Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works

[GodsGrace]

It does matter. Every tense matters. And your disinterest in the aorist seems to be just a way to avoid what refutes your notions.


If the Holy Spirit wrote the Bible in 20th Century English, it would be just fine. But He didn't, and the English doesn't do justice to the Greek in many areas. Which is why we need to study the original languages, by which we CAN understand what was meant.


I have no idea what you're trying to get at. Every verse says exactly what it says. In the Greek. The problem is when one prefers English over Greek WHEN the English misses the Greek meaning.

Both verses use the "dreaded" aorist tense for 'believe'. NOT the present tense, as the English does. Because there is no way to simply translate the aorist tense into the English. The aorist tense means a "simple occurrence", like a single event. Or a point in time when something occurred.

So, when the Holy Spirit used the aorist tense, the meaning is clear; one is saved from a point in time belief, which is contrary to the claim that one must continue to believe in order to continue to be saved.


Please just show me any verse where the warning is spelled out clearly to be hell.


He didn't. But He expects us to. Which is why Paul wrote this in 2 Tim 2:15 - Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.

The words in red is a single word in Greek and means "be diligent". We can't just casually read the English and expect to understand what the Holy Spirit wants us to understand. Can't do it by reading English.


Same thing that happens when any child of a responsible parent doesn't adhere to the parent's command. Heb 12


No. Your point?

You mean to tell me that if a person doesn't know Greek, he won't understand the bible?

Do you also know Aramaic and Hebrew? I sure hope so because the O.T. was written in Hebrew which is very poetic and loses a lot when translated into English, and some small portions of the N.T. were written in Aramaic. Which my friend knows both BTW.

And as to Jesus' specific warnings...about ending up in hell.

Mathew 4:7 (which you're doing BTW)
Mathew 5:20
Mathew 5:22
Mathew 5:29
Mathew 5:30
Mathew 6:13, 15 (what are the consequences of following the evil one and not being forgiven?)
Mathew 6:20-21
Mathew 6:24 (what happens when you don't serve God?)
Mathew 7:2 (did Jesus say, just believe in Me? No. He said we will be judged)
Mathew 7:12 (this is for you, personally)
Mathew 7:13
Mathew 7:19
Mathew 7:21
Mathew 7:23 (where do you suppose they're headed?)

Need I go on?

 

[gr8grace3]

WE WOULD ALL DO WELL TO LEARN AND LISTEN TO WHAT THE NEW TESTAMENT TELLS US.

Amen.The OT also.

Which is not the same as what FreeGrace "teaches".

Yes it is.

 

[GodsGrace]

They heard the word of truth, the gospel, and they believed in him. Of course it happened when they heard the gospel.

Just because it happened at a point in time, it does not mean 'from a simple occurrence' as if believing is a simple occurrence or a point in time action.
Paul said they were sealed in Christ with the promised Holy Spirit, that is to say, the Spirit sealed them in Christ. So what can we say? Those who possess the Spirit are sealed in Christ.

But the point is there is no such thing as a simple one time occurrence of belief.



The Holy Spirit is our security.

You're right MarkT.

We are sealed IN CHRIST with the Holy Spirit.

NO CHRIST....NO HOLY SPIRIT....NO SEALING.

The sealing is used as support for a doctrine that does not even exist.

 

[Nathan]

Amen.The OT also.



Yes it is.

You guys related?

 

[GodsGrace]

Absolutely wrong. Jesus clearly said the second soil "believed for a while" in Luke 8:13. And Paul was clear in 1 Tim 4:1 about some abandoning the faith.


First, to be clear, the term here is a pejorative one, intending to insult. Can God's grace really be "too much"? Of course not. We need all the grace available. And God's grace IS more than enough. So we shouldn't demean grace by using this term.

Now, since I see a question mark here, I will answer the question with a resounding NO. Those who would make such a statement about grace oriented believers are either quite ignorant of what grace is, or what free grace theology is, or they are liars.


By placing one's full trust (faith, belief) in the finished work of Jesus Christ in saving them. It's that simple. Not relying on anything or anyone else to save you.

Not relying on any continuing action on your part to maintain your salvation.

What is sanctification?

 

[GodsGrace]

It does matter. Every tense matters. And your disinterest in the aorist seems to be just a way to avoid what refutes your notions.


If the Holy Spirit wrote the Bible in 20th Century English, it would be just fine. But He didn't, and the English doesn't do justice to the Greek in many areas. Which is why we need to study the original languages, by which we CAN understand what was meant.


I have no idea what you're trying to get at. Every verse says exactly what it says. In the Greek. The problem is when one prefers English over Greek WHEN the English misses the Greek meaning.

Both verses use the "dreaded" aorist tense for 'believe'. NOT the present tense, as the English does. Because there is no way to simply translate the aorist tense into the English. The aorist tense means a "simple occurrence", like a single event. Or a point in time when something occurred.

So, when the Holy Spirit used the aorist tense, the meaning is clear; one is saved from a point in time belief, which is contrary to the claim that one must continue to believe in order to continue to be saved.


Please just show me any verse where the warning is spelled out clearly to be hell.


He didn't. But He expects us to. Which is why Paul wrote this in 2 Tim 2:15 - Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.

The words in red is a single word in Greek and means "be diligent". We can't just casually read the English and expect to understand what the Holy Spirit wants us to understand. Can't do it by reading English.


Same thing that happens when any child of a responsible parent doesn't adhere to the parent's command. Heb 12


No. Your point?

Oooops.

I forgot to mention about your red lettering above.
You said that DO YOUR BEST is only one word in Greek that means DILIGENT.

What does diligent mean?

 

[MarkT]

So God is a farmer, huh?? It seems the comprehension problem is not on my side at all.

God is the Almighty, Omnipotent, Omnipresent and Omniscient Creator of the universe. He's not a farmer. He did create farming. For humans to do. Which started with Adam.

For the purpose of instruction, God is the vinedresser. You have to take every word and eat it.

 

[Nathan]

Nathan,

It seems to me that the Greek is very well understood.
The problem seems to be with the English!

Heavens to Betsy! Nothing means what it seems to mean.
Words are exchanged for other words.
Withered away means still alive.
Believe means you believed at some point in time and it goes on forever. The famous aorist tense. From some grammar book.

Maybe we should all learn Koine Greek and start all over??
You know, REALLY learn it, not just from google or one grammar book...

Whadaya think?

I'm beginning to see your dislike for Greek.....:yes

I'm gonna guess, if we all learned it, then we would still disagree me thinks. I used to think that reason was a thing we all could come around.

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm beginning to see your dislike for Greek.....:yes

I'm gonna guess, if we all learned it, then we would still disagree me thinks. I used to think that reason was a thing we all could come around.

LOL

I don't dislike it. I know its value.
I just hate when people use it to try and make something sound like something else and they make Koine Greek sound so simple when it really isn't. The aorist tense is complicated and we shouldn't be dealing with it.

The bible is very clear in any language. I have a few Italian ones too.
They all say THE SAME THING!! The SAME IDEAS!!

No need for Greek.

God is a spirit. He's not a language professor.

Hey Nathan...
Know what time it is here?
4:32 a.m.
I can't sleep!!

Tomorrow...

 

[Nathan]

LOL

I don't dislike it. I know its value.
I just hate when people use it to try and make something sound like something else and they make Koine Greek sound so simple when it really isn't. The aorist tense is complicated and we shouldn't be dealing with it.

The bible is very clear in any language. I have a few Italian ones too.
They all say THE SAME THING!! The SAME IDEAS!!

No need for Greek.

God is a spirit. He's not a language professor.

Hey Nathan...
Know what time it is here?
4:32 a.m.
I can't sleep!!

Tomorrow...

Good grief woman! Go to sleep already!

 

[GodsGrace]

Good grief woman! Go to sleep already!

OK
OK
Good Night !!

 

[FreeGrace]

He does give us eternal life in Him. If we leave Him, we leave eternal life, because it is only in Him we have it.

What hasn't been shown, much less proven from Scripture, is that we can leave the sealing with the Holy Spirit.

Unless you think we do something to have it apart from Him?

Why would I think that? Eph 1:13,14 is very clear about eternal security and the FACT that our inheritance is guaranteed by the sealing with the Holy Spirit. And the FACT that this sealing is IN HIM.

Therefore, no one who has believed can be out of Him. Period.

Can we do something to receive eternal life, then leave Him, and retain the eternal life apart from Him?

We must believe in order to receive eternal life. John 3;15,16, 36, 5:24, 6:40, 47, 11:25-26.
We cannot leave Him, as in be out of Him. We are sealed IN HIM with the Holy Spirit.

Is your view a suggestion that anyone is stronger than the Holy Spirit and can break this seal?????

Remember the promise of Jesus: those who receive eternal life will never perish, in Jn 10:28.

If your view were correct, He would have said this: "I give them eternal life, and as long as they remain/abide/stay in Me, they will never perish."

Guess what!? He never said that. No conditions after receiving eternal life. That's eternal security.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I get tons of edification from Him. He tells the truth of Gods word. We don't have to be personable and "nice" to edify Brothers and Sisters.

If we WANT the truth God gives it to us. And FreeGrace is a perfect example. God has him here to give us the truth IF we want it.

I have a great pastor teacher, and if I wasn't sitting under him to learn.......I would not even hesitate to sit under FreeGrace.

Geesh, just look at all the posts where he is literally RUN into the ground personally..........and can you find a post where he defends his person?

He is teaching truth. And obviously he isn't doing it for himself.......I haven't seen someone take the beatings he has taken and still keep on ticken if he was doing it for his benefit.

We would all do WELL to listen and learn from him.

It's good to see that each of you have a friend.
Praise the Lord.!

 

[FreeGrace]

Listen to me FG,

OK

I really don't wish to argue this with you.

Really?

You have an attitude that is difficult to contend with.

No, I have the truth that I explain thoroughly that seems to be "difficult to contend with". I've shown the very clear verses on eternal security, and they all get ignored. And when I ask other posters to explain how they teach something (anything) other than eternal security, no one has taken me up on this. Why is that? Because no one CAN show how any of the verses don't teach eternal security.

otoh, I can and have explained how the verses used to teach loss of salvation are teaching something else. And the "something else" are principles found in Scripture in other verses. So my view is based solidly on the Bible, but those who aren't interested in the verses I have quoted are refuted by them and that is not comfortable for them. That is why all the push back. People don't like to be shown to be wrong. But that is just tough. That's what Paul told Titus to do when false doctrine raises is ugly head. Titus 1:13This saying is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, so that they will be sound in the faith

I don't rebuke anyone. I just state the truth, which seems to be enough to irritate a lot of people who believe something different.

You shouldn't be demeaning about persons you don't even know.

How does the truth demean another? Please clarify and provide at least 1 example.

My friend happens to be a theologian who knows Koine Greek and has taught it.
He knows at least 6 languages that I can think of off hand.

Do you think I'm going to believe what YOU know about Koine Greek over what HE KNOWS?

My understanding of the Greek comes from Greek lexicons and grammar texts. But it seems he's come to a different conclusion than I have. Anyone who claims verb tenses aren't important cannot be taken seriously, imho.

I asked you about a week ago to post something about koine greek, maybe form the internet or from some book you've studied.
Did you do it ? NO!

I don't recall such a request. If you remember what it was, just post it again.

Because it's not as simple as you make it out to be.

I never said Greek was simple.

All I'll say is that you cannot take verses out of the N.T. and make doctrine out of them.

I haven't, even though it seems you think so. What I have done is point out your error about the "present tense". Which seems to bother you.

The N.T. is an entire thought, a complete thought.

Of course it is. Which is why the notion of loss of salvation is impossible, because of the very clear verses about eternal security.

The OSNAS view must scramble and search among parables, figures of speech, etc in order to try to defend their view, all the while seemingly ignoring what Jesus said in very plain language: "I give them eternal life, and they will never perish." Jn 10:28

For some inexpicable reason, this verse just hasn't sunk in to such people. Jesus made clear that the result of receiving eternal life is to never perish. But many seem not to believe that, because they believe that one who has been given eternal life could still end up in the lake of fire. Which directly contradicts what Jesus promised.

Why is the bible such a great book?

Because the Holy Spirit wrote it through human authors.

Because it was written over the time span of about 1,500 years and is in complete harmony with itself.

Because the Holy Spirit wrote it through human authors.

You are attempting to break that harmony.

The only "harmony" I've broken is by showing that loss of salvation is not possible.

Please learn about Justification and Sanctification.

I already know what they are. Do you? How many kinds of 'sanctification' are you aware of in the Bible?

If you understand Sanctification you must also understand that there's no such concept as eternal security.

It's obvious to me that this statement reflects a woeful lack of understanding about either kind of sancficiation.

It is eternal only for as long as you have faith, believe and live within the commandments JESUS left us with.

And...you've got no verses that support this claim. otoh, I have given a clear promise from Jesus about eternal security.

Not the commandments Calvin or Luther left us with.

I'm not interested in commandments from mere men.

 

[FreeGrace]

WE WOULD ALL DO WELL TO LEARN AND LISTEN TO WHAT THE NEW TESTAMENT TELLS US.

Which is not the same as what FreeGrace "teaches".

I challenge you to prove your claim here.

btw, I do agree with your first statement.

 

[Nathan]

What hasn't been shown, much less proven from Scripture, is that we can leave the sealing with the Holy Spirit.


Why would I think that? Eph 1:13,14 is very clear about eternal security and the FACT that our inheritance is guaranteed by the sealing with the Holy Spirit. And the FACT that this sealing is IN HIM.

Therefore, no one who has believed can be out of Him. Period.


We must believe in order to receive eternal life. John 3;15,16, 36, 5:24, 6:40, 47, 11:25-26.
We cannot leave Him, as in be out of Him. We are sealed IN HIM with the Holy Spirit.

Is your view a suggestion that anyone is stronger than the Holy Spirit and can break this seal?????

Remember the promise of Jesus: those who receive eternal life will never perish, in Jn 10:28.

If your view were correct, He would have said this: "I give them eternal life, and as long as they remain/abide/stay in Me, they will never perish."

Guess what!? He never said that. No conditions after receiving eternal life. That's eternal security.

Why it has not been "proven" to you that we can leave the sealing with the Holy Spirit, is because you misunderstand what the seal is. It is not a lid that someone puts on a jar.

Christ in us, the Spirit of God, is the seal. If we leave Christ, we leave the seal. The seal was just used as a metaphor to help us understand that God puts His approval/authority on us because of His Spirit in us. We cannot turn the 'seal' into something it is not.

We know for a fact that many will turn away from Christ. We know they do it for a variety of reasons, but it all boils down to self desire over the leading of the Spirit.

Rom 8:12-14
So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

The promise of eternal life is only for those in Christ. You cannot be apart from Christ and have eternal life. You FreeGrace keep trying to make others prove something to you, and when asked in return you shove it off your plate. Prove that you can retain eternal life if you turn from Christ, prove that there is another way of having eternal life apart from Christ. I assure you, there is no proof - because its a lie.

1Jo 5:11-12
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

Now, are you going to say that someone who does not have the Son has life?

 

[FreeGrace]

They heard the word of truth, the gospel, and they believed in him. Of course it happened when they heard the gospel.

Just because it happened at a point in time, it does not mean 'from a simple occurrence' as if believing is a simple occurrence or a point in time action.
Paul said they were sealed in Christ with the promised Holy Spirit, that is to say, the Spirit sealed them in Christ. So what can we say? Those who possess the Spirit are sealed in Christ.

But the point is there is no such thing as a simple one time occurrence of belief.

That's what the aorist tense means. It speaks about an action that occurred in a point in time. There is no time duration concept with the aorist tense.

Like a snapshot vs a video. Aorist is the snapshot, and the present tense is a video.

The Holy Spirit is our security.

Which is why we have eternal security.

 

[FreeGrace]

You mean to tell me that if a person doesn't know Greek, he won't understand the bible?

No, I don't mean that at all. The person who is diligent and studies (2 Tim 2:15) will understand the Bible better than if he/she isn't diligent and studies.

Do you also know Aramaic and Hebrew? I sure hope so because the O.T. was written in Hebrew which is very poetic and loses a lot when translated into English, and some small portions of the N.T. were written in Aramaic. Which my friend knows both BTW.

I don't know either one.

And as to Jesus' specific warnings...about ending up in hell.

Mathew 4:7 (which you're doing BTW)
Mathew 5:20
Mathew 5:22
Mathew 5:29
Mathew 5:30
Mathew 6:13, 15 (what are the consequences of following the evil one and not being forgiven?)
Mathew 6:20-21
Mathew 6:24 (what happens when you don't serve God?)
Mathew 7:2 (did Jesus say, just believe in Me? No. He said we will be judged)
Mathew 7:12 (this is for you, personally)
Mathew 7:13
Mathew 7:19
Mathew 7:21
Mathew 7:23 (where do you suppose they're headed?)

Need I go on?

lol. Don't bother. I know and believe the promise Jesus made to those He gives eternal life. They will never perish.

Do you really believe that any of the verses on your list mean something that goes against what Jesus promised??

Rather, every single verse has to mean something else than losing salvation. None can mean losing salvation. Or Jesus was just kidding, or worse, lying about it.

 

[FreeGrace]

You're right MarkT.

We are sealed IN CHRIST with the Holy Spirit.

NO CHRIST....NO HOLY SPIRIT....NO SEALING.

The sealing is used as support for a doctrine that does not even exist.

Where does the Bible teach that one who has believed can lose the Holy Spirit, lose the sealing, or lose salvation? Huh?

 

[Nathan]

You've not proven your claim, but just keep repeating it.


Please explain what this has to do with the parable about withered plants??? I see nothing.


They don't.


I oppose faulty understanding of verses.


I'm not interested in finding verses that meet your strict demands on wording. You've tried to make a mountain out of a molehill in that parable. Let it go. The point of the parable is about producing fruit, and what gets in the way of doing so. It's all about the heart attitude.

But anyone is free to think it is about salvation.

Ah, I almost feel like I am in middle school. I have not proven that withered away means there is no life, is kind of like proving to you that the clouds are in the sky. How do you "prove" something that is staring you right in the face?

xēraínō, xay-rah'-ee-no; from G3584; to desiccate; by implication, to shrivel, to mature:—dry up, pine away, be ripe, wither (away).

When something "dries up" there is no life in it. If a plant is absent from moisture, it is dead. You are trying to remove the "away" portion of the verse, while that is the exact word that stares you in the face as proof of it being dead.

The parable is about fruit. Here is the point. A dead plant cannot produce good fruit. A person in Christ, a person with eternal life, will produce good fruit. There are no iffs, ands, or buts about it. You cannot have eternal life living in you and not produce good fruit.

Mat 3:7-10
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bear fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father,’ for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham. Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees. Every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

Even in that day there were some who thought that they could have life by something they did or were.