Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works

[GodsGrace]

Was Jesus serious when He promised those He gives eternal life will never perish in John 10:28?

Just curious.

As soon as you tell me what SANCTIFICATION is.

Thanks.

 

[Nathan]

So there's nothing we can do, or fail to do that changes our eternal destiny, for any reason.


No, He doesn't 'give' us His life, He gives us His life. There's no quote marks around what He gives to believers.


Then this directly means that Jesus' promise in Jn 10:28 can be broken. How can anyone live with that?

To not perish is based SOLELY on receiving the gift of eternal life. Jesus said so.

It does not mean Jesus promise is broken at all. Jesus said the life He gives is in Himself - He never promised life apart from Himself. So if a person chooses to leave Him, it is their choice and He is not breaking His promise at all.

The only way someone can believe that He is breaking His promise is if they believe they can possess eternal life apart from Christ, based on something they did. If you think He takes something away from you, then you believe you have earned it. No one who looks at eternal life as a free gift from God - in Christ alone - is going to feel like God took something away from them if they chose to leave it behind.

1Jo 2:1-6
My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.

Its not about what you have did or done, its about what He did and does - its about being in Him.

 

[Nathan]

I've already explained why not. There are no verses that say that a sealed person IN HIM can be unsealed FROM HIM.

Are there any? Please share, if there are. Otherwise, you have no point.


Eph 1:13,14, 4:30, and 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5 pretty much say the sealing is a guarantee of our inheritance for the day of redemption.

Further, where does it say that those who fall away are NOT SEALED? That is the issue that your side cannot prove.


Your verses do not support your claim, although I understand that you think they do. The Matt 24 verse is specific to the Tribulation, so has no relevance to general life for everyone. And you've not proved that "saved" means eternal soul salvation. That is a faulty default in many verses where we find "save".

And there is nothing in Hebrews that says anyone can lose salvation for any reason. Does.not.exist.

Matthew 24 has everything to do about now, and then. Are you actually going to argue that being 'saved' is not talking about salvation?

I notice you keep asserting your stance, but reject the ability to show where someone who leaves Christ is still saved? Where is your proof of this in the Bible?

Heb 3:12-15
Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end. As it is said,
“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”

 

[Nathan]

OK. Since Jesus DID do it ALL, then how can anyone lose what He obtained?

That's basically implying that one's actions "outdo" what Jesus did. Or trump what He did.

If I am standing here, offering you food and water for the rest of your life, money to pay for everything you need - and you walk away from it - does that mean you 'outdo' what I was doing? Does that mean you just 'trumped' me?

Or does it mean you reject what I am offering you, and you chose not to accept it?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Matthew 24 has everything to do about now, and then. Are you actually going to argue that being 'saved' is not talking about salvation?

I notice you keep asserting your stance, but reject the ability to show where someone who leaves Christ is still saved? Where is your proof of this in the Bible?

Heb 3:12-15
Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end. As it is said,
“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”

Who leaves Christ?
No one if they belong to him.

 

[Nathan]

Who leaves Christ?
No one if they belong to him.

By definition, the person who turns away from Him is the one who leaves Him.

It is mind boggling to think that someone would turn away from Him, but we know they do - and it is prophesied that there will be an enormous turning from Him.

2Th 2:3
Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction

You cannot 'rebel' against something/someone you do not belong to.

For example, we would not say that the rebels in other countries are rebelling against the United States.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Nathan, you are getting things mixed up.
2 Thessalonians 2:3 is a direct reference to 1 John 3:7.
To put it in perspective, here's 1 John 3:7-10;
" Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8 The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. 9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. 10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister."

 

[GodsGrace]

Nathan, you are getting things mixed up.
2 Thessalonians 2:3 is a direct reference to 1 John 3:7.
To put it in perspective, here's 1 John 3:7-10;
" Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8 The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. 9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. 10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister."

Allen,

If Paul is warning the Thessalonians not to be led astray....

Doesn't this mean that it's possible to be led astray?
Why would he warn them unless it was possible?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

To not perish is based SOLELY on receiving the gift of eternal life. Jesus said so.

You keep saying eternal life is the condition for never perishing, but you keep ignoring the plain, simple Biblical fact that eternal life is conditioned on believing:

"24“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life." (John 5:24 NASB)

It's not right to un-rightly divide John 10:28 away from all the other passages that tell us present believing is the condition for keeping the eternal life you received when you first believed. People who know the Bible can see that Hyper-grace is not rightly dividing the word of God.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them

Surely you can see, then, that Hyper-grace doctrine is false.
In complete contradiction to the passage you quoted, Hyper-grace doctrine says the person who used to believe and continues to sin IS born of God.

As the passage says, when God's seed (his Word) remains in a person they will remain born again and, as a result, will not continue to sin. It is when the seed is cast off in unbelief that the person is no longer born again and, thus, goes on sinning. Thus the necessity for the person to continue to believe in order to remain born again:

"24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.
25This is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life." (1 John 2:24-25 NASB)

"1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB)

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Allen,

If Paul is warning the Thessalonians not to be led astray....

Doesn't this mean that it's possible to be led astray?
Why would he warn them unless it was possible?

Please understand what is being said in Chapter 2 1-12: the only ones who need to worry are the ones who are perishing because they refuse to love the truth.
When the Thessalonians see this happening, then they will know the end is near.
Paul's not talking about anything else.

 

[MarkT]

That's what the aorist tense means. It speaks about an action that occurred in a point in time. There is no time duration concept with the aorist tense.

Like a snapshot vs a video. Aorist is the snapshot, and the present tense is a video.


Which is why we have eternal security.

There's no time duration to consider. How long does it take to hear and believe? How long does it take to be sealed? Do these events take time? No. These events happen in time, but they are not durative in nature (they do not take time).

A person either believes or he does not believe. Common sense. You can't let some misunderstanding overrule common sense.

Those who believe in Christ, and are born again, have the Spirit. Those who do not believe are condemned already.

You hear former Christians. There is no evidence they possess the Spirit of God. The don't believe. They even mock believers. It tells me they do not possess the Spirit of God.

 

[MarkT]

Your theology negates itself, teaching the teachings we received don't matter. Faith or lose faith. It doesn't matter. Hope or lose hope, no matter. Love or lose love, no matter. Believe or do not believe, no matter.

Here's a mystery for you. God gave us believing hearts so we could believe. It was no accident of fate. Eze. 11:19

 

[Nathan]

Nathan, you are getting things mixed up.
2 Thessalonians 2:3 is a direct reference to 1 John 3:7.
To put it in perspective, here's 1 John 3:7-10;
" Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8 The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. 9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. 10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister."

I do think that we will know of the rebelling ones by their fruit, which will be unrighteousness.

I don't see how I would be mixing anything up. You simply don't rebell against something your not apart of.

A rebellion always comes from within, and apart of, the thing they are rebelling against.

 

[gr8grace3]

You guys related?

I KNOW we are. Not to sure about many others.

 

[Nathan]

Please understand what is being said in Chapter 2 1-12: the only ones who need to worry are the ones who are perishing because they refuse to love the truth.
When the Thessalonians see this happening, then they will know the end is near.
Paul's not talking about anything else.

A warning from someone should never be considered a reason to worry. Warnings are intended to focus us, so we will not be led astray.

Matthew 24
3 As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the close of the age?"
4 And Jesus answered them, "See that no one leads you astray.
5 For many will come in my name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and they will lead many astray.
6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for this must take place, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places.
8 All these are but the beginning of the birth pains.
9 "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another.
11 And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray.
12 And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold.
13 But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

Warnings are important so we will not turn away from what is true. A prideful heart is the one who does not heed warnings, and that always precedes a fall.

 

[reba]

LOL

I don't dislike it. I know its value.
I just hate when people use it to try and make something sound like something else and they make Koine Greek sound so simple when it really isn't. The aorist tense is complicated and we shouldn't be dealing with it.

The bible is very clear in any language. I have a few Italian ones too.
They all say THE SAME THING!! The SAME IDEAS!!

No need for Greek.

God is a spirit. He's not a language professor.

Hey Nathan...
Know what time it is here?
4:32 a.m.
I can't sleep!!

Tomorrow...

AMEN

 

[Jim Parker]

We are saved by His merit. His Grace.

Merit and Grace are two entirely different things.

Most everybody here is saying we are saved by our personal belief and continuing belief. Our merit. Which is basically what the RCC says and believes.

Belief and merit are also two totally different things.
That is NOT what the RCC says/teaches/believes when speaking about merit.

Now how is that touting the RCC doctrine Of "merit"? Since you ACCUSED me of touting it.

I didn't accuse you of anything.
I asked if you were RCC based on your statement about salvation by Christ's merit.
As it turns out, you had no idea that merit, grace, and belief all have very different meanings.
That pretty much answers my original question.

 

[gr8grace3]

I didn't accuse you of anything.

Then why are you touting the RCC "Merit" doctrine?

 

[Jim Parker]

It was a simple question.
You stated (more or less) that salvation was based on Christ's merit. (OK, you weren't "touting" it; you didn't pester anyone.)
That's part of RCC doctrine.
That's not an accusation.
That's a statement of fact.
But you have since answered my question about being RCC by demonstrating that you don't know the difference in meaning between the words "merit", "grace" and "belief".
And you also said that most people here believe what the RCC believe (your post #1835 ) which further verifies your confusion concerning merit, grace and belief.

Have a nice day