Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works

[GodsGrace]

As I have been following the discussions upon discussions upon discussion between OSAS and OSNAS there has been something that came to me. Those from the OSAS position have indicated that loss of salvation is not possible but the Scripture references brought up to counter that view are speaking about loss or walking away from fellowship and not salvation. As I was thinking about this a thought occurred to me. What would eternal life look like without fellowship with God? It sounds to me like a living hell.

AMEN!!

Felllowship is everything. I never even answer to this anymore.
If I'm married, and have no fellowship with my husband, I may still be his wife, but what good is it???

Anyway, Jesus was not concerned with loss of fellowship.
He was concerned with keeping us off the wide path and gate that did not lead to heaven.

I mean, did Jesus die on the cross for fellowship?

Great post WIP.
Short and to the point.
(something I'll learn, eventually!)

 

[GodsGrace]

Aha!! Afraid of the truth. But, there is no reason to fear the truth. Jesus said the truth will set you free. John 8:32

Those who dislike the aorist tense need to be set free from such negative emotions.

It's not that I'm afraid of it FG

It's that I know someone who knows Koine Greek and teaches it and he's told me to not even go there.

The aorist tense is not a FIRM tense. It changes with the wording. WE here cannot understand it.

BTW, Hope you saw my post above on §2 Peter 2:20-22 and the Greek for KNOWLEDGE.

Wanna give it a try?
Post no. 1681

 

[GodsGrace]

No, ma'am, it isn't always. The aorist tense is used often.


Why would anyone assume the English present tense is the same for the Greek? Acts 16:31 is in the aorist tense. Along with Rom 10:10.

We don't learn of the actual (real) tense that was used in the original language UNLESS we consult a Greek lexicon, not google.

Hmmm. Maybe it was Acts 16:31 that I was answering to?
Not sure.
Doesn't matter.
I'm not interested int he Aorist tense.
English if just fine to understand the bible.

BTW, Could you please show me how Acts 16:31 and Romans 10:10 doesn't say what it says?
I'll be checking it out with someone I know who doesn't believe eternal salvation is biblical and he's a theologian who knows koine Greek.

I do believe I trust HIM more than i trust You.

I also trust all the warnings Jesus gave us to adhere to His commands more than I trust you.

Wonder why He would go to so much trouble?

What if we don't adhere to His commands?
Do those who abadon God adhere?

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering said: ↑
Did you ever notice that BELIEVE is always in the present tense?
Just google BELIEVE. There are many, many verses.
Here are a few:

But if the only "source" of information used is google, the truth will never come to light.

The mistake is to assume the present tense in our English language is what was used by the original writers, which, of course, is totally false. And a number of citations noted used 'believe' in the aorist tense, which refutes her conclusions.

Please don't speak about me to another poster as if I weren't here.

First of all it's against the TOS.
Second, it's rather rude.

Thanks.

 

[GodsGrace]

There are no verses that SAY that one who no longer believes no longer has life.

In fact, we have a guarantee from Jesus. Those who receive eternal life will never perish. John 10:28. That means those who receive eternal life STILL HAVE LIFE. And Jesus added no other conditions than simply receiving the gift.

One verse.
Not enough.

Here's the concept:

In Jesus is the life.
If we are in Jesus, we have the life.

If we remove ourselves from Jesus we no longer have the light --
if the only way to have the light is IN JESUS.

1 John 1:7

Jesus Himself is the light.
If we walk with Him we have the light and have fellowship with Him,
AND THE BLOOD OF JESUS CLEANSES US FROM ALL SIN.

So what if we DON'T walk with Him in the light,
does His blood still cleanse us?

No.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Please explain what He "really" means in John 10:28.

What we have here from Hyper-grace doctrine is the hallmark of false doctrine: not rightly dividing the word of God. The argument is being made that John 10:28 places no requirement for believing in order to have eternal life:

"28and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand." (John 10:28 NASB)

The false Hyper-grace argument is created by isolating the verse away from the whole counsel of the Bible, which Paul refers to as not rightly dividing the word of God. But for those who know the Bible we know that Jesus did indeed say that it is the person who believes that has eternal life and will never perish:

24“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life." (John 5:24 NASB)

All through this thread Hyper-grace doctrine has emphasized everything in the passage in an attempt to defend itself except the plain fact that Jesus says it is the one who believes that has eternal life, not the one who used to believe as Hyper-grace doctrine asserts.

 

[GodsGrace]

And I pointed out several that, in the original language, were in the aorist tense, which refutes your claim.


How about a very clear promise from Jesus Himself? Is that good enough?
John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Jesus based the promise of "never perishing" upon receiving the gift of eternal life. Nothing else.

If Jesus keeps His promises, then everyone who has ever believed will not perish, because that's exactly what Jesus promised.

John 10:28

verse 27: Jesus' sheep hear His voice.
He knows them and they FOLLOW Him.

Cerainly the Lord's sheep will follow Him. Do those who have abandoned God FOLLOW Jesus?
It is to THESE (the Lord's sheep) that Jesus makes the following promise:

verse 28: Jesus gives TO HIS SHEEP eternal life.
And they shall never perish.

No BELIEVER (present tense) of Jesus need ever fear that GOD will let them down and make them perish.
God is faithiful to Himself. (to His word)
2 Timothy 2:13

Re the snatching out of God's hand...
No need to repeat what this means.
NO ONE can snatch you out of God's hands.
NO ONE.
But you can leave if you want to....

Did you lose your free will when you became saved??

 

[Jethro Bodine]

And such a thought demonstrates just how much God's grace is not understood. Or accepted by them.

Hyper-grace doctrine is the doctrine that turns the grace of God into a license to sin. And that is supposedly the true understanding of grace. Once again, though, those who know the Bible know that the grace of God is NOT a license to engage in willful unbelief and the sin that results from that (Jude 1:4 NASB).

God's grace was given us to say 'no' to ungodliness (Titus 2:11-14 NASB). Hyper-grace doctrine says grace was given to us to say 'yes' to ungodliness in a willful, flagrant, denial and unbelief of Christ and that you are still saved despite that unbelief. There is no passage of scripture that says that. Jude tells us who these teachers are that teach grace is a license to sin, and what their outcome is (Jude 1:4 NASB).

He said they will not be forgiven. But how is that "not saved"?? It would be just a huge assumption, that's all.

Interesting how Hyper-grace doctrine repeatedly refuses to acknowledge that Jesus is teaching us the revoking of a gift in the kingdom of God in Matthew 18:23-35 NASB--the very thing that Hyper-grace doctrine firmly insists can never ever happen. It will dance around the obvious with all kinds of reasons why the passage doesn't mean loss of redemption and will never be able to explain the obvious, plain fact taught in the passage that the free gift of forgiveness can and will be revoked in the kingdom.

 

[GodsGrace]

It is in the aorist tense, not present tense, as being assumed wrongly.


No, it is only an assumption, and a false one at that, that your claim is true. Google doesn't examine the original language.

But, as I recall, you've shown a preference for the English translations, rather than what the original Greek says.

Yes FG,

Here's why I prefer English.
I UNDERSTAND IT.
This is a good reason.

I trust the persons who translated the bible. They have all those initials after their names, which we don't have.

Could you please EXPLAIN the aorist tense to me?
That would be nice.

Oh. And don't go to google since it does not examine the original language so you must apparently know it !

 

[Nathan]

What words did I add?

And to merely read the parable as "The seed on the rock believe-period" is exactly my point. It ignores the rest of Jesus' illustrations whereby He explicitly says;

Matthew 13:23 But what was sown on the good soil—this is the one who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces, this one a hundred times as much, and this one sixty, and this one thirty.” ​

Not to mention that you said; "The seed on the rock believe"???
It is important to understand that "the seed" is the word about the kingdom, not the rock (men). Your statement has the seed (the word) believing something, not the man. If you misunderstand this, you misunderstand the parable.


An additional distinction between the good soil and the other three 'soils' is that the good soil—this is the one who hears the word and understands it ...

Matthew 13:14-15, 19a and with reference to them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says, “You will listen carefully and will never understand, and you will look closely and will never perceive. For the heart of this people has become dull, and with their ears they hear with difficulty, and they have shut their eyes, so that they would not see with their eyes and hear with their ears and understand with their heart and turn, and I would heal them.”
...
When anyone hears the word about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. ​

If the rock would have understood it and had the Root in himself, God would have healed him.



You add soil depth and a root to Jesus' interpretation of this rock example when Jesus specifically says the rock where the seed sprang up (not down) had neither;

Matthew 13:5 And other seed fell on the rocky ground, where it did not have much soil, and it sprang up at once because it did not have any depth of soil.

Matthew 13:21 But he does not have a root in himself, but lasts only a little while, and when affliction or persecution happens because of the word, immediately he falls away.
​

Jesus says the rock "does not have a root in himself", yet you say "the depth of the root was not much at all". Only one of you is correct. And, like I said (without adding to the passage), there was one example who understood the word about the kingdom.

Maybe you are not familiar with how plants work? There has to be some 'depth' of soil(not that it actually matters to the parable) in order for the plant to grow. A seed sends down a root first, then the plant emerges.

You seem to think that they have no life in them, that they never believed. Luke 8 tells us specifically they believed, and the fact that the plant had life proves that.

I understand what the seed is, and what the soil is. My point, when I made the statement I did(which would have been seen if taken in context) was that you inserted the words "did not understand" and those words are not there. Seed, rocky soil, believe - period.

You asked for a description of where Jesus talks about a person who once believed, and then no longer believes. This is clear proof of that.

Luk 8:13
And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away.

 

[Nathan]

As I have been following the discussions upon discussions upon discussion between OSAS and OSNAS there has been something that came to me. Those from the OSAS position have indicated that loss of salvation is not possible but the Scripture references brought up to counter that view are speaking about loss or walking away from fellowship and not salvation. As I was thinking about this a thought occurred to me. What would eternal life look like without fellowship with God? It sounds to me like a living hell.

Actually, if you view the parable of the sower it is obvious.

The seed is the word of God.

Luk 8:11
Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.



We believe in salvation from the Words of God.

Rom 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.



Without salvation, there is no life in a person.

Jhn 6:63
It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.



Therefore, if the seed on the rocky ground produced life, and then as Jesus stated, the one who believes "falls away" during times of testing, then that shows the point that there are people who believe - then turn away from salvation.

Luk 8:13
And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away.

Mar 4:5-6
Other seed fell on rocky ground, where it did not have much soil, and immediately it sprang up, since it had no depth of soil. And when the sun rose, it was scorched, and since it had no root, it withered away.

 

[Nathan]

There are no verses that SAY that one who no longer believes no longer has life.

Mar 4:5
Other seed fell on rocky ground, where it did not have much soil, and immediately it sprang up, since it had no depth of soil. And when the sun rose, it was scorched, and since it had no root, it withered away.

Is a plant that "withers away" still alive?

 

[Nathan]

You add soil depth and a root to Jesus' interpretation of this rock example when Jesus specifically says the rock where the seed sprang up (not down) had neither;
.

If you would not proof text, then you would see that other accounts of the parable show that there was 'some' soil, jut not much depth - as I stated.

Mar 4:5
Other seed fell on rocky ground, where it did not have much soil, and immediately it sprang up, since it had no depth of soil.

There has to be soil of some kind, and some amount, for a plant to grow. God designed it this way.

 

[Jim Parker]

Acts 16:31 and the aorist tense and meaning of "believe" in said verse...: etc. etc.......

The tense of a verb is not a good foundation on which to build a doctrine particularly when there are examples in scripture which definitely refute that salvation is a "one time" event.
Act 2:47b And the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved.
1Co 1:18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
2Co 2:15For we are the aroma of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing,
The words "being saved" refer to being "in the process of being saved."

Could you show me where in Acts 16:31 it is meant that a person believes ONE TIME IN THE PAST and it ENDURES FOREVER INTO THE FUTURE.
This would be interesting.

It would indeed be interesting. the verse ways: "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."
There is no indication of time or permanence in that statement.
What did Jesus say?
Mat 10:22 ... you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.
Mat 24:13 But he who endures to the end will be saved.
Mar 13:13 ... you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.
Now there is a clear indication of time. Endurance to the end (assumedly of ones life) is necessary to be saved.
It is illogical to assume that Jesus would make such a statement if it were an impossibility to "get saved" and not endure to the end.
If it were not a possibility then no warning would be necessary and Jesus was just babbling.

iakov the fool

 

[MarkT]

Sure do. He said they will not be forgiven. But how is that "not saved"?? It would be just a huge assumption, that's all.

And 1 John 1:9 means the same thing. The only way to restore fellowship for the believer is to confess their sins. And if they don't confess, they remain unforgiven and out of fellowship, but John said NOTHING about losing salvation. His point was all about fellowship.

God forgave us by sacrificing his Son; his Son became a sin offering. So since God forgave us, we must forgive others. That is his commandment. If you do not forgive others, God will not forgive you. "For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." Mt. 6:14-15

What does it mean? It means you will have to stand trial and be sentenced, and the penalty for sin is death in the lake of fire.

 

[Jim Parker]

Romans 11:24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree? ​

When Paul spoke of being grafted into a cultivated olive tree, he was speaking about Gentiles.

no kidding
The subject of the passage is ISRAEL.

 

[gr8grace3]

I have concluded from all the posts of those who think that salvation can be lost that their view is based entirely on emotions.

And since they generally come up with the "worst case scenario" of a believer rejecting Christ, something that is totally unacceptable to them, it MUST BE just as unacceptable to God Himself.

I believe that is what drives their energy. Emotions.

I agree. Eternal security is out of this world. We as humans(with finite minds) could and would NEVER come up with the fact of eternal security. Left to ourselves, we would ALWAYS put conditions on our salvation.

And......If salvation is subjective and we get to set our own rules for remaining saved. The natural(fleshly) thing to do is focus on "the worst case scenario".......Because I would NEVER do that!!!!<<<<<<Arguably the most dangerous statement any of us could utter.

 

[chessman]

The subject of the passage is ISRAEL.

So your opinion is a wild olive tree = Israel???

Romans 11:13, 17 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Therefore, inasmuch as I am apostle to the Gentiles, I promote my ministry, ...​

Now if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although you were a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them and became a sharer of the root of the olive tree’s richness, ​

 

[Jim Parker]

So your opinion is a wild olive tree = Israel???

Romans 11:13, 17 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Therefore, inasmuch as I am apostle to the Gentiles, I promote my ministry, ...​

Now if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although you were a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them and became a sharer of the root of the olive tree’s richness, ​

This is getting absurd.
Did I say wild olive tree = Israel???
NO.
I did not.
I have no idea how you could possibly have come to that conclusion.

 

[gr8grace3]

Act_16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.[/QUOTE]

Saved~~Passive voice, the Lord Jesus Christ does the saving. Salvation is based upon the merit of the Lord. Not believing.

We are saved BY grace(the merit) through the non-meritorious action of believing.

If we have faith to get on a plane and fly across the country. And we hit some turbulence, and lose our faith in the plane in mid flight and the plane makes it to our destination................what has the merit? The plane or our faith?

Not even a human pilot would come out of the cockpit and say." Who lost faith? He did? Open the door and kick him out!"