Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works

[Rollo Tamasi]

Interesting post Jethro.

You know, I have a born again brother who tells me I'm probably sinning by arguing with my brethren.
He thinks we're supposed to be sharing God's love and not arguing about what he calls "petty" things.

I happen to think that the eternal salvation concept is very damaging because it doesn't allow Christianity to fully express itself.

It leaves out all the things WE are do to for GOD. They make it seem like there aren't any, when in fact that's mainly what Jesus spoke about.

If one just read the bible on his own with no preconceived notions, it would be obvious that God expects certain things from us. Behavior, works. To come up with eternal security, one has to read it with the idea already in their head and look for the verses that would "support" the idea.

This undoubtedly is what Calvin did. Luther agreed also. or V V.

Anyway, I sometimes wonder if it's worth all our trouble to argue about this??

Many people read the Bible without the aid of the Holy Spirit.
Just as many pastors preach a sermon without the aid of the Holy Spirit.
It can be noticeable in both cases.

If one reads without any preconceived notions, where does the Holy Spirit come in?
So yes, one can see no preconceived notions in people by what they say they believe and how they react to one who doesn't agree with them.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I would call traditional Calvinist OSAS petty. But not Hyper-grace OSAS. Leading believers in Jesus to hell through the stumbling block of Hyper-grace doctrine is a very serious matter. I'm going to speak the truth about it, hopefully in love. I've always wanted to serve in the kingdom and this is how I personally can do that. The people who see the truth and, as a result, stand firm to the end will be jewels in my crown of achievement. That's not a selfish thing. They themselves will be my reward for my labor in the building and field of God. Even though we Christians are for the most part crazy I'm zealous for the church anyway. I love the truth, I love the church. That's why I contend for the faith.


You won't wonder at the resurrection when you see the people you helped enter into the kingdom. On that Day it will all be worth it.

You talk about this hyper grace doctrine.
Who believes it?
What denominations?
Who on TV or the internet promotes this notion?
I don't recognize it from anywhere.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Actually, we are saved *through faith - not through the "non-meritorious action of believing".

Eph 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

The ridiculous notion that some come up with is that their 'act' of belief is what got them on the plane. As if a dead man can choose to do something. Whats even more ridiculous is the notion that someone can say, "I believed that I have a ticket for that plane ride, but I don't have to be on it right now - I have the ticket".

The person on the plane ride got on because they were put on by God. If that person jumps out of the plane, because they chose to trust in their own parachute, then its their choice.

You seem to have just expressed yourself on both sides of the debate.

 

[Nathan]

You seem to have just expressed yourself on both sides of the debate.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Jde 1:3-4
Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints. For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

Here was a man who started writing a letter to talk about the common(shared things) of salvation. I am sure it would have been a beautiful letter, full of wonderful things.

Then, he see's the issue at hand, and switches thoughts. He writes to tell others to contend for the faith. That is a very strong action word, that pulls a person from 'defense' mode into 'offense' mode.

We have to go into offense mode because just defending the faith has allowed 'certain people' to creep in. What I find amazing is his description of them. What I find interesting is the placement of this letter.

What do you mean the placement of the letter?
It was last because it was the smallest of the letters.

 

[GodsGrace]

Many people read the Bible without the aid of the Holy Spirit.
Just as many pastors preach a sermon without the aid of the Holy Spirit.
It can be noticeable in both cases.

If one reads without any preconceived notions, where does the Holy Spirit come in?
So yes, one can see no preconceived notions in people by what they say they believe and how they react to one who doesn't agree with them.

Maybe we react to certain beliefs of ours because we feel they're so important.

Do you think there's a doctrine that we debate here that is very important to you?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Maybe we react to certain beliefs of ours because we feel they're so important.

Do you think there's a doctrine that we debate here that is very important to you?

Yeah, tithing.
Let's talk tithing.
Do hyper grace believers tithe?
Let's hear from them.

 

[GodsGrace]

I would call traditional Calvinist OSAS petty. But not Hyper-grace OSAS. Leading believers in Jesus to hell through the stumbling block of Hyper-grace doctrine is a very serious matter. I'm going to speak the truth about it, hopefully in love. I've always wanted to serve in the kingdom and this is how I personally can do that. The people who see the truth and, as a result, stand firm to the end will be jewels in my crown of achievement. That's not a selfish thing. They themselves will be my reward for my labor in the building and field of God. Even though we Christians are for the most part crazy I'm zealous for the church anyway. I love the truth, I love the church. That's why I contend for the faith.


You won't wonder at the resurrection when you see the people you helped enter into the kingdom. On that Day it will all be worth it.

I'm having some difficulty understanding the difference.

OSAS says that once you're saved you can never "lose" your salvation. Your security is eternal.
Even if you stop believing in God or behaving as He would want, one is still saved.

Let's make clear that salvation is not lost by sinning. We all sin - however we want to understand that.
It happens when we abandon, or forsake, God and His Son and deny them as we did before we were born again.

Hyper OSAS says the same thing. We are saved ONLY by believing. Nothing to do. In fact God gets upset if we even ask for forgiveness because He has already forgiven all sin, past, present and future. These believers also feel they can never lose their salvation, no matter what.

Although they are told that this belief is not a license to sin (I've heard Prince say this many times), in effect, it is what it does.

Both belittle Jesus' words. He spent much time talking about how we are to keep His commandments.

There's a thin red line here that I don't see. However, I don't think it's so important for me to see it since I disagree with both concepts.

I do believe that if one just reads Jesus' words that person would realize that Jesus does DEMAND action from us.
The bible talks of the wide path and the narrow path,
of the cutting off of unfruitfull branches,
of the dividing of the good persons and the evil persons,
etc.

I find it difficult to understand how this could be overlooked.

We are saved by Justification.
Ephesians 2:8

We are KEPT SAVED by Sanctification.
A life pleasing to God.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yeah, tithing.
Let's talk tithing.
Do hyper grace believers tithe?
Let's hear from them.

I do hear their pastors asking for money. I'm not sure it's tithing.

But whether or not one tithes has nothing to do with their salvation.
I'm more interested in ideas that could make one lose, or forsake, their salvation.

Of course, if one believes in eternal security, he will not be worried about this.

 

[Nathan]

What do you mean the placement of the letter?
It was last because it was the smallest of the letters.

I mean where its located is all. I just find it interesting.

 

[GodsGrace]

You talk about this hyper grace doctrine.
Who believes it?
What denominations?
Who on TV or the internet promotes this notion?
I don't recognize it from anywhere.

Joseph Prince
Cheflo Dollar

So many, I can't think of their names.

 

[GodsGrace]

Jde 1:3-4
Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints. For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

Here was a man who started writing a letter to talk about the common(shared things) of salvation. I am sure it would have been a beautiful letter, full of wonderful things.

Then, he see's the issue at hand, and switches thoughts. He writes to tell others to contend for the faith. That is a very strong action word, that pulls a person from 'defense' mode into 'offense' mode.

We have to go into offense mode because just defending the faith has allowed 'certain people' to creep in. What I find amazing is his description of them. What I find interesting is the placement of this letter.

Jude. The last book before Revelation. To remind us of all that Jesus said.
Paul, as many do not like to admit, also exhorts us to Holy lives. They love quoting the first chapters of Romans, but never quote the last few because they speak of "works". Works. Whatever we do for God.

Now, of course, the argument for Jude would be that he's not talking about born again believers.
But it is talking about HOW God wants us to llve.
Bad news for the Hyper Grace movement...

"Stay always within the boundaries where God's love can reach and bless you" !!
Jude 1:21

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Gal 5:6 is not saying, "have faith expressing itself through love and you shall be saved."

Galatians 5:6 NASB is saying faith is what counts towards justification. And that the faith that counts towards justification is the faith that loves. But Hyper-grace OSAS says faith does NOT count toward justification but only the blood of Christ apart from faith does, which they say is why you don't have to continue in faith to be saved. But the passage plainly says it is indeed faith that counts towards justification, and that the faith that counts towards justification is the faith that loves. But Hyper-grace insists the absence of faith altogether, and which does not love but is disobedient and unbelieving, justifies too. That's in complete and utter contradiction to what Paul taught:

"2Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.3And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. 4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. 6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything (in context--toward justification), but faith working through love." (Galatians 5:2-6 NASB parenthesis mine)

You're in checkmate. That means you have no where to move, and you can't stay where you're at. You said faith does not count toward salvation, and if it did that would mean you can lose your salvation if you stop believing. Well, I showed you where the Bible does say faith counts towards justification, therefore, by your own words salvation can be lost if you stop believing.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

if one believes in eternal security

I believe in eternal security. But the difference between what I believe and what Hyper-grace OSAS says about it is the Bible says you have eternal security as long as you are believing. And that is what traditional Calvinist OSAS says too. Calvinist believe the true believer will never stop believing and, therefore, will always be saved. I don't see any detriment in a person believing that particular doctrine. At least they defend the plain fact in the Bible that you have to continue to believe to be saved. The continuance of your faith being the evidence that you are indeed truly saved and have eternal life.

 

[GodsGrace]

I believe in eternal security. But the difference between what I believe and what Hyper-grace OSAS says about it is the Bible says you have eternal security as long as you are believing. And that is what traditional Calvinist OSAS says too. Calvinist believe the true believer will never stop believing and, therefore, will always be saved. I don't see any detriment in a person believing that particular doctrine. At least they defend the plain fact in the Bible that you have to continue to believe to be saved. The continuance of your faith being the evidence that you are indeed truly saved and have eternal life.

Calvinists say you CAN'T stop believing.
They say that if you do it means you were never saved to begin with.
THIS IS WRONG.

Hyper Gracers believe faith is not necessary to be saved?
I don't believe I've understood this.

So, what IS necessary?
Belief in Jesus?
In what way?

 

[GodsGrace]

Galatians 5:6 NASB is saying faith is what counts towards justification. And that the faith that counts towards justification is the faith that loves. But Hyper-grace OSAS says faith does NOT count toward justification but only the blood of Christ apart from faith does, which they say is why you don't have to continue in faith to be saved. But the passage plainly says it is indeed faith that counts towards justification, and that the faith that counts towards justification is the faith that loves. But Hyper-grace insists the absence of faith altogether, and which does not love but is disobedient and unbelieving, justifies too. That's in complete and utter contradiction to what Paul taught:

"2Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.3And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. 4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. 6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything (in context--toward justification), but faith working through love." (Galatians 5:2-6 NASB parenthesis mine)

You're in checkmate. That means you have no where to move, and you can't stay where you're at. You said faith does not count toward salvation, and if it did that would mean you can lose your salvation if you stop believing. Well, I showed you where the Bible does say faith counts towards justification, therefore, by your own words salvation can be lost if you stop believing.

If the blood of Christ apart from faith is what saved, then that would mean EVERYBODY is saved.
So are they saying it is God's GRACE that saves?

 

[gr8grace3]

Galatians 5:6 NASB is saying faith is what counts towards justification. And that the faith that counts towards justification is the faith that loves. But Hyper-grace OSAS says faith does NOT count toward justification but only the blood of Christ apart from faith does, which they say is why you don't have to continue in faith to be saved. But the passage plainly says it is indeed faith that counts towards justification, and that the faith that counts towards justification is the faith that loves. But Hyper-grace insists the absence of faith altogether, and which does not love but is disobedient and unbelieving, justifies too. That's in complete and utter contradiction to what Paul taught:

"2Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.3And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. 4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. 6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything (in context--toward justification), but faith working through love." (Galatians 5:2-6 NASB parenthesis mine)

You're in checkmate. That means you have no where to move, and you can't stay where you're at. You said faith does not count toward salvation, and if it did that would mean you can lose your salvation if you stop believing. Well, I showed you where the Bible does say faith counts towards justification, therefore, by your own words salvation can be lost if you stop believing.

Sir, how must I be saved?

And Jethro answered," For by faith working through love you shall be saved/justified."

This will save the unbeliever?

 

[Nathan]

I believe in eternal security. But the difference between what I believe and what Hyper-grace OSAS says about it is the Bible says you have eternal security as long as you are believing. And that is what traditional Calvinist OSAS says too. Calvinist believe the true believer will never stop believing and, therefore, will always be saved. I don't see any detriment in a person believing that particular doctrine. At least they defend the plain fact in the Bible that you have to continue to believe to be saved. The continuance of your faith being the evidence that you are indeed truly saved and have eternal life.

Yea, I've always thought I was more in common with the calvin side than the armenian side.

However, I have an issue with the Calvin side in that it 'tricks' people into thinking that if you are one of the ones who will be saved, then at some point you will believe. So, people walk around disregarding the drawing of the Spirit thinking they will always have that call, and at some point in the future be unable to not come to Christ.

Plus, they do believe in OSAS, just not in the same manner as hyper grace - because they think that sin will not ultimately lead them away from Christ, because some point in the future they will return.

 

[Nathan]

Sir, how must I be saved?

And Jethro answered," For by faith working through love you shall be saved/justified."

This will save the unbeliever?

If you believe in the Lord Jesus the Christ, you will be saved.

If you doubt whether your belief in Him, or the faith you received is real, you can know it is by the evidence of your love. Without love, then you have valid reason to doubt your belief and faith.

To answer your question - Jesus will save the unbeliever through faith, all they should do is believe.

 

[chessman]

The people who see the truth and, as a result, stand firm to the end will be jewels in my crown of achievement.

What "crown of achievement"? What Scripture says people you stop from stumbling are jewels in your 'crown of achievement'??? It ain't 1 Thess 2:20!

Jude 1:24-25 Now to the one who is able to protect you from stumbling and make you to stand before his glory blameless with exultation, to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, power, and authority before all time and now and for all eternity. Amen.
​

What makes you think that you are the one who is able to protect people from stumbling from the truth thus they become jewels in your "crown of achievement"? Sounds boastful to me.
How's that working out for you in the home?

1 Corinthians 9:24 Do you not know that those who run in the stadium all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win.
​

Are you that one who receives the prize or is Jesus Christ the one and only One who does?

1 Peter 4:11 If anyone speaks, let it be as the oracles of God; if anyone serves, let it be as by the strength that God provides, so that in all things God will be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom is the glory and the power forever and ever. Amen.
​

So you are expecting jewels in your 'crown of achievement' even though it is God who will be glorified in "all things" through Jesus Christ.
Sounds like a hyper-self-glorification teaching heaped upon yourself to me.

2 Peter 1:2-3 May grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, because his divine power has bestowed on us all things that are necessary for life and godliness, through the knowledge of the one who called us by his own glory and excellence of character, ​

God's divine power through Jesus Christ has (past tensed) bestowed on us "all things that are necessary for life".
No achievement by Jethro Bodine is required.

Your 'crown of achievement' filled with jewels (who are people you kept from stumbling versus God's bestowing and divine power giving people all they need), pfff. Where'd you come up with that idea???

1 Thessalonians 2:19-20 For who is our hope [1] or joy [2] or crown of boasting [3]? Is it not even you [1,2], in the presence of our Lord Jesus [3]at his coming? For you are our glory [1] and joy [2].

______???______ [3]
​

Good questons:

[1]. Who is our "hope"? You are (see v17-18)

1680 elpís (from elpō, "to anticipate, welcome") – properly, expectation of what is sure (certain); hope

[2]. Who is our "joy"? You are! (See v20)

Cognate: 5479 xará (another feminine noun from the root xar-, "extend favor, lean towards, be favorably disposed") – properly, the awareness (of God's) grace, favor; joy ("grace recognized").

[3]. Who is our "crown of boasting/achievement"?

A. The prsence of Our Lord Jesus (see v19 "in the presence of our Lord Jesus")

Or

B. You are. (See _???)

V 20 does NOT say you are our 'crown of achievement'.


Cognate: 2746 kaúxēsis (a feminine noun) – boasting, which can either be in the "achievements" of self (negatively) [A] or about God's grace (positively) .

http://biblehub.com/greek/2746.htm