unto them. Would to God we had died by the hand of the LORD in the land of Egypt, when we set by the flesh pots, and when we did eat bread to the full; for ye have brought us forth into this wilderness, to kill this whole assembly with hunger." Does this sound like faith or unbelief?
They were not satisfied with the manna and complained. God sent quail for meat.
In all of these things that God did for them; the fighting their battles, providing water and food, guidance by the fire and cloud. Even the spies, only Joshua and Caleb said "Let's Go" the rest said no, there are giants in that land. All this this speaks of unbelief even though they performed the feasts and sacrifices, they were still unbelievers, just as today, there are those that believe that we keep ourselves saved.
As scripture states: " We are kept by the power of God"
Philippians 4:7 " And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and mind through Christ."
Philippians 1:6 " Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ."

If you want to believe that you can step away from God by your power, that is between you and God, but I will cling to the scriptures that it is God's power that keeps my salvation and not something that I do

dirtfarmer

dirtfarmer,

I do believe that you honestly may be passing over the whole picture. I did for a long time because it was what I was taught. When I started studying and looking at what I was taught with a critical eye, then I was able to see the truth of God's account.

They did believe, and if they did not then they would not have done the things they did. People do not do things unless they believe in them. It may sound very simplistic, but you type on a keyboard and click "Post Reply" believing that I will read what you wrote.

What you see written and recorded for our learning, from the book of Exodus, is the account of a people that kept wavering in their faith. We cannot say they never had faith, because we know that they did believe - you cannot believe in something that you have not been given the opportunity to believe in.

Exo 4:27-31
The LORD said to Aaron, “Go into the wilderness to meet Moses.” So he went and met him at the mountain of God and kissed him. And Moses told Aaron all the words of the LORD with which he had sent him to speak, and all the signs that he had commanded him to do. Then Moses and Aaron went and gathered together all the elders of the people of Israel. Aaron spoke all the words that the LORD had spoken to Moses and did the signs in the sight of the people. And the people believed; and when they heard that the LORD had visited the people of Israel and that he had seen their affliction, they bowed their heads and worshiped.

We see from this one passage that before the actual exodus took place, the people believed, and they even worshiped. However, we also know they believed from the following passage.

Exo 14:30-31
Thus the LORD saved Israel that day from the hand of the Egyptians, and Israel saw the Egyptians dead on the seashore. Israel saw the great power that the LORD used against the Egyptians, so the people feared the LORD, and they believed in the LORD and in his servant Moses.

There is absolutely no mistaking the fact that Israel believed in the LORD. When we read that they 'did not believe', and they were destroyed for it, was when the final test came as they reached the promise land. God called them to be His people, to walk with Him, to trust in Him - and they kept turning away. They would believe for a little while, then turn away, believe again, and turn away again.

The final rebellion of the people is when they denied the power of God to wipe out the enemy before them in the promise land. The constant turning back and forth had hardened their hearts, much in the same way Pharaoh's heart was hardened toward God.

Does this say that God was not powerful enough to bring them into the land? Does it say that they they could not 'step away' from His power? Does it say that they took salvation away from God?

No, it tells us that they were not able to enter the promise land because of unbelief. It tells us that God had salvation, and had been their salvation, and that they had believed - but that they made the final choice to turn away from Him. He was very long suffering with them, all those years, just like He is with us. But there comes a time when a person can only turn away from God so many times before He gives them over to their selves.

Heb 3:12-15
Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.
As it is said,
“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”

We know that it is prophesied that in our day a rebellion will take place from within the church. This passage should stay in the forefront of our minds, as a constant reminder to not turn from Him and harden our hearts, and not think that something we did at one point in time is what guarantee's us our inheritance.

 

[gr8grace3]

Acts 16:31 and the aorist tense and meaning of "believe" in said verse...:



"Believe πίστευσον pisteuson 4100 to believe, entrust from pistis

πιστευσον verb - aorist active middle - second person singular
pisteuo pist-yoo'-o: to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication, to entrust (especially one's spiritual well-being to Christ)

.....If you are not entrusting your spirit to Jesus, are you still saved?....


4100 pisteúō
(from 4102 /pístis, "faith," derived from 3982 /peíthō, "persuade, be persuaded") – believe (affirm, have confidence); used of persuading oneself (= human believing) and with the sacred significance of being persuaded by the Lord (= faith-believing). Only the context indicates whether 4100 /pisteúō ("believe") is self-serving (without sacred meaning), or the believing that leads to/proceeds from God's inbirthing of faith.

pistis: faith, faithfulness

Original Word: πίστις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: pistis
Phonetic Spelling: (pis'-tis)
Short Definition: faith, belief, trust
Definition: faith, belief, trust, confidence; fidelity, faithfulness.
HELPS Word-studies
4102 pístis (from 3982/peithô, "persuade, be persuaded") – properly, persuasion (be persuaded, come to trust); faith.

Faith (4102/pistis) is always a gift from God, and never something that can be produced by people. In short, 4102/pistis ("faith") for the believer is "God's divine persuasion" – and therefore distinct from human belief (confidence), yet involving it. The Lord continuously births faith in the yielded believer so they can know what He prefers, i.e. the persuasion of His will (1 Jn 5:4).

[4102 (pistis) in secular antiquity referred to a guarantee (warranty). In Scripture, faith is God's warranty, certifying that the revelation He inbirthed will come to pass (His way).

Faith (4102/pistis) is also used collectively – of all the times God has revealed (given the persuasion of) His will, which includes the full revelation of Scripture (Jude 3). Indeed, God the Lord guarantees that all of this revelation will come to pass! Compare Mt 5:18 with 2 Tim 3:16.]

1. The root of 4102/pistis ("faith") is 3982/peithô ("to persuade, be persuaded") which supplies the core-meaning of faith ("divine persuasion"). It is God's warranty that guarantees the fulfillment of the revelation He births within the receptive believer (cf. 1 Jn 5:4 with Heb 11:1).

Please note that God can only work when the believer is receptive --- to say nothing of a non-believer.
Also, belief (and faith) is a gift from God but involves also the person.


Also, please note the aorist tense used here.
Are you aware of HOW MANY aorist tenses there are?
I do wish this term would stop being thrown about.

Could you show me where in Acts 16:31 it is meant that a person believes ONE TIME IN THE PAST and it ENDURES FOREVER INTO THE FUTURE.

This would be interesting.

So your list was wrong. And believe is not always in the present tense.

 

[GodsGrace]

So your list was wrong. And believe is not always in the present tense.

Wow, you mean I did all that work just to prove myself wrong???

And how come you haven't explained to me how believe IS used in Acts 16:31?
Perhaps because you cannot since it is not biblical --- the whole concept, I mean.


Arrivederci

 

[Nathan]

I am not skirting the question Nathan. No. Period. There is NOT salvation in something/someone else. Many have left Christ and think salvation can be lost. But have they lost salvation? NO.

He bought us with a price,HIS price.1 Cor 6:20 .And are no longer our own. 1 Cor 6:19.

Yes, He made us enter Him. We freely choose to believe, and HE enters into us.........and seals us forever.
New American Standard Bible
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation-- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Gal 3~~
14in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

15Brethren, I speak in terms of human relations: even though it is only a man’s covenant, yet when it has been ratified, no one sets it aside or adds conditions to it.

If salvation is only in Christ, they how can you possibly say that to leave Him is not to leave salvation?

Jer 17:12-13
A glorious throne set on high from the beginning
is the place of our sanctuary.
O LORD, the hope of Israel,
all who forsake you shall be put to shame;
those who turn away from you shall be written in the earth,
for they have forsaken the LORD, the fountain of living water.

Mat 24:9-14
“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name’s sake. And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

Mat 24:45-51
“Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom his master has set over his household, to give them their food at the proper time? Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes. Truly, I say to you, he will set him over all his possessions. But if that wicked servant says to himself, ‘My master is delayed,’ and begins to beat his fellow servants and eats and drinks with drunkards, the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know and will cut him in pieces and put him with the hypocrites. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

I hope that when He comes He will find all of us faithful to His words. I also hope the one who thinks that what they did will somehow save them in the end, when He comes again, will turn away from their self proclaimed salvation apart from being in Christ - so they will not be put into the same place that the hypocrites are placed.

 

[Nathan]

We are saved BY His Grace. Not of ourselves.

So it seems we are back to a few days ago...............your belief has no merit, but mine does?

My belief is not in what I did, but in who He is. You profess that your belief is what counts, so that even if you left Christ you would still retain salvation.

So yes, my faith is not the same as yours because I know that if I were to turn from Christ then I turn from salvation - my faith does not retain the same merit as yours.

However, if you were to say that your faith also is only as good as your being in Christ - and that if you turned from Him, then you leave the merit with Him also - then we would have the same merit in our beliefs.

Your belief is in what you did, so that even if you leave Him you still retain it. How can you not see that it means you retain the merit in yourself?

 

[Nathan]

Yes, Jesus said seed sown ON the rock believe something they did not understand for a while versus believe IN the Jesus.

Do you believe that understanding who Jesus Christ is (Messiah, God incarnate, raised from the dead in accordance with Scripture) saves? Or does believing in a Jesus who is not the Messiah raised from the dead also save?

Matthew 13:20-21, 23 As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy, yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away.
As for what was sown on good soil, this is the one who hears the word and understands it. He indeed bears fruit and yields, in one case a hundredfold, in another sixty, and in another thirty.”​

Yep! There is one soil type that understands the word about the kingdom of God. And it's not the rock that has no root in it.

Um, I think you are adding words to the passage that are not there. The seed on the rock believe - period. The distinction between them and the good soil is the time frame in which they believe.

I do not recall anywhere that understanding the Gospel was a requirement for salvation? I can not therefore answer your questions because both of them are false.

The seed is the word of God. If the word of God comes alive in someone are you going to say it was never alive? The rocky soil was hard, so the depth of the root was not much at all - which means that in times of testing it was not able to endure the heat.

Heb 3:7-15
Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says,
“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion,
on the day of testing in the wilderness,
where your fathers put me to the test
and saw my works for forty years.
Therefore I was provoked with that generation,
and said, ‘They always go astray in their heart;
they have not known my ways.’
As I swore in my wrath,
‘They shall not enter my rest.’”

Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.
As it is said,
“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”

I can simply only echo the words above. A hard heart will not allow the truth of God's word to go deep into their soul, and during times of trials we need that word deep in us. We should not think that we will have a share in Christ because there once was a plant that grew in us - but since has died. That is salvation based on something you did or know, not salvation based on who He is.

 

[GodsGrace]

Um, I think you are adding words to the passage that are not there. The seed on the rock believe - period. The distinction between them and the good soil is the time frame in which they believe.

I do not recall anywhere that understanding the Gospel was a requirement for salvation? I can not therefore answer your questions because both of them are false.

The seed is the word of God. If the word of God comes alive in someone are you going to say it was never alive? The rocky soil was hard, so the depth of the root was not much at all - which means that in times of testing it was not able to endure the heat.

Heb 3:7-15
Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says,
“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion,
on the day of testing in the wilderness,
where your fathers put me to the test
and saw my works for forty years.
Therefore I was provoked with that generation,
and said, ‘They always go astray in their heart;
they have not known my ways.’
As I swore in my wrath,
‘They shall not enter my rest.’”

Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.
As it is said,
“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”

I can simply only echo the words above. A hard heart will not allow the truth of God's word to go deep into their soul, and during times of trials we need that word deep in us. We should not think that we will have a share in Christ because there once was a plant that grew in us - but since has died. That is salvation based on something you did or know, not salvation based on who He is.

Nathan,

I'd like to confirm your second paragraph which I highlighted.

I know many persons who never heard the gospel message, never read a bible, but have a love for Christ and live for Him, and some much better than I, I might add.

Some like to believe they are "free" in Christ. They like to believe they are "lilberated" from the Law and all rules and regulations because now it is Jesus doing everything and not us.

Then they proceed to make up rules and regulations as to what is necessary to be saved; exactly HOW to stay saved.

Many times I thank God that they will not be the judge of who is saved and who isn't.
They end up being much more legalistic (like the pharisees) than anyone who believes that good works are a requirement.

My two cents.

 

[Nathan]

Nathan,

I'd like to confirm your second paragraph which I highlighted.

I know many persons who never heard the gospel message, never read a bible, but have a love for Christ and live for Him, and some much better than I, I might add.

Some like to believe they are "free" in Christ. They like to believe they are "lilberated" from the Law and all rules and regulations because now it is Jesus doing everything and not us.

Then they proceed to make up rules and regulations as to what is necessary to be saved; exactly HOW to stay saved.

Many times I thank God that they will not be the judge of who is saved and who isn't.
They end up being much more legalistic (like the pharisees) than anyone who believes that good works are a requirement.

My two cents.

Your right. If a child can come to Christ and be saved, then anyone can without understanding it.

You touch on an interesting point. The Pharisee's #1 "guarantee" for themselves was that they were children of Abraham. They knew that God promised Abraham the blessings, and so they thought that if all else fails - no one could ever take away the 'family' they were born into.

We know that hairy ole John stomped out that notion for them;

Mat 3:7-10
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bear fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father,’ for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham. Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees. Every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

People are the same way today. They think that because they did something, because they were 'spiritually born' into a family, then that means they are locked in.

Little do they realize that God can do the very thing that John says, and raise up children for Himself from the very stones they see laying on the ground.

A hard heart is what keeps the truth of God's word from going deep into a mans soul. We need that root deep in us. When that root does grow deep, then we can 'understand' the truth. All one needs for the life to begin is simple belief that it will.

 

[gr8grace3]

My belief is not in what I did, but in who He is. You profess that your belief is what counts, so that even if you left Christ you would still retain salvation.

Belief is NOT what counts. If it was, then salvation could be lost if one stopped believing.
Eph 2:8~~New American Standard Bible
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

The merit is not in faith. The merit is in the object/agent of faith................the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Mike]

This is another reminder to cease with the accusations of twisting scripture or questions/comments that imply someone doesn't believe Jesus. Arguments should be made starting with the basic premise that everyone is honestly interpreting scripture. I would hope we'd all believe none of us would intentionally distort or deny God's Word.

 

[FreeGrace]

In that passage you quote one verse of, in John 10, Jesus prefaced His statement of eternal life with the fact that His sheep follow Him.

Yes, He did. Can it be shown (proven) that v.27 is the condtion for never perishing? No, it cannot. v.28 is a fact. Those Jesus gives eternal life will never perish. That's NOT conditioned on following Him, even though the Bible and I strongly urge all believers to follow Him faithfully. But that's NOT for never perishing.

Do you believe His sheep follow Him, or do you believe they don't?

Some do, and some don't. Your point?