I already asked how many kinds of sancfication there are in the Bible, in order to determine whether you know what it is and means.
I'm waiting for your answer. Then I'll answer your question about it.
Christian Forums
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Are you taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works
- Thread starter Jim Parker
- Start date
I'm waiting for your answer. Then I'll answer your question about it.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Try the entire New Testament.
I'm not quoting any verses, it's a waste of time with you.
Interesting analogy. I like it. I recall an angel telling John to take the scroll and eat it. And I seem to recall David using that analogy regarding God's Word.
Nathan
Member
I've never understood why someone will take Jesus name, and try to say that He was 'lying' if someone disagree's with their thoughts.
Jesus promised those in Him would never perish. He never promised those who leave Him will never perish.
Psa 73:27-28
For behold, those who are far from you shall perish;
you put an end to everyone who is unfaithful to you.
But for me it is good to be near God;
I have made the Lord GOD my refuge,
that I may tell of all your works.
Jhn 6:47-51
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”
Why bring that up again? I've already refuted such a notion. Of course the seal is not a lid on a jar. Please don't be so ridiculous.
The answer to your question of why it hasn't been proven to me is because no one has provided ANY Scripture that says the sealing with the Holy Spirit can be removed, broken, taken away, or any other words to convey that idea.
What has not been shown is that any believer, for any reason, can lose the Holy Spirit, break the seal, and have the guarantee of their inheritance revoked.
That's not what Scripture says. So I'll remind you:
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory. Eph 1
The ones having believed "were marked in Him with a seal, the Spirit".
The Spriit "is a deposit GUARANTEEING our inheritance"
This deposit which GUARANTEES our inheritance is "until the redemption of God's possession".
How in the word is this not about eternal security?
While true, Eph 1:13,14 isn't trumped by anything we do. Or Paul would have noted it within that context.
And those sealed are guaranteed their inheritance for the day of redemption, as God's possession. Still eternal security.
The fact is that one having believed, can be "apart from Christ". One can rebel, but they are still sealed.
Nathan
Member
Your asking for an erroneous argument. I never said the seal can be removed, broken, taken away or anything else.
You can leave Christ. If you leave Christ, you leave the seal. You don't break it. You don't remove it. You don't take it away. You leave it.
I am glad you posted that passage. It says "you were marked". The seal is a mark, not a lid, not something that can be 'broken'.
The Spirit is the guarantee, not something we did. If we have the Spirit, we have the seal, we have the guarantee. If we leave Christ, we do not have those things anymore. They are not broken, removed, taken away - they are simply left behind, disregarded.
Eternal security is in Christ, not in something you do/did. If you are in Christ, you are eternally secure. You will not lose the inheritance if you are in Christ.
Mat 24:9-13
Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name’s sake. And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.
Where does it say that a person can be apart from Christ and still be sealed? Where does it say that those who fall away are still sealed?
OK, let's just move on. And discuss what Jesus meant in John 10:28. He said, "I give them eternal life and they will never perish."Ah, I almost feel like I am in middle school. I have not proven that withered away means there is no life, is kind of like proving to you that the clouds are in the sky. How do you "prove" something that is staring you right in the face?
xēraínō, xay-rah'-ee-no; from G3584; to desiccate; by implication, to shrivel, to mature:—dry up, pine away, be ripe, wither (away).
When something "dries up" there is no life in it. If a plant is absent from moisture, it is dead. You are trying to remove the "away" portion of the verse, while that is the exact word that stares you in the face as proof of it being dead.
I notice that never perishing is based solely on what Jesus does, not anything we do or not do.
What say you?
Wow, a complete missing of my point. John 10:28 promises that those He gives eternal life will never perish. This is eternal security.
My point is that if salvation can be lost, Jesus had to either be kidding or lying.
Well, it would have been helpful to have actually read the verse before making such a mistake.
Here's the verse: I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. John 10:28
And we know HOW one receives eternal life; by believing in Him. John 3:15,16, 5:24, 6:40, 47, 11:25-26.
So, He never even suggested that there were ways to perish even after receiving eternal life.
Is it not clear that His promise is based SOLELY on what He does for us? And has nothing to do with what we do or not do?
Uh, we're talking about the promise Jesus makes for those He gives eternal life.
Nathan
Member
Ok.
Yep, never perishing(eternal life) is based on His life, not ours.
He 'gives' us His life, and that life is eternal.
1Jo 1:1-2
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we looked upon and have touched with our hands, concerning the word of life — the life was made manifest, and we have seen it, and testify to it and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was made manifest to us—
1Jo 5:11-12
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.
So, if we are in Him, then we have eternal life and will never perish. If we are not found in Him, then we will not have eternal life, and we will perish.
Heb 9:27-28
And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.
Nathan
Member
I noticed you are not able to show where it says that a person can be apart from Christ and still be sealed? Where does it say that those who fall away are still sealed?
I have shown you where someone can leave Christ and wont be saved -
Mat 24:9-13
Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name’s sake. And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.
Heb 10:35-39
Therefore do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward. For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God you may receive what is promised. For,
“Yet a little while,
and the coming one will come and will not delay;
but my righteous one shall live by faith,
and if he shrinks back,
my soul has no pleasure in him.”
But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and preserve their souls.
So how about now you show us where someone can leave Him and still be saved?
Okay, this thread is full of insults, off-topic taunts, personal remarks about each other and each other's views, arrogant and snarly come backs, and just plain rude and unchristian behavior. I have removed more posts than I care to count from the past 8 pages or so. I doubt I managed to catch everything but I hope I removed the worst. There are too many that make this topic personal, getting personally defensive rather than just giving the reason for the hope they have. There is absolutely no excuse for this. Take a breath, relax, and clean up responses.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Nathan,
I've begun to see this behavior you talk about.
Some type of new Christian, not necessarily here (really), that say that THEY have the truth and everyone else is wrong and if we don't agree with them and believe something else then they call Jesus a liar. I call this grieving the Holy Spirit, but whatever they want.
I don't know if it's the hyper faith movement. I think this goes beyond that.
It's causing much division between Christian brothers.
There is name-calling and an attitude of superiority against all who do not agree.
I'm bringing this to your attention because I don't know if you're familiar with this.
It's something new and different. Maybe it's what @Jethro is talking about...
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Reba,
I find it upsetting because it's not a normal debate where persons state their beliefs, post verses and discuss. This is normal.
I see this as a watering down of Christianity. I heard a preacher on TV (can't remember who) say that if we ask forgiveness for sin we insult God because they are already forgiven.
I hear that all we need is belief in Jesus and we don't have to do anything because He did it all. This is not what I read in the N.T.
I've never heard of this before. It's all new. Some make it sound like a Christian could do whatever he wants to and still be saved.
It sounds like dangerous doctrine to me for new Christians that might be reading along.
I'm always thinking about them and what they might misinterpret...
Nathan
Member
I have come to the absolute conclusion that there are only two sides of the debate about salvation. Those who believe you have to do 'something' for salvation, and those who believe Jesus did it all.
In the side that believes you have to do something for salvation, it is broken down into two sub categories. Those who believe you have to do something one time, and those who believe you have to continue to.
Those who believe Jesus did it all, have placed all their belief in Him - not on what they did at a moment in time, or what they do day to day. Their trust is in Him, and Him alone.
You can 'tell' the difference between the two groups by the fruit you see growing - or lack thereof on the one side. The true side will have good fruit - period. The false side will have bad fruit, or no fruit at all.
Its really quite simple. Fruit happens naturally. We don't have to make it grow, it is either going to grow........or not. When someone 'believes' in Christ, there is going to be fruit that grows. This is what we should be teaching!
Not teaching that we have to do things, or that all we have to do is believe. The NT writers were constantly talking about what was going on in the present life of a believer, and they were talking about it in the sense of what Christ was doing in them.
Mat 7:15-20
Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.
Rom 12:1-2
I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.
In the side that believes you have to do something for salvation, it is broken down into two sub categories. Those who believe you have to do something one time, and those who believe you have to continue to.
Those who believe Jesus did it all, have placed all their belief in Him - not on what they did at a moment in time, or what they do day to day. Their trust is in Him, and Him alone.
You can 'tell' the difference between the two groups by the fruit you see growing - or lack thereof on the one side. The true side will have good fruit - period. The false side will have bad fruit, or no fruit at all.
Its really quite simple. Fruit happens naturally. We don't have to make it grow, it is either going to grow........or not. When someone 'believes' in Christ, there is going to be fruit that grows. This is what we should be teaching!
Not teaching that we have to do things, or that all we have to do is believe. The NT writers were constantly talking about what was going on in the present life of a believer, and they were talking about it in the sense of what Christ was doing in them.
Mat 7:15-20
Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.
Rom 12:1-2
I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.
So there's nothing we can do, or fail to do that changes our eternal destiny, for any reason.Ok.
Yep, never perishing(eternal life) is based on His life, not ours.
No, He doesn't 'give' us His life, He gives us His life. There's no quote marks around what He gives to believers.
Then this directly means that Jesus' promise in Jn 10:28 can be broken. How can anyone live with that?
To not perish is based SOLELY on receiving the gift of eternal life. Jesus said so.
Was Jesus serious when He promised those He gives eternal life will never perish in John 10:28?
Just curious.
OK. Since Jesus DID do it ALL, then how can anyone lose what He obtained?
That's basically implying that one's actions "outdo" what Jesus did. Or trump what He did.