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Are you taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works
- Thread starter Jim Parker
- Start date
Yes agreed.
And those that are truly born again are not led astray.
Matthew 24:24; ...that would deceive the elect, if that were possible...
I asked this:
"Was Jesus serious when He promised those He gives eternal life will never perish in John 10:28?
Just curious."
From John 17:17, where Jesus prayed for God to sanctify believers:
NT:37 hagiazo (hag-ee-ad'-zo); from NT:40; to make holy, i.e. (ceremonially) purify or consecrate; (mentally) to venerate:
KJV - hallow, be holy, sanctify.
I won't cut and paste the entire article, but from the International Study Bible Encyclopedia:
SANCTIFICATION
Etymology: These words are "holy," "hallow," "hallowed," "holiness," "consecrate," "saint," "sanctify," "sanctification." It must be borne in mind that these words are all translations of the same root, and that therefore no one of them can be treated adequately without reference to the others. All have undergone a certain development. Broadly stated, this has been from the formal, or ritual, to the ethical, and these different meanings must be carefully distinguished.
I. The Formal Sense. - By sanctification is ordinarily meant that hallowing of the Christian believer by which he is freed from sin and enabled to realize the will of God in his life. This is not, however, the first or common meaning in the Scriptures. To sanctify means commonly to make holy, that is, to separate from the world and consecrate to God.
II. The Ethical Sense. - We have been considering so far what has been called the formal meaning of the word; but the chief interest of Christian thought lies in the ethical idea, sanctification considered as the active deed or process by which the life is made holy.
1. Transformation of Formal to Ethical Idea: Our first question is, How does the idea of belonging to God become the idea of transformation of life and character? The change is, indeed, nothing less than a part of the whole movement for which the entire Scriptures stand as a monument. The ethical is not wanting at the beginning, but the supremacy of the moral and spiritual over against the formal, the ritual, the ceremonial, the national, is the clear direction in which the movement as a whole tends. Now the pivot of this movement is the conception of God. As the thought of God grows more ethical, more spiritual, it molds and changes all other conceptions. Thus what it means to belong to God (holiness, sanctification) depends upon the nature of the God to whom man belongs.
3. Sanctification as God's Gift: We come now to that aspect which is central for Christian interest, sanctification as the making holy of life, not by our act, but by God's deed and by God's gift.
4. Questions of Time and Method: When we ask, however, when and how this work is wrought, there is no such clear answer. What we have is on the one hand uncompromising ideal and demand, and on the other absolute confidence in God.
6. Follows from Fellowship with God: The second general conclusion that we draw from the New Testament teaching as to the Christian life is this: the sanctification which is a part of all Christian living follows from the very nature of that life as fellowship with God. Fundamental here is the fact that the Christian life is personal, that nothing belongs in it which cannot be stated in personal terms. It is a life with God in which He graciously gives Himself to us, and which we live out with Him and with our brothers in the spirit of Christ, which is His Spirit. The two great facts as to this fellowship are, that it is God's gift, and that its fruit is holiness. First, it is God's gift. What God gives us is nothing less than Himself. The gift is not primarily forgiveness, nor victory over sin, nor peace of soul, nor hope of heaven. It is fellowship with Him, which includes all of these and without which none of these can be. Secondly, the fruit of this fellowship is holiness. The real hallowing of our life can come in no other way. For Christian holiness is personal, not something formal or ritual, and its source and power can be nothing lower than the personal. Such is the fellowship into which God graciously lifts the believer. Whatever its mystical aspects, that fellowship is not magical or sacramental. It is ethical through and through.
8. Sanctification as Man's Task: That conclusion we can reach only as we go back again to the fundamental principle of the personal character of the Christian life and the relation thus given between the ethical and the religious. All Christian life is gift and task alike. "Work out your own salvation .... for it is God who worketh in you" (Phil 2:12 f). All is from God; we can only live what God gives. But there is a converse to this: only as we live it out can God give to us the life. This appears in Paul's teaching as to sanctification. It is not only God's gift, but our task. "This is the will of God, even your sanctification" (1 Thess 4:3). "Having therefore these promises .... let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness (hagiosune) in the fear of God" (2 Cor 7:1). Significant is Paul's use of the word "walk." We are to "walk in newness of life," "by (or in) the Spirit," "in love," and "in Christ Jesus the Lord" (Rom 6:4; Gal 5:16; Eph 5:2; Col 2:6).
We may sum up as follows: The word "sanctify" is used with two broad meanings: (1) The first is to devote, to consecrate to God, to recognize as holy, that is, as belonging to God. This is the regular Old Testament usage and is most common in the New Testament. The prophets showed that this belonging to Yahweh demanded righteousness. The New Testament deepens this into a whole-hearted surrender to the fellowship of God and to the rule of His Spirit. (2) Though the word itself appears in but few passages with this sense, the New Testament is full of the thought of the making holy of the Christian's life by the Spirit of God in that fellowship into which God lifts us by His grace and in which He gives Himself to us. This sanctifying, or hallowing, is not mechanical or magical. It is wrought out by God's Spirit in a daily fellowship to which man gives himself in aspiration and trust and obedience, receiving with open heart, living out in obedient life. It is not negative, the mere separation from sin, but the progressive hallowing of a life that grows constantly in capacity, as in character, into the stature of full manhood as it is in Christ. And from this its very nature it is not momentary, but the deed and the privilege of a whole life.
(from International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia, Electronic Database Copyright © 1996, 2003, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)
This is less than half of the whole article but provides an overview of the word.
The reason I point out 2 kinds, which the article doesn't specify is that by the very fact of our being in union with Christ, we share His sanctification. The Son belongs to God, and has been set apart by Him. That's positional sanctification.
The article spends considerable time on the second kind, which is progressive sanctification, which deals with our "becoming holy". See point 6.
I highlighted all the occurrences of the word "fellowship" to show just how important fellowship with God is.
Now, please answer my question about John 10:28; was Jesus serious?
"Was Jesus serious when He promised those He gives eternal life will never perish in John 10:28?
Just curious."
I wonder why my response posts continue to be missed. Recall when I asked how many kinds of sanctification there were, and your response indicated only 1. My response was an explanation of both kinds (2) of sanctification.
From John 17:17, where Jesus prayed for God to sanctify believers:
NT:37 hagiazo (hag-ee-ad'-zo); from NT:40; to make holy, i.e. (ceremonially) purify or consecrate; (mentally) to venerate:
KJV - hallow, be holy, sanctify.
I won't cut and paste the entire article, but from the International Study Bible Encyclopedia:
SANCTIFICATION
Etymology: These words are "holy," "hallow," "hallowed," "holiness," "consecrate," "saint," "sanctify," "sanctification." It must be borne in mind that these words are all translations of the same root, and that therefore no one of them can be treated adequately without reference to the others. All have undergone a certain development. Broadly stated, this has been from the formal, or ritual, to the ethical, and these different meanings must be carefully distinguished.
I. The Formal Sense. - By sanctification is ordinarily meant that hallowing of the Christian believer by which he is freed from sin and enabled to realize the will of God in his life. This is not, however, the first or common meaning in the Scriptures. To sanctify means commonly to make holy, that is, to separate from the world and consecrate to God.
II. The Ethical Sense. - We have been considering so far what has been called the formal meaning of the word; but the chief interest of Christian thought lies in the ethical idea, sanctification considered as the active deed or process by which the life is made holy.
1. Transformation of Formal to Ethical Idea: Our first question is, How does the idea of belonging to God become the idea of transformation of life and character? The change is, indeed, nothing less than a part of the whole movement for which the entire Scriptures stand as a monument. The ethical is not wanting at the beginning, but the supremacy of the moral and spiritual over against the formal, the ritual, the ceremonial, the national, is the clear direction in which the movement as a whole tends. Now the pivot of this movement is the conception of God. As the thought of God grows more ethical, more spiritual, it molds and changes all other conceptions. Thus what it means to belong to God (holiness, sanctification) depends upon the nature of the God to whom man belongs.
3. Sanctification as God's Gift: We come now to that aspect which is central for Christian interest, sanctification as the making holy of life, not by our act, but by God's deed and by God's gift.
4. Questions of Time and Method: When we ask, however, when and how this work is wrought, there is no such clear answer. What we have is on the one hand uncompromising ideal and demand, and on the other absolute confidence in God.
6. Follows from Fellowship with God: The second general conclusion that we draw from the New Testament teaching as to the Christian life is this: the sanctification which is a part of all Christian living follows from the very nature of that life as fellowship with God. Fundamental here is the fact that the Christian life is personal, that nothing belongs in it which cannot be stated in personal terms. It is a life with God in which He graciously gives Himself to us, and which we live out with Him and with our brothers in the spirit of Christ, which is His Spirit. The two great facts as to this fellowship are, that it is God's gift, and that its fruit is holiness. First, it is God's gift. What God gives us is nothing less than Himself. The gift is not primarily forgiveness, nor victory over sin, nor peace of soul, nor hope of heaven. It is fellowship with Him, which includes all of these and without which none of these can be. Secondly, the fruit of this fellowship is holiness. The real hallowing of our life can come in no other way. For Christian holiness is personal, not something formal or ritual, and its source and power can be nothing lower than the personal. Such is the fellowship into which God graciously lifts the believer. Whatever its mystical aspects, that fellowship is not magical or sacramental. It is ethical through and through.
8. Sanctification as Man's Task: That conclusion we can reach only as we go back again to the fundamental principle of the personal character of the Christian life and the relation thus given between the ethical and the religious. All Christian life is gift and task alike. "Work out your own salvation .... for it is God who worketh in you" (Phil 2:12 f). All is from God; we can only live what God gives. But there is a converse to this: only as we live it out can God give to us the life. This appears in Paul's teaching as to sanctification. It is not only God's gift, but our task. "This is the will of God, even your sanctification" (1 Thess 4:3). "Having therefore these promises .... let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness (hagiosune) in the fear of God" (2 Cor 7:1). Significant is Paul's use of the word "walk." We are to "walk in newness of life," "by (or in) the Spirit," "in love," and "in Christ Jesus the Lord" (Rom 6:4; Gal 5:16; Eph 5:2; Col 2:6).
We may sum up as follows: The word "sanctify" is used with two broad meanings: (1) The first is to devote, to consecrate to God, to recognize as holy, that is, as belonging to God. This is the regular Old Testament usage and is most common in the New Testament. The prophets showed that this belonging to Yahweh demanded righteousness. The New Testament deepens this into a whole-hearted surrender to the fellowship of God and to the rule of His Spirit. (2) Though the word itself appears in but few passages with this sense, the New Testament is full of the thought of the making holy of the Christian's life by the Spirit of God in that fellowship into which God lifts us by His grace and in which He gives Himself to us. This sanctifying, or hallowing, is not mechanical or magical. It is wrought out by God's Spirit in a daily fellowship to which man gives himself in aspiration and trust and obedience, receiving with open heart, living out in obedient life. It is not negative, the mere separation from sin, but the progressive hallowing of a life that grows constantly in capacity, as in character, into the stature of full manhood as it is in Christ. And from this its very nature it is not momentary, but the deed and the privilege of a whole life.
(from International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia, Electronic Database Copyright © 1996, 2003, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)
This is less than half of the whole article but provides an overview of the word.
The reason I point out 2 kinds, which the article doesn't specify is that by the very fact of our being in union with Christ, we share His sanctification. The Son belongs to God, and has been set apart by Him. That's positional sanctification.
The article spends considerable time on the second kind, which is progressive sanctification, which deals with our "becoming holy". See point 6.
I highlighted all the occurrences of the word "fellowship" to show just how important fellowship with God is.
Now, please answer my question about John 10:28; was Jesus serious?
If one who has received eternal life can end up in hell, then His promise is meaningless. How could it not be?
If one who receives eternal life could somehow separate himself from Christ and therefore no longer have eternal life, why did Jesus not make that clear?
He was very clear by NOT adding any conditions for never perishing. But your position DOES add conditions that our Lord NEVER added.
This makes no sense to me.
Jethro Bodine
Member
Hyper-grace doctrine says the elect can be led astray, and that the person remains saved despite them being led astray into unbelief. Non-OSAS says what John says: Retain the word, keep the anointing, and remain the elect so you won't be led astray (1 John 2:24-27 NASB).
I don't understand this obsession.
My point (the Bible's point, actually, from Eph 1:13,14) is that no one CAN leave Christ. They are marked with a seal, the Holy Spirit. Jesus promised that He would be with us FOREVER. John 14:16
Your assumption about leaving Christ is false.
And Jesus' promise in Jn 10:28 is clear; those who receive eternal life will never perish. It's all on Him. He saves us, and He keeps us.
And that is grace.
I guess the power of God in saving one just isn't appreciated the way I do.
Receiving the gift of eternal life in NO WAY comparable to the offer of good and water for the rest of my life.
However, you have actually made my point, but without realizing it.
Jesus was talking about those who have RECEIVED the gift. Not just offered. An offer can be rejected. That's what we call unbelievers.
So, to correct your example above, if you actually GAVE me enough food and water to last my lifetime, then I have it. But even that fails to equal what Jesus is talking about. He's talking about a life that cannot perish. Peter said the same thing in 1 Pet 1:23 - For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.
What has been born again of imperishable seed simply CANNOT PERISH. Which is the same principle that Jesus made in Jn 10:28.
An offer isn't the issue here. Not at all. The issue is about what's been GIVEN and RECEIVED.
Until that is actually understood, there is no way to have a reasonable or rational discussion about it.
Nathan
Member
I am not God, so it would be impossible for me to know who has truly turned from the faith and will not be in the kingdom.
The elect are not led astray because they are following Christ. When you are following Christ, then you will not be led astray. It is only when you turn from following Christ that you will be led astray.
Matthew 24:24 does not say that it is impossible to turn away, only that it is impossible for the elect to be deceived. Sadly, people who are deceived think its someone else's 'fault' that they are deceived. In fact, some think that because its someone else's fault - then they are not responsible for being deceived.
If I told you it was impossible for those standing on a hill to drown, when a flood came over a valley, does that mean if those standing on a hill were to enter the valley they would not drown?
Agree with all of this.
I believe this is just an assumption.
Once sealed, always sealed. Because the seal is a GUARANTEE, which I take LITERALLY. And it about our inheritance for the day of redemption. That is eternal life.
And I cannot dismiss Jesus' promise about those who RECEIVE eternal life will never perish.
Did you notice that He added NO CONDITIONS for never perishing, beyond simply receiving the gift? That is eternal security.
Nathan
Member
Because you do not possess eternal life apart from Christ. The promises of God are in Christ.
Jesus did make it clear that to be separated from Him is to be separated from all He gives.
Jhn 15:1-6
“I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.
If you think my position is not correct, then please show me where you can posses eternal life apart from Christ. Show me where eternal life is not only found in Christ.
This perjorative snipe aside, a person remains saved because the remain sealed, per Eph 1:13,14, for those who understand what a guarantee is, and what the deposit of the Spirit is FOR; which is our inheritance for the day of redemption.
All words to communicate eternal security. And no one has shown otherwise.
And Jesus promised that those who RECEIVE eternal life will never perish. Not any conditions beyond simply receiving eternal life.
That's grace. That's eternal security.
He saves us, and He keeps us. He promised to do so.
Nathan
Member
You do not believe someone can forsake Christ?
1Co 10:1-13
For I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, and all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Christ. Nevertheless, with most of them God was not pleased, for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
Now these things took place as examples for us, that we might not desire evil as they did. Do not be idolaters as some of them were; as it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink and rose up to play.” We must not indulge in sexual immorality as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in a single day. We must not put Christ to the test, as some of them did and were destroyed by serpents, nor grumble, as some of them did and were destroyed by the Destroyer. Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come. Therefore let anyone who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall. No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.
Take heed lest you fall.
Nathan
Member
You cannot survive by just eating one meal. You can not survive spiritually by just eating of Christ one time.
What little you may realize is that you are eating something. What fruit are you eating?
The seed that you were born of produces fruit in you. If that plant dies, no fruit is produced. Luke 8 talks about this.
You cannot perish if you are in Christ. You will perish if you are not in Christ.
1Jo 5:12
Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.
Nathan
Member
Why do you keep using Jesus in a negative way, stating that if something you don't believe in is true then He lied?
John 10:28 specifically states that His sheep are the ones who have eternal life. You know you are His sheep when you follow Him. This is what John 10:28 is all about. You cannot build a whole doctrine on this, ruling out the rest of the Bible, and stating that anything that opposes your view makes Jesus a liar.
Interesting, stating one persons challenge is bogus - yet issuing another challenge of the same(but opposite) manner.
Your list is proven by one word - unbelief. Unbelief turns you away from the mark, seal, savior, birthright, justification. You cannot have those things if you do not believe in them.
Gal 5:2-4
Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law. You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.
Do you feel you are justified by the law? Do you know that being justified by the law means you believe that something you did is what brings/gives you your justification?
So a person who thinks that they are justified because they believed at one point in time, is basing their justification on their action of belief.
But they can fall away. Peter fell away. Not into unbelief, but he did fall away; He denied even knowing Jesus. So as long as we are in the world, in a physical body, we are going to have physical desires. Also we can see and hear what the godless are saying (they are so confident in their common descent theory) People are influenced by what they see and hear and Jesus said many will fall away. That's an unalterable fact.
Kidron
Member
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Nathan,
One your realize that Faith does not save you or keep you saved, you'll then quite possibly begin to realize WHO saves and exactly how. .
There are a lot of people who are trusting in Faith, instead of trusting in Christ....= to save them and KEEP them saved.
You're not alone.
You don't have to dismiss it. What he said is true.
I am the good shepherd; I know my own and my own know me John 10:14 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. Mt. 10:27
Jesus knows his own sheep. They do not fall away. He gives them eternal life.
If you view the ones given to him by the Father as a subset of the called (For many are called, but few are chosen Mt. 24:13), and the elect as those who hold the highest offices ie. apostles, prophets, teachers; these would be difficult if not impossible to dislodge, given they are held in the Father's hand. Hence Jesus' statement that no one can snatch them out of the Father's hand. John 10:28-29
The gospel is not one size fits all. He who has ears, let him hear.
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Nathan
Member
I suppose that's the hardest thing to explain to someone? Or maybe a person can't explain it. No one explained it to me, I just realized it one day. Before then, I thought that because I believed I was in Christ. Then, I realized I believe because I am in Christ.
Maybe that's the issue. People look at 'being saved' as a means to an end. Where as, in Christ its a life, and that of continual ongoing 'saving'. He saves me each and every day.
Jethro Bodine
Member
There is no argument that as long as you have eternal life you're not going to perish (John 10:28 NASB). That's not even a point of contention. What is in contention is you're telling us that Jesus did not really mean it when he said the person who has eternal life is the one who believes:
"24“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life." (John 5:24 NASB bold)
You keep insisting that we ignore what Jesus said in favor of what your doctrine teaches. That's called un-rightly dividing the word of God. You have to include ALL of the word of God when forming doctrine. If Hyper-grace included all the word of God it would be forced to concede that Jesus himself said the person who has eternal life is the one who believes, not the person who doesn't believe.
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