Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works

[FreeGrace]

AMEN!!

Felllowship is everything. I never even answer to this anymore.
If I'm married, and have no fellowship with my husband, I may still be his wife, but what good is it???

But that's not the question. Your response answers the question of "still be his wife". What good is being a child of God and out of fellowship with Him? It doesn't end the relationship any more than your marital relationship would be ended by having no fellowship with your spouse.

Anyway, Jesus was not concerned with loss of fellowship.

Jesus says otherwise. John 15;
1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener.
2He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.
3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you.
4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.
6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.
7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.
8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.
9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love.

Now, let's examine each verse.
1. Jesus asserts His authority.
2. Jesus wants His disciples to be even more fruitful, through pruning. Notice He wasn't concerned about "keeping them saved". We know this from an earlier verse; John 10:28 where He promises that those He gives (at the beginning of their faith) eternal life and they will never perish.
3. Jesus affirms the 11 remaining disciples saved status.
4. Jesus says believers must be in fellowship in order to bear much fruit. Apart from fellowship with Him, one can bear no fruit.
5. Again, Jesus repeats the principle that a believer must be in fellowship with Him in order to bear fruit.
6. Jesus warns of discipline (not hell as commonly assumed) for believers who are out of fellowship and fruitless.
7. Jesus promises that God answers the prayers of believers who are in fellowship.
8. Being in fellowship and bearing much fruit is to His Father's glory. And show that we are His disciples.
9. Jesus again affirms His love for believers and commands them to stay in fellowship.

Re: v.9, note that Jesus didn't command them to "stay in My hand". hint: John 10:28-29

I mean, did Jesus die on the cross for fellowship?

Since He told His disciples that He considered them friends, and said this:
John 15:15 - I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you.

 

[FreeGrace]

Doesn't matter.
I'm not interested int he Aorist tense.

It does matter. Every tense matters. And your disinterest in the aorist seems to be just a way to avoid what refutes your notions.

English if just fine to understand the bible.

If the Holy Spirit wrote the Bible in 20th Century English, it would be just fine. But He didn't, and the English doesn't do justice to the Greek in many areas. Which is why we need to study the original languages, by which we CAN understand what was meant.

BTW, Could you please show me how Acts 16:31 and Romans 10:10 doesn't say what it says?

I have no idea what you're trying to get at. Every verse says exactly what it says. In the Greek. The problem is when one prefers English over Greek WHEN the English misses the Greek meaning.

Both verses use the "dreaded" aorist tense for 'believe'. NOT the present tense, as the English does. Because there is no way to simply translate the aorist tense into the English. The aorist tense means a "simple occurrence", like a single event. Or a point in time when something occurred.

So, when the Holy Spirit used the aorist tense, the meaning is clear; one is saved from a point in time belief, which is contrary to the claim that one must continue to believe in order to continue to be saved.

I also trust all the warnings Jesus gave us to adhere to His commands more than I trust you.

Please just show me any verse where the warning is spelled out clearly to be hell.

Wonder why He would go to so much trouble?

He didn't. But He expects us to. Which is why Paul wrote this in 2 Tim 2:15 - Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.

The words in red is a single word in Greek and means "be diligent". We can't just casually read the English and expect to understand what the Holy Spirit wants us to understand. Can't do it by reading English.

What if we don't adhere to His commands?

Same thing that happens when any child of a responsible parent doesn't adhere to the parent's command. Heb 12

Do those who abadon God adhere?

No. Your point?

 

[gr8grace3]

If you believe in the Lord Jesus the Christ, you will be saved.

If you doubt whether your belief in Him, or the faith you received is real, you can know it is by the evidence of your love. Without love, then you have valid reason to doubt your belief and faith.

To answer your question - Jesus will save the unbeliever through faith, all they should do is believe.

And this love(agape) in Gal 5:6 will only be manifest through the Spirit...........we have to be saved and sealed with the Spirit, before it is even possible to have this virtue love. The love is based upon Him IN us.

 

[FreeGrace]

Here's the concept:

In Jesus is the life.
If we are in Jesus, we have the life.

So far, so good.

If we remove ourselves from Jesus we no longer have the light --

This is where all the derailing occurs. No one can "remove themselves" from Jesus.

Who in the human race is stronger than Jesus or the Father? No one. That's what Jesus said in Jn 10:28,29.

It's a faulty assumption to think that one can "remove themself" from Jesus. We are sealed IN HIM with the Holy Spirit.

There are NO verses that teach that anyone, including God Himself, can or will break that seal by removing the Holy Spirit.
There are NO verses that teach that we can remove ourselves from Him.

If all that were true, there would be clearly stated verses to that effect. But there aren't.

So what if we DON'T walk with Him in the light,
does His blood still cleanse us?
No.

No, but we stay IN HIM because of the mark God put on each believer, identifying us as His own possession. Eph 1:13,14. However, we're out of fellowship and under His heavy hand of discipline: Heb 10:31 - It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

 

[FreeGrace]

I politely requested this:
"Please explain what He "really" means in John 10:28."

What we have here from Hyper-grace doctrine is the hallmark of false doctrine: not rightly dividing the word of God.

I get, instead, insults. But no explanation.

The argument is being made that John 10:28 places no requirement for believing in order to have eternal life:

This is patently untrue. The point of Jesus' promise is that those who RECEIVE the gift of eternal life will never perish. Have you not yet even read the verse?????

"28and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand." (John 10:28 NASB)

This is a direct statement of eternal security. Those who receive the gift of eternal life will never perish.

If Jesus is correct (and He is), then those who have received eternal life CANNOT PERISH. It's that simple.

The false Hyper-grace argument is created by isolating the verse away from the whole counsel of the Bible, which Paul refers to as not rightly dividing the word of God. But for those who know the Bible we know that Jesus did indeed say that it is the person who believes that has eternal life and will never perish:

It is quite apparent that you haven't yet grasped anything about what I believe and post.

It would be helpful to first figure out what I've posted before going off on some odd tangent and making embarrassing and false claims about my view.

24“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life." (John 5:24 NASB)

This verse goes along with 10:28 because this verse establishes WHEN one receives the gift of eternal life. Jesus said those who believe HAVE eternal life. So we know that one receives eternal life WHEN they believe. That's at the beginning of their faith journey, or Christian life, of whatever one wants to describe it.

And those who believe, and HAVE eternal life, WILL NEVER PERISH.

All through this thread Hyper-grace doctrine has emphasized everything in the passage in an attempt to defend itself except the plain fact that Jesus says it is the one who believes that has eternal life, not the one who used to believe as Hyper-grace doctrine asserts.

10:28 tells us the whole story. Those who receive (by faith) eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH.

So, again, I politely request; explain what Jesus means in 10:28, since your view is contrary to the plain words of the verse and your view is that one who is saved can perish.

 

[FreeGrace]

Yes FG,

Here's why I prefer English.
I UNDERSTAND IT.

The sad fact is that you don't understand what the Holy Spirit wrote in Greek. Which the English doesn't translate well. Which is why we need to study lexicons and Greek grammar texts.

This is a good reason.

I trust the persons who translated the bible. They have all those initials after their names, which we don't have.

They all admit that translating Greek into English doesn't always communicate what's in the Greek.

Could you please EXPLAIN the aorist tense to me?
That would be nice.

Just did. A few posts ago.

 

[FreeGrace]

Mar 4:5
Other seed fell on rocky ground, where it did not have much soil, and immediately it sprang up, since it had no depth of soil. And when the sun rose, it was scorched, and since it had no root, it withered away.

Is a plant that "withers away" still alive?

I've seen many withered plants that were alive. What is your point?

Or better, what's the point of the parable?

 

[FreeGrace]

Checkmate.

Jesus promised that those who believe HAVE eternal life. John 5:24 They have it because He gave it to them.
Jesus promised that those He gives eternal life will never perish. John 10:28 Should be obvious that He gives eternal life the gift at the beginning of their faith journey; when they believed.

A real checkmate!! ;)

 

[Nathan]

I've seen many withered plants that were alive. What is your point?

Or better, what's the point of the parable?

Oh sure, just a withered plant still has life and wont die if it is watered.

The parable says the plant 'withered away'. That means died.

Point of the parable is a person who has no depth of good soil for the truth of God to grow deep, when faced with persecution, trials, and temptations, are apt to turn away from the truth - the truth that saves them. The truth of God dies within them. No life = no life.

 

[FreeGrace]

Yeah, tithing.
Let's talk tithing.
Do hyper grace believers tithe?
Let's hear from them.

There aren't any. The term is used very pejoratively to insult the view that God's grace keeps rebellious believers, even those who apostatize saved. Some just can't stand the thought.

To them, such an idea means "too much grace", hence; hyper-grace.

Can you imagine God having too much grace to express to the human race???

The bottom line for me is that those who peddle loss of salvation have created their false doctrine from negative emotions.

They have reacted to and rejected the idea that those who apostatize could stay saved. They have no plainly stated verses about losing salvation.

Yet, Jesus made very clear how one avoids perishing; by simply receiving eternal life. John 10:28.

 

[FreeGrace]

I'm having some difficulty understanding the difference.

OSAS says that once you're saved you can never "lose" your salvation. Your security is eternal.
Even if you stop believing in God or behaving as He would want, one is still saved.

Do you believe that those who have received eternal life will never perish?

 

[FreeGrace]

I believe in eternal security.

How can this be true when your clear view is that a saved person can end up in hell. That's NOT eternal security.

The correct term for your belief about staying saved as long as one keeps believing should be "self security". Keep on keeping on to stay saved. That's being your own savior.

But the difference between what I believe and what Hyper-grace OSAS says about it is the Bible says you have eternal security as long as you are believing.

Yep. In black and white.

 

[gr8grace3]

Jesus promised that those who believe HAVE eternal life. John 5:24 They have it because He gave it to them.
Jesus promised that those He gives eternal life will never perish. John 10:28 Should be obvious that He gives eternal life the gift at the beginning of their faith journey; when they believed.

A real checkmate!! ;)

 

[FreeGrace]

Calvinists say you CAN'T stop believing.
They say that if you do it means you were never saved to begin with.
THIS IS WRONG.

Absolutely wrong. Jesus clearly said the second soil "believed for a while" in Luke 8:13. And Paul was clear in 1 Tim 4:1 about some abandoning the faith.

Hyper Gracers believe faith is not necessary to be saved?

First, to be clear, the term here is a pejorative one, intending to insult. Can God's grace really be "too much"? Of course not. We need all the grace available. And God's grace IS more than enough. So we shouldn't demean grace by using this term.

Now, since I see a question mark here, I will answer the question with a resounding NO. Those who would make such a statement about grace oriented believers are either quite ignorant of what grace is, or what free grace theology is, or they are liars.

So, what IS necessary?
Belief in Jesus?
In what way?

By placing one's full trust (faith, belief) in the finished work of Jesus Christ in saving them. It's that simple. Not relying on anything or anyone else to save you.

Not relying on any continuing action on your part to maintain your salvation.

 

[FreeGrace]

If the blood of Christ apart from faith is what saved, then that would mean EVERYBODY is saved.

And, of course, that is totally false. Christ's death is said to purchase. His death purchased the gift of eternal life for everyone, and He gives that gift to those who believe in Him for it.

[QUOTESo are they saying it is God's GRACE that saves?[/QUOTE]
Eph 2:8 says so. And those of "free grace" theology LOVE John 3:16, Eph 2:8,9. We are saved by grace through faith.

 

[gr8grace3]

Not relying on any continuing action on your part to maintain your salvation.

That is what is so dangerous. If this thought or belief is somehow included in our initial faith............It is a faith that won't save.

God is precise in His Gospel. It is total trust in the Lord Jesus Christ that God requires from us in order to be saved.

 

[FreeGrace]

gr8grace3 said: ↑
Sir, how must I be saved?

And Jethro answered," For by faith working through love you shall be saved/justified."

This will save the unbeliever?

If you believe in the Lord Jesus the Christ, you will be saved.

Do you believe that those who receive eternal life will never perish?

 

[FreeGrace]

Oh sure, just a withered plant still has life and wont die if it is watered.

Thanks for agreeing with me.

What does "won't die" mean?

The parable says the plant 'withered away'. That means died.

Have you never seen a withered plant?

Point of the parable is a person who has no depth of good soil for the truth of God to grow deep, when faced with persecution, trials, and temptations, are apt to turn away from the truth - the truth that saves them. The truth of God dies within them. No life = no life.

The point of the parable is about producing fruit, or not. And the attitudes that don't produce fruit (soils #2,3), vs the attitude that does (soil #4).

 

[chessman]

Paul was clear in 1 Tim 4:1 about some abandoning the faith.

Yep.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old things have passed away (aorist); behold, new things have come (perfect).​

Can you believe that some people, this very day, are teaching that NOT every new creature of God's is good and some will be rejected even though they have been made holy (sanctified) by the word of God Himself. Talk about an apostasy from the faith, that takes the cake.

1 Timothy 4:4-5 because everything created by God is good and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thankfulness, for it is made holy by the word of God and prayer. ​

 

[Nathan]

gr8grace3 said: ↑
Sir, how must I be saved?

And Jethro answered," For by faith working through love you shall be saved/justified."

This will save the unbeliever?

Do you believe that those who receive eternal life will never perish?

Since they receive eternal life in Christ, then I believe those in Christ will never perish.

Do you believe there is eternal life apart from Christ?