Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works

[Nathan]

Thanks for agreeing with me.

What does "won't die" mean?


Have you never seen a withered plant?


The point of the parable is about producing fruit, or not. And the attitudes that don't produce fruit (soils #2,3), vs the attitude that does (soil #4).

I have seen a withered plant, but you keep cutting off the rest of that verse. That's kind of tricky isnt it?

The rest of the verse says that the plant is withered away. That does not mean just withered, it means dead. It died(away) by withering.

Attitude? You are correct, the parable is also about fruit. Can someone in Christ bear no fruit at all?

Jhn 15:2
Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit.

 

[chessman]

The rest of the verse says that the plant is withered away.

No it doesn't.

Mark 4:4 And it happened that while he was sowing, some seed fell on the side of the path, and the birds came and devoured it. ​

The birds devoured "it" the "seed" not a plant.

Likewise:

Mark 4:5-6 And other seed fell on the rocky ground where it did not have much soil, and it sprang up at once, because it did not have any depth of soil. And when the sun rose it was scorched, and because it did not have enough root, it withered.​

"It", the seed, withered because the seed did not have "any" depth of soil.

The only "plants" in this parable are thorns!

 

[Jim Parker]

You never asked me.If you don't really know what I meant by saying "Christ is the merit",how can you possibly say this .........

Jim Parker said: ↑
Then why are you touting the RCC "Merit" doctrine?

Yes. You referred to "His (Jesus') merit."
I pointed out that the RCC has a doctrine which has to do with Jesus merit.
I have asked you to tell me what you mean by merit.
Can you do that?

 

[MarkT]

But that's not the question. Your response answers the question of "still be his wife". What good is being a child of God and out of fellowship with Him? It doesn't end the relationship any more than your marital relationship would be ended by having no fellowship with your spouse.


Jesus says otherwise. John 15;
1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener.
2He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.
3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you.
4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.
6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.
7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.
8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.
9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love.

Now, let's examine each verse.
1. Jesus asserts His authority.
2. Jesus wants His disciples to be even more fruitful, through pruning. Notice He wasn't concerned about "keeping them saved". We know this from an earlier verse; John 10:28 where He promises that those He gives (at the beginning of their faith) eternal life and they will never perish.
3. Jesus affirms the 11 remaining disciples saved status.
4. Jesus says believers must be in fellowship in order to bear much fruit. Apart from fellowship with Him, one can bear no fruit.
5. Again, Jesus repeats the principle that a believer must be in fellowship with Him in order to bear fruit.
6. Jesus warns of discipline (not hell as commonly assumed) for believers who are out of fellowship and fruitless.
7. Jesus promises that God answers the prayers of believers who are in fellowship.
8. Being in fellowship and bearing much fruit is to His Father's glory. And show that we are His disciples.
9. Jesus again affirms His love for believers and commands them to stay in fellowship.

Re: v.9, note that Jesus didn't command them to "stay in My hand". hint: John 10:28-29


Since He told His disciples that He considered them friends, and said this:
John 15:15 - I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you.

The problem is you're interpreting instead of reading. Reading requires English comprehension ie. understanding words. Jesus said he was the true vine. You need to look up these words in the dictionary. I, vine, true, Father, gardener

 

[Nathan]

No it doesn't.

Mark 4:4 And it happened that while he was sowing, some seed fell on the side of the path, and the birds came and devoured it. ​

The birds devoured "it" the "seed" not a plant.

Likewise:

Mark 4:5-6 And other seed fell on the rocky ground where it did not have much soil, and it sprang up at once, because it did not have any depth of soil. And when the sun rose it was scorched, and because it did not have enough root, it withered.​

"It", the seed, withered because the seed did not have "any" depth of soil.

The only "plants" in this parable are thorns!

Well, I can honestly say I've never seen a seed "spring up". I highly doubt that those Jesus was talking too would have taken it that way.

When a seed springs up, it is because it starts to grow. When a seed starts to grow, it is no longer a seed. Which, if we look at Jesus explanation of the parable, we understand that it is representative of the life that believing brings to a person.

 

[FreeGrace]

Yep.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old things have passed away (aorist); behold, new things have come (perfect).​

Can you believe that some people, this very day, are teaching that NOT every new creature of God's is good and some will be rejected even though they have been made holy (sanctified) by the word of God Himself. Talk about an apostasy from the faith, that takes the cake.

Yes, sir!

1 Timothy 4:4-5 because everything created by God is good and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thankfulness, for it is made holy by the word of God and prayer.

Amen!

 

[FreeGrace]

Since they receive eternal life in Christ, then I believe those in Christ will never perish.

Then why believe that one who has received eternal life from Christ can perish?

Do you believe there is eternal life apart from Christ?

Of course not. But that is not the question.

The question that your side cannot answer is Scriptural support for anyone who has believed losing their gift of eternal life and perishing.

Jesus said that was impossible. For anyone who believes receives eternal life. So it's clear that all who have believed (aorist) will never perish.

That's eternal security.

 

[FreeGrace]

I have seen a withered plant, but you keep cutting off the rest of that verse. That's kind of tricky isnt it?

No, I see nothing tricky at all in the parable of the soil.

The rest of the verse says that the plant is withered away. That does not mean just withered, it means dead. It died(away) by withering.[/QUOTE]
I believe that is simply reading into the text what the text DOES NOT SAY.

Attitude? You are correct, the parable is also about fruit. Can someone in Christ bear no fruit at all?

Yep. Jesus even pointed that out. In Luke 8.

 

[Nathan]

Then why believe that one who has received eternal life from Christ can perish?


Of course not. But that is not the question.

The question that your side cannot answer is Scriptural support for anyone who has believed losing their gift of eternal life and perishing.

Jesus said that was impossible. For anyone who believes receives eternal life. So it's clear that all who have believed (aorist) will never perish.

That's eternal security.

Because you keep wording it wrong. Our life is in Him, not from Him - as in without us being in Him. If we are not in Christ, we simply do not have eternal life.

Jesus meant exactly what He said that the one who believes has eternal life. Because the one who believes is in Christ.

I think your still trying to relate our reception of eternal life with something we do? That's a works based salvation, and I will always oppose it.

 

[Nathan]

No, I see nothing tricky at all in the parable of the soil.

The rest of the verse says that the plant is withered away. That does not mean just withered, it means dead. It died(away) by withering.
I believe that is simply reading into the text what the text DOES NOT SAY.


Yep. Jesus even pointed that out. In Luke 8.

Actually, it's reading exactly what the text says and not taking anything from it because I want it to fit my doctrine. Why are you opposed to leaving it the way it was written?

Matthew 13:6 (ESV)
but when the sun rose they were scorched. And since they had no root, they withered away.

Mark 4:6 (ESV)
And when the sun rose, it was scorched, and since it had no root, it withered away.

Luke 8:6 (ESV)
And some fell on the rock, and as it grew up, it withered away, because it had no moisture.

The plant that came from the seed died, that is not reading into the text, it's stating the facts.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Then why believe that one who has received eternal life from Christ can perish?

Of course not. But that is not the question.

The question that your side cannot answer is Scriptural support for anyone who has believed losing their gift of eternal life and perishing.

Jesus said that was impossible. For anyone who believes receives eternal life. So it's clear that all who have believed (aorist) will never perish.

That's eternal security."

Because you keep wording it wrong.

I just challenged your side with providing Scriptural support. How did I "word it wrong"?

Our life is in Him, not from Him - as in without us being in Him.

I've always quoted Eph 1:13 correctly: we are sealed IN HIM with the Spirit.
And I've always quoted John 10:28 correctly: Jesus gives eternal life to them (believers) and they will never perish.

So I'm at a loss as to what I've worded wrongly. Please advise.

If we are not in Christ, we simply do not have eternal life.

I've never argued against this. Of course no one has eternal life who aren't in Him. Why would anyone think that I believe otherwise?

Jesus meant exactly what He said that the one who believes has eternal life. Because the one who believes is in Christ.

Right. And having believed (aorist tense), they are sealed IN HIM with the Spirit. That's how they get to be "in Him". By being sealed.

I think your still trying to relate our reception of eternal life with something we do?

We must believe. Didn't you know that?

That's a works based salvation, and I will always oppose it.

I also oppose any works for salvation. But believing is not a work. It's by grace. Not by works.

Eph 2:8 says we are saved by grace through faith. Do you understand that?

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"No, I see nothing tricky at all in the parable of the soil.

The rest of the verse says that the plant is withered away. That does not mean just withered, it means dead. It died(away) by withering.
I believe that is simply reading into the text what the text DOES NOT SAY.

Yep. Jesus even pointed that out. In Luke 8."

Actually, it's reading exactly what the text says and not taking anything from it because I want it to fit my doctrine. Why are you opposed to leaving it the way it was written?

How have I done that? Please explain. I haven't changed anything in the parable, so I have no idea what you're referring to.

Matthew 13:6 (ESV)
but when the sun rose they were scorched. And since they had no root, they withered away.

Mark 4:6 (ESV)
And when the sun rose, it was scorched, and since it had no root, it withered away.

Luke 8:6 (ESV)
And some fell on the rock, and as it grew up, it withered away, because it had no moisture.

The plant that came from the seed died, that is not reading into the text, it's stating the facts.

I'm being charged with changing Scripture, and yet your view is that the plant died. Where does the text say "died"? It doesn't. You've changed what the text says.

You've merely assumed that to "wither away" means "to die". But that just denies reality. There are many plants that have withered away and yet are not dead. I'm sorry if you've never seen any. But that is a fact, and the Bible didn't say the plant died.

 

[Nathan]

I said this:
"Then why believe that one who has received eternal life from Christ can perish?

Of course not. But that is not the question.

The question that your side cannot answer is Scriptural support for anyone who has believed losing their gift of eternal life and perishing.

Jesus said that was impossible. For anyone who believes receives eternal life. So it's clear that all who have believed (aorist) will never perish.

That's eternal security."

I just challenged your side with providing Scriptural support. How did I "word it wrong"?


I've always quoted Eph 1:13 correctly: we are sealed IN HIM with the Spirit.
And I've always quoted John 10:28 correctly: Jesus gives eternal life to them (believers) and they will never perish.

So I'm at a loss as to what I've worded wrongly. Please advise.


I've never argued against this. Of course no one has eternal life who aren't in Him. Why would anyone think that I believe otherwise?


Right. And having believed (aorist tense), they are sealed IN HIM with the Spirit. That's how they get to be "in Him". By being sealed.


We must believe. Didn't you know that?


I also oppose any works for salvation. But believing is not a work. It's by grace. Not by works.

Eph 2:8 says we are saved by grace through faith. Do you understand that?

He does give us eternal life in Him. If we leave Him, we leave eternal life, because it is only in Him we have it.

Unless you think we do something to have it apart from Him? Can we do something to receive eternal life, then leave Him, and retain the eternal life apart from Him?

 

[GodsGrace]

Oh?
If I decide to keep all my money to myself and not give it to the rich pastor, I'm still saved?

Of course.

If it was that easy to lose salvation, NONE of us would be saved.
Just because you don't give money to the church --- even if you gave nothing at all --- you still wouldn't be denying God.

You should see what people here put into the basket. They'd all be going straight to hell if it depended on that!

I sure hope you were kidding ...

 

[Nathan]

I said this:
"No, I see nothing tricky at all in the parable of the soil.

The rest of the verse says that the plant is withered away. That does not mean just withered, it means dead. It died(away) by withering.
I believe that is simply reading into the text what the text DOES NOT SAY.

Yep. Jesus even pointed that out. In Luke 8."

How have I done that? Please explain. I haven't changed anything in the parable, so I have no idea what you're referring to.


I'm being charged with changing Scripture, and yet your view is that the plant died. Where does the text say "died"? It doesn't. You've changed what the text says.

You've merely assumed that to "wither away" means "to die". But that just denies reality. There are many plants that have withered away and yet are not dead. I'm sorry if you've never seen any. But that is a fact, and the Bible didn't say the plant died.

To wither away means to have no life left in something. It has no use. Dried up.

John 15:6 (ESV) 6 If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.

The context and terminology both state the plant is dead.

Why do you oppose what is so plainly taught?

Show me in the Bible where any plant that is spoken of as "withering away" is still alive.

 

[gr8grace3]

Yes. You referred to "His (Jesus') merit."
I pointed out that the RCC has a doctrine which has to do with Jesus merit.
I have asked you to tell me what you mean by merit.
Can you do that?

We are saved by His merit. His Grace.

Most everybody here is saying we are saved by our personal belief and continuing belief. Our merit. Which is basically what the RCC says and believes.

Now how is that touting the RCC doctrine Of "merit"? Since you ACCUSED me of touting it.

 

[GodsGrace]

I would beg to differ.


From fear, or from what, then?


With all due respect to your Greek teacher, nonsense. Any Greek grammar text explains it clearly. There's nothing to be afraid of.

The problem is your dismissal of it from very bad advise, from one who should know better.

Listen to me FG,

I really don't wish to argue this with you.
You have an attitude that is difficult to contend with.

You shouldn't be demeaning about persons you don't even know.

My friend happens to be a theologian who knows Koine Greek and has taught it.
He knows at least 6 languages that I can think of off hand.

Do you think I'm going to believe what YOU know about Koine Greek over what HE KNOWS?

I asked you about a week ago to post something about koine greek, maybe form the internet or from some book you've studied.
Did you do it ? NO!

Because it's not as simple as you make it out to be.

Anyway, this discussion, if serious, would become very long.

All I'll say is that you cannot take verses out of the N.T. and make doctrine out of them.
The N.T. is an entire thought, a complete thought.
Why is the bible such a great book?
Because it was written over the time span of about 1,500 years and is in complete harmony with itself.
You are attempting to break that harmony.

Please learn about Justification and Sanctification.
If you understand Sanctification you must also understand that there's no such concept as eternal security.

It is eternal only for as long as you have faith, believe and live within the commandments JESUS left us with.
Not the commandments Calvin or Luther left us with.

 

[GodsGrace]

I get tons of edification from Him. He tells the truth of Gods word. We don't have to be personable and "nice" to edify Brothers and Sisters.

If we WANT the truth God gives it to us. And FreeGrace is a perfect example. God has him here to give us the truth IF we want it.

I have a great pastor teacher, and if I wasn't sitting under him to learn.......I would not even hesitate to sit under FreeGrace.

Geesh, just look at all the posts where he is literally RUN into the ground personally..........and can you find a post where he defends his person?

He is teaching truth. And obviously he isn't doing it for himself.......I haven't seen someone take the beatings he has taken and still keep on ticken if he was doing it for his benefit.

We would all do WELL to listen and learn from him.

WE WOULD ALL DO WELL TO LEARN AND LISTEN TO WHAT THE NEW TESTAMENT TELLS US.

Which is not the same as what FreeGrace "teaches".

 

[MarkT]

This completely misses the whole point of Eph 1:13,14.

The point is that "having believed", which is aorist tense, and means a simple occurrence, or a point in time action, one IS sealed IN HIM with the Holy Spirit. So it doesn't have to make any distinction about any future possibility of the believer. From just having believed in a point in time, as a simple occurrence, one IS sealed IN HIM, for the day of redemption.

They heard the word of truth, the gospel, and they believed in him. Of course it happened when they heard the gospel.

Just because it happened at a point in time, it does not mean 'from a simple occurrence' as if believing is a simple occurrence or a point in time action.
Paul said they were sealed in Christ with the promised Holy Spirit, that is to say, the Spirit sealed them in Christ. So what can we say? Those who possess the Spirit are sealed in Christ.

But the point is there is no such thing as a simple one time occurrence of belief.

OK, so how's that not eternal security?


They're still sealed IN HIM. That's the promise when one has believed. It doesn't matter what happens future to that.


When the Bible speaks of those who have "not believed" it isn't speaking about 'former believers'. That's just a faulty construct to defend an unbiblical idea.

The Bible refers to former believers as apostates. That's how they are identified.


I don't follow you. First, there are NO VERSES that support your claim here.

Second, Eph 1:13,14 PROMISES the one having believed an inheritance for the day of redemption.

How in the world can this be anything other than eternal security?

The Holy Spirit is our security.

 

[MarkT]

Psalm 125:1
Those who trust in the Lord are like Mount Zion, which cannot be moved, but abides for ever.