Bible Study Scripture required?

[Humblepie]

IRENAEUS
“As I said before, the Church, having received this preaching and this faith, although she is disseminated throughout the whole world, yet guarded it, as if she occupied but one house. She likewise believes these things just as if she had but one soul and one and the same heart; and harmoniously she proclaims them and teaches them and hands them down, as if she possessed but one mouth. For, while the languages of the world are diverse, nevertheless, the authority of the tradition is one and the same” (Against Heresies 1:10:2 [A.D. 189]).

“That is why it is surely necessary to avoid them [heretics], while cherishing with the utmost diligence the things pertaining to the Church, and to lay hold of the tradition of truth. . . . What if the apostles had not in fact left writings to us? Would it not be necessary to follow the order of tradition, which was handed down to those to whom they entrusted the churches?” (ibid., 3:4:1).

“It is possible, then, for everyone in every church, who may wish to know the truth, to contemplate the tradition of the apostles which has been made known throughout the whole world. And we are in a position to enumerate those who were instituted bishops by the apostles and their successors to our own times—men who neither knew nor taught anything like these heretics rave about.

“But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the successions of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles.

“With this church, because of its superior origin, all churches must agree—that is, all the faithful in the whole world—and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition” (ibid., 3:3:1–2).

CLEMENT OF ALEXANDRIA
“Well, they preserving the tradition of the blessed doctrine derived directly from the holy apostles, Peter, James, John, and Paul, the sons receiving it from the father (but few were like the fathers), came by God’s will to us also to deposit those ancestral and apostolic seeds. And well I know that they will exult; I do not mean delighted with this tribute, but solely on account of the preservation of the truth, according as they delivered it. For such a sketch as this, will, I think, be agreeable to a soul desirous of preserving from loss the blessed tradition” (Miscellanies 1:1 [A.D. 208]).

ORIGEN
“Although there are many who believe that they themselves hold to the teachings of Christ, there are yet some among them who think differently from their predecessors. The teaching of the Church has indeed been handed down through an order of succession from the apostles and remains in the churches even to the present time. That alone is to be believed as the truth which is in no way at variance with ecclesiastical and apostolic tradition” (The Fundamental Doctrines 1:2 [A.D. 225]).

CYPRIAN OF CARTHAGE
“[T]he Church is one, and as she is one, cannot be both within and without. For if she is with Novatian, she was not with [Pope] Cornelius. But if she was with Cornelius, who succeeded the bishop Fabian by lawful ordination, and whom, beside the honor of the priesthood the Lord glorified also with martyrdom, Novatian is not in the Church; nor can he be reckoned as a bishop, who, succeeding to no one, and despising the evangelical and apostolic tradition, sprang from himself. For he who has not been ordained in the Church can neither have nor hold to the Church in any way” (Letters 75:3 [A.D. 253]).

ATHANASIUS
“Again we write, again keeping to the apostolic traditions, we remind each other when we come together for prayer; and keeping the feast in common, with one mouth we truly give thanks to the Lord. Thus giving thanks unto him, and being followers of the saints, ‘we shall make our praise in the Lord all the day,’ as the psalmist says. So, when we rightly keep the feast, we shall be counted worthy of that joy which is in heaven” (Festal Letters 2:7 [A.D. 330]).

“But you are blessed, who by faith are in the Church, dwell upon the foundations of the faith, and have full satisfaction, even the highest degree of faith which remains among you unshaken. For it has come down to you from apostolic tradition, and frequently accursed envy has wished to unsettle it, but has not been able” (ibid., 29).

BASIL THE GREAT
“Of the dogmas and messages preserved in the Church, some we possess from written teaching and others we receive from the tradition of the apostles, handed on to us in mystery. In respect to piety, both are of the same force. No one will contradict any of these, no one, at any rate, who is even moderately versed in matters ecclesiastical. Indeed, were we to try to reject unwritten customs as having no great authority, we would unwittingly injure the gospel in its vitals; or rather, we would reduce [Christian] message to a mere term” (The Holy Spirit 27:66 [A.D. 375]).

EPIPHANIUS OF SALAMIS
“It is needful also to make use of tradition, for not everything can be gotten from sacred Scripture. The holy apostles handed down some things in the scriptures, other things in tradition” (Medicine Chest Against All Heresies 61:6 [A.D. 375]).

AUGUSTINE
“[]he custom [of not rebaptizing converts] . . . may be supposed to have had its origin in apostolic tradition, just as there are many things which are observed by the whole Church, and therefore are fairly held to have been enjoined by the apostles, which yet are not mentioned in their writings” (On Baptism, Against the Donatists 5:23[31] [A.D. 400]).

“But the admonition that he [Cyprian] gives us, ‘that we should go back to the fountain, that is, to apostolic tradition, and thence turn the channel of truth to our times,’ is most excellent, and should be followed without hesitation” (ibid., 5:26[37]).

“But in regard to those observances which we carefully attend and which the whole world keeps, and which derive not from Scripture but from Tradition, we are given to understand that they are recommended and ordained to be kept, either by the apostles themselves or by plenary [ecumenical] councils, the authority of which is quite vital in the Church” (Letter to Januarius [A.D. 400]).

That's just too much copy and pasting for me in 35 minutes. Just a bunch of repeat scripture that doesn't prove your point.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Dan 2: 44 And in the days of these kings (Roman Caesars) shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Isaiah 2:2
And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

Micah 4:1
But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.

Daniel 6:26
I make a decree, That in every dominion of my kingdom men tremble and fear before the God of Daniel: for he is the living God, and stedfast for ever, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed, and his dominion shall be even unto the end.

Daniel 7:14
And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Daniel 7:18
But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

Great scriptures, addressed to men walking in the "flesh".

Lk 22:29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;

That reward will come after the day of judgement.
Your "church" wants to usurp it now !
They run it like a kingdom of "man".
Full of hoarded wealth, while the poor lack food.

 

[KV-44-v1]

We both reject the mere human tradition or the tradition of men,

Ok if that is true then reject catholicism & follow Scripture.

but we must both accept the divine tradition and the extension of that tradition, the apostolic tradition

so how do you define tradition?

1. the transmission of customs or beliefs from generation to generation, or the fact of being passed on in this way.

2. a long-established custom or belief that has been passed on from one generation to another.


3. a doctrine believed to have divine authority though not in the Scriptures.

Scripture is tradition

So by that logic, they are one and the same, and therefore synonyms. So why does it seems like you have differentiated them?? If Scripture is tradition then that means there is ONE Authority - the BIBLE - if the Bible is Apostolic Tradition. Or, interchangably, A.T. is sole authority, since you have made them the same.
So still, NOT 2 Authorities!! One!!

If Scripture is Apostolic Tradition - it's time to say bye bye to catholicism!! Follow the conclusions. Dont let catholicism clap wool onto your eyes.

Scripture is from the apostolic tradition

Now you contradict yourself? Either it's FROM the A.T. (apostolic tradition) or it IS the A.T.
Is A.T./Scripture from itself??

The New Testament cannon was decided and decreed by the apostolic tradition in 381

But the NT is Scripture too. So was Scripture decided and decreed by itself??
When you said "Scripture is tradition" was that a bad choice of words??

Either Scripture IS or is NOT A.T.
PICK. ONE.

 

[KV-44-v1]

Great scriptures, addressed to men walking in the "flesh".

That reward will come after the day of judgement.
Your "church" wants to usurp it now !
They run it like a kingdom of "man".
Full of hoarded wealth, while the poor lack food.

deficiency of catholicism!
power of the Bible!

 

[KV-44-v1]

His teaching authority!

So humans can be inerrant in their claims, like Jesus was??
That *reeks* of "yOu shAlL bE LikE The Most High!!" of the original deciever serpent.
Catholicism is an echo of the "hAs God said" of the Eden serpent. This has been peoven many times in history.

If catholic church is God's Church explain why they fell for german tyrant Adoof Hiltler sooo easily in the 1930's-40's.

Even His judging!
Matt 19:28 and 1 cor 6:2

Matthew is referring to the tribes of Israel. Did you think that verse meant ALL humans??

Corinthians is interesting, though. But we will sit in judgment of the bad. But what about the faithful?
But notice, it is not HIS Judging. we get our OWN.
God does Not share His glory! This makes sense - because mathematically, a fraction of infinity Is Still Infinity!! God is Infinite! So it makes sense that God does not share His Glory because doing so might make another God - which the One God won't let happen!

His power to forgive sins!

See mathematical explanation above. our own, less version. not a part of God's.
Notice how that John verse you cited says NOTHING about God giving us a part of His forgiving Power.

Christ shares His glory with His saints!

Wrong. Christ is God so He doesn't share His Glory.

Sola scriptura says:
Christ and most of the apostles wrote nothing, so they had No authority, no teaching!
Only those who wrote had authority!

Strawman fallacy. 2 fronts.
front 1.Sola Scriptura does not deny Jesus' Authority. idk where you got from.
front 2. Heres the real deal:
The phrase sola scriptura is from the Latin: sola having the idea of “alone,” “ground,” “base,” and the word scriptura meaning “writings”—referring to the Scriptures. Sola scriptura means that Scripture alone is authoritative for the faith and practice of the Christian.

 

[KV-44-v1]

The primary Catholic argument against sola scriptura is that the Bible does not explicitly teach sola scriptura. Catholics argue that the Bible nowhere states that it is the only authoritative guide for faith and practice.
However, this is only true in the shallowest sense.
The principle is strongly indicated by verses such as Acts 17:11, which commends the Bereans for testing doctrine—taught by an apostle, no less—to the written Word.
Sola scriptura is [clearly] indicated in 1 Corinthians 4:6, where Paul warns not to “go beyond what is written.”
Jesus Himself criticized those who allowed traditions to override the explicit commands of God in Mark 7:6–9.

Whether sola scriptura is overtly mentioned in the Bible or not, Catholicism fails to recognize a crucially important issue.
We know that the Bible is the Word of God. The Bible declares itself to be God-breathed, inerrant, and authoritative.
We also know that God does not change His mind or contradict Himself. So, while the Bible itself may not explicitly argue for sola scriptura, it most definitely does not allow for traditions that contradict its message.
Sola scriptura is not as much of an argument against tradition as it is an argument against unbiblical, extra-biblical and/or anti-biblical doctrines. The only way to know for sure what God expects of us is to stay true to what we know He has revealed—the Bible.
We can know, beyond the shadow of any doubt, that Scripture is true, authoritative, and reliable. The same cannot be said of tradition.

 

[donadams]

The primary Catholic argument against sola scriptura is that the Bible does not explicitly teach sola scriptura. Catholics argue that the Bible nowhere states that it is the only authoritative guide for faith and practice.
However, this is only true in the shallowest sense.
The principle is strongly indicated by verses such as Acts 17:11, which commends the Bereans for testing doctrine—taught by an apostle, no less—to the written Word.
Sola scriptura is [clearly] indicated in 1 Corinthians 4:6, where Paul warns not to “go beyond what is written.”
Jesus Himself criticized those who allowed traditions to override the explicit commands of God in Mark 7:6–9.

Whether sola scriptura is overtly mentioned in the Bible or not, Catholicism fails to recognize a crucially important issue.
We know that the Bible is the Word of God. The Bible declares itself to be God-breathed, inerrant, and authoritative.
We also know that God does not change His mind or contradict Himself. So, while the Bible itself may not explicitly argue for sola scriptura, it most definitely does not allow for traditions that contradict its message.
Sola scriptura is not as much of an argument against tradition as it is an argument against unbiblical, extra-biblical and/or anti-biblical doctrines. The only way to know for sure what God expects of us is to stay true to what we know He has revealed—the Bible.
We can know, beyond the shadow of any doubt, that Scripture is true, authoritative, and reliable. The same cannot be said of tradition.

Scripture is tradition!
2 thes 2:15

 

[donadams]

A short catechism!

Jn 3:16 ((believe in Christ))
Mk 16:16 Jn 3:5 1 cor 16:13 gal 3:27 ((union with Christ by faith & baptism))
Jn 15:4 ((we must abide in Christ))
1 cor 13:2 (( charity & not by faith alone))
Phil 1:29 ((suffering not by faith alone))
Matt 25 Jn 15:5 phil 4:13 ((grace vivifies our works to be meritorious and salutary))
Matt 24:13 ((endure to the end to be saved))
Jn 5:29 ((good unto life & evil unto death))
Romans 8:17 2 Tim 2:12 ((glorified with Christ if we suffer with Him))
Rom 2:6 Rev 2: 19 ((reward for good works done in Christ & grace))

 

[donadams]

So humans can be inerrant in their claims, like Jesus was??
That *reeks* of "yOu shAlL bE LikE The Most High!!" of the original deciever serpent.
Catholicism is an echo of the "hAs God said" of the Eden serpent. This has been peoven many times in history.

If catholic church is God's Church explain why they fell for german tyrant Adoof Hiltler sooo easily in the 1930's-40's.



Matthew is referring to the tribes of Israel. Did you think that verse meant ALL humans??

Corinthians is interesting, though. But we will sit in judgment of the bad. But what about the faithful?
But notice, it is not HIS Judging. we get our OWN.
God does Not share His glory! This makes sense - because mathematically, a fraction of infinity Is Still Infinity!! God is Infinite! So it makes sense that God does not share His Glory because doing so might make another God - which the One God won't let happen!


See mathematical explanation above. our own, less version. not a part of God's.
Notice how that John verse you cited says NOTHING about God giving us a part of His forgiving Power.

Wrong. Christ is God so He doesn't share His Glory.



Strawman fallacy. 2 fronts.
front 1.Sola Scriptura does not deny Jesus' Authority. idk where you got from.
front 2. Heres the real deal:
The phrase sola scriptura is from the Latin: sola having the idea of “alone,” “ground,” “base,” and the word scriptura meaning “writings”—referring to the Scriptures. Sola scriptura means that Scripture alone is authoritative for the faith and practice of the Christian.

The apostolic church condemned hiltler and musilini

What mathematical explanation?

Scripture alone right
Not Christ who is the word Jn 1:1 and the truth Jn 14:6
Or the church 1 Tim 3:15

We must believe and obey both Christ and the church He founded on the apostles (Matt 16:18-19) to teach and sanctify all men unto eternal salvation! (Matt 28:19)

(Not scripture alone)
Sacred Scripture according to the churches cannon and interpretation? Yes!
Scripture alone? No!

Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things by, by whom also he made the worlds;

“Not by scripture alone”!

That’s the nail in the coffin of “Sola scriptura” it is dead and buried, “false doctrine” the doctrine of demons like all the sola’s!


For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. Jn 1:17

Jesus Christ is the way, the truth, and the life! Jn 14:6

And this extends to His apostolic church, Christ and His church are one and inseparable! Acts 9:4 Jn 15:5 eph 5:32 acts 2:42

Jesus Christ is the Light of the world! Jn 8:12
Apostolic church the light of the world! Matt 5:14

Must Hear Jesus Christ! Matt 17:5
Acts 3:23
Must Hear the apostolic church! Matt 18:17 1 Jn 4:6

Authority of Jesus Christ! Matt 28:17
Authority of the apostles! Jn 20:21

Jesus Christ has Reconciliation!
2 cor 5:19
Apostles have ministry of Reconciliation! 2 cor 5:18

Jesus Christ have power to forgive mens sins! Lk 5:20 Jn
Apostles have power to forgive mens sins! Jn 20:23

Jesus Christ is the truth! Jn 14:6
The apostolic church is the pillar of truth! 1 Tim 3:16

For the apostolic authority in Holy church decided and decreed (bound on earth / bound in heaven) the canon of Scripture, and is the only authentic interpreter of scripture!

The Christian faith is revealed by Christ!

Jesus Christ before ascending to heaven gave His apostles the fullness of truth, the apostolic church our mother and teacher is commanded by Him to teach and to sanctify with her sacraments (the promise of the spirit) all men unto eternal salvation! We are commanded to believe and obey! Matt 28:19

How can the Protestant concept: “sacred scripture is the only infallible source of truth” be true? There must be some infallible source that must tell us what is the canon of scripture & has authority to interpret scripture!

It is impossible to reject the church or her teaching without rejecting Christ who founded the church and revealed her teaching!

You cannot reject the kingdom established by the king and say I obey and submit to the king!

Jesus Christ founded the new covenant church to teach and sanctify (baptize) all men unto eternal salvation! (Matt 28:19)

Christ and His church are one!
((Inseparable unity))
Acts 9:4 Lk 10:16 eph 5:32 Isa 53:5 Jn 15:5 eph 5:24

Only Christ has authority to establish the church! Matt 16:18-19
One church! Jn 10:16 All others are sects “full of errors” “the tradition of men”! The new covenant Church is the eternal city of God! Household of faith! The pillar and ground of TRUTH! 1 Tim 3:15 Founded by Christ alone! Matt 16:18 on Peter and the apostles! Eph 2:20 Lk 22:29

The 30,000 sects (the tradition of men) having no authority at all! And holding and teaching contrary and new doctrines that oppose the Christian faith that was revealed by Christ and taught by holy mother church! Matt 28:19 acts 16:17


The church was founded and existed and exercised authority in teaching, governance, and sanctifying souls before the New Testament was written!

The church does not require the scriptures to know the truth!

The church wrote the scripture!

The church was taught by Christ in person for three years!

And commanded by Christ to teach and sanctify all men unto eternal salvation! Matt 28:19

For 30 plus years before the apostles wrote scripture
By the inspiration of the Holy Ghost they taught and preached and settle matters of doctrine!

Acts 8:12 & 25 & 35
Acts 13:5
1 pet 1:25

 

[donadams]

The primary Catholic argument against sola scriptura is that the Bible does not explicitly teach sola scriptura. Catholics argue that the Bible nowhere states that it is the only authoritative guide for faith and practice.
However, this is only true in the shallowest sense.
The principle is strongly indicated by verses such as Acts 17:11, which commends the Bereans for testing doctrine—taught by an apostle, no less—to the written Word.
Sola scriptura is [clearly] indicated in 1 Corinthians 4:6, where Paul warns not to “go beyond what is written.”
Jesus Himself criticized those who allowed traditions to override the explicit commands of God in Mark 7:6–9.

Whether sola scriptura is overtly mentioned in the Bible or not, Catholicism fails to recognize a crucially important issue.
We know that the Bible is the Word of God. The Bible declares itself to be God-breathed, inerrant, and authoritative.
We also know that God does not change His mind or contradict Himself. So, while the Bible itself may not explicitly argue for sola scriptura, it most definitely does not allow for traditions that contradict its message.
Sola scriptura is not as much of an argument against tradition as it is an argument against unbiblical, extra-biblical and/or anti-biblical doctrines. The only way to know for sure what God expects of us is to stay true to what we know He has revealed—the Bible.
We can know, beyond the shadow of any doubt, that Scripture is true, authoritative, and reliable. The same cannot be said of tradition.

SACRED SCRIPTURE IS TRADITION!
Sacred Scripture if the product of tradition!

Tradition does not refer to “traditions” plural customs & habits but is the teaching authority of Jesus Christ in His church!

Christ and His church are one!
((Inseparable unity))
Acts 9:4 Lk 10:16 eph 5:32 Isa 53:5 Jn 15:5 eph 5:24

Tradition 2 thes 2:15
Both teaching ((oral)) and epistle ((scripture)) are tradition!

Example:

Paul taught in 1 cor 11:23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:

That is tradition!

As I received / I delivered

Tradition

Not scripture for many years when he began to write

Thanks

 

[KV-44-v1]

Scripture is tradition, you say?
then i see zero reason to seperate the two.

tradition should never contradict the Bible then.


"Tradition has 66 Books." A bit odd to say, but your view says its correct.
So then all tradition (your type of tradition, not the type that man has) is Divinely Inspired right?

So then purgatory, sacrament turning into Jesus' body, mary-praying, rozery, ALL of these CONTRADICT TRADITION. following your thinking.
Not One Single Apostle taught that these were ok or good.

 

[Josef]

Does the Apostolic Church require sacred scripture to know the truth?

Thks

Hey All,
When you defend your point of view on matters of the church, do you quote what some pope said? Or do you quote what Jesus or the New Testament writers said? Popes can be wrong. Scripture is not.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

 

[donadams]

Scripture is tradition, you say?
then i see zero reason to seperate the two.

tradition should never contradict the Bible then.


"Tradition has 66 Books." A bit odd to say, but your view says its correct.
So then all tradition (your type of tradition, not the type that man has) is Divinely Inspired right?

So then purgatory, sacrament turning into Jesus' body, mary-praying, rozery, ALL of these CONTRADICT TRADITION. following your thinking.
Not One Single Apostle taught that these were ok or good.

The apostolic tradition approved 73 books with more chapters such as dan 12 & 14

Yes both scripture and the apostolic tradition are inspired and God breathed and on divine origin
2 thes 2:15 Jn 20:21

The rosary is prayer and Christian meditation on the life death and resurrection of christ

There are seven sacraments
See below

Purgatory is biblical
See below
Thks

 

[donadams]

Promise of God:
Sacred oath:
A promise or sacred oath made by God is called a sacrament:
A sacrament is also the fruit of a sacrifice, grace or the merits of Christ are fruit of His sacrifice on the cross!

Heb 8:8 better sacraments
Lk 1:72
Acts 2:39 referring to ez 36:25-27
Acts 1:4
Acts 2:33
Acts 13:23
Acts 13:32
Acts 26:6
Acts 26:7
Rom 1:2
2 Tim 1:1-2
2 pet 1:4
1 Jn 2:25 and many more!

Sacraments instituted by Christ for the salvation of souls!

Sacramental life of the Christian church: I come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly. Jn 10:10 Jn 1:16-17

Baptism: (initiation into the covenant)
Mk 16:16 Jn 3:5 acts 2:38-39 8:36
1 Corinthians 12:13 2 pet 1:11
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

The Eucharist: (holy communion)
Mt 26:26-39 Jn 6:51-58 1 Cor 11:23-25

Confession of sins:
Jn 20:23 / 1 Jn 1:9 / 2 cor 5:18

Confirmation
Lk 22:32 acts 8:14-17
acts 14:22

Marriage:
Matt 19:4-6

Holy orders: (priesthood)
Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru His priesthood in Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 10:1-8 Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13
Jn 20:21-22 acts 1:17 acts 6:4 acts 8:26
2 Cor 5:18 1 Tim 4:14 Eph 2:20

Extreme unction: (anointing with oil)
1 Tim 4:14 James 5:14

The ark of salvation: one, holy, catholic, (universal) and apostolic church founded by Jesus Christ on Peter and the apostles!

 

[donadams]

Biblical Purgatory:

Psalm 66:12 (RSV) Thou didst let men ride over our heads; we went through fire and through water; yet thou hast brought us forth to a spacious place.

This verse was considered a proof of purgatory by Origen and St. Ambrose, who posits the water of baptism and the fire of purgatory.

Isaiah 4:4 When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion and cleansed the bloodstains of Jerusalem from its midst by a spirit of judgment and by a spirit of burning. (cf. 1:25-26; 6:5-7; Ecc 12:14)

St. Augustine, in the 20th Book of his City of God, chapter 25, interprets this as purgatory. The preceding verse refers to the saved (“called holy” and “recorded for life”) and verses 5 and 6 describe the repose of the blessed.

Micah 7:9 I will bear the indignation of the Lord because I have sinned against him, until he pleads my cause and executes judgment for me. He will bring me forth to the light; I shall behold his deliverance. (cf. Lev 26:41, 43; Job 40:4-5; Lam 3:39)

St. Jerome considered this verse a clear proof of purgatory.

Malachi 3:3 he will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, till they present right offerings to the LORD.

Origen, St. Irenaeus, St. Ambrose, St. Augustine, and St. Jerome all thought this was a description of purgatory.

2 Maccabees 12:44-45 For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. [45] But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin. (cf. 1 Cor 15:29)

The Jews offered atonement and prayer for their deceased brethren, who had clearly violated Mosaic Law. Such a practice presupposes purgatory, since those in heaven wouldn’t need any help, and those in hell are beyond it.

Matthew 5:22 But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, “You fool!” shall be liable to the hell of fire.

St. Francis de Sales commented:

It is only the third sort of offence which is punished with hell; therefore in the judgment of God after this life there are other pains which are not eternal or infernal, — these are the pains of Purgatory.

Matthew 5:26 truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.

The “prison” alluded to in verse 25 is purgatory, according to Tertullian, St. Cyprian, Origen, St. Ambrose, and St. Jerome, while the “penny” represents the most minor sins that one commits.

Matthew 12:32 And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

If this sin cannot be forgiven after death, it follows that there are others which can be, and this must be in purgatory: precisely the interpretation of St. Augustine, Pope St. Gregory the Great, the Venerable Bede, and St. Bernard, among others.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. [12] Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw – [13] each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. [14] If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. [15] If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

This is a clear and obvious allusion to purgatory. Thus thought St. Cyprian, St. Ambrose, St. Jerome, Pope St. Gregory the Great, Origen, and St. Augustine, who wrote with his usual insight:

ecause it is said, he shall be saved, that fire is thought lightly of. For all that, though we should be saved by fire, yet will that fire be more grievous than anything that man can suffer in this life whatsoever. (Expositions on the Psalms, 38, 2)

Hebrews 12:14 Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. (cf. 12:1, 5-11, 15, 23, Eph 5:5; 1 Thess 4:3; 1 Jn 3:2-3)

Blessed John Henry Cardinal Newman observed (as an Anglican):

Even supposing a man of unholy life were suffered to enter heaven, he would not be happy there; so that it would be no mercy to permit him to enter . . . There is a moral malady which disorders the inward sight and taste; and no man labouring under it is in a condition to enjoy what Scripture calls the fulness of joy in God’s presence, . . . (Sermon on this verse: “Holiness Necessary for Future Blessedness,” 1834)

Revelation 21:27 But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practises abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

The abundance of scriptural evidence for purgatory led to a consensus among the Church fathers: summarized by Protestant church historian Philip Schaff:

These views of the middle state in connection with prayers for the dead show a strong tendency to the Roman Catholic doctrine of Purgatory. (History of the Christian Church, vol. 2, “Ante-Nicene Christianity: A. D. 100-325,” 5th edition, New York: 1889; ch. 12, sec. 156, 604-606)

Good thief promised paradise yet is still suffering the just punishment of His sins.

Lk 23:39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.

40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?

41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.

42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Revelation 21:27
And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Isa 6:5 Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts.

6 Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar:

7 And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged.

Matt 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

Matthew 12:32
And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Shall some sins can be forgiven in the world to come and it can’t be heaven cos no unclean thing can enter there.



The children of Israel in bondage down in Egypt are a type of purgatory as the promised land is a type of heaven:

Isa 6:3 3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory!





Indulgences are one kind grace merited by the passion and blood of Christ, in the treasury of holy mother church dispenses to her children
Jn 1:16

They have nothing to do with sin or salvation, (mercy) upon true repentance but the punishment due to sin. (Justice)

Example
A father may forgive (mercy) his son for hitting a ball thru the window, but the son will have work and pay for the window. (Justice)

Indulgences we’re never sold, that was only an accusation, they were attached to a donation, the English Protestant statement “salvation by the shilling” was complete non-sense!

If we sin after baptism we must repent and confess and receive God’s mercy but then we must do penance to expiate the temporal punishment due to God’s justice for sin and if fail to do so in this life God provides a means to do so by suffering in purgatory, and the prayers and penances of living saints can give relief to those in purgatory.

Isa 6:3 3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory!

All those in the body of Christ the communion of saints share each other’s prayers and merits and Christ’s infinite merits

 

[donadams]

Hey All,
When you defend your point of view on matters of the church, do you quote what some pope said? Or do you quote what Jesus or the New Testament writers said? Popes can be wrong. Scripture is not.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

All three have the same authority!

Why would an apostle have different authority from Christ?
Christ sent them with His authority
Why would what an apostle teaches in person have a different authority that what he writes
Only some apostles wrote some of the truths revealed by Christ

Christ established the church to teach all men. Matt 28:19

 

[donadams]

We must believe and obey both Christ and the church He founded on the apostles (Matt 16:18-19) to teach and sanctify all men unto eternal salvation! (Matt 28:19)

(Not scripture alone)
Sacred Scripture according to the churches cannon and interpretation? Yes!
Scripture alone? No!

Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things by, by whom also he made the worlds;

“Not by scripture alone”!

That’s the nail in the coffin of “Sola scriptura” it is dead and buried, “false doctrine” the doctrine of demons like all the sola’s!


For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. Jn 1:17

Jesus Christ is the way, the truth, and the life! Jn 14:6

And this extends to His apostolic church, Christ and His church are one and inseparable! Acts 9:4 Jn 15:5 eph 5:32 acts 2:42

Jesus Christ is the Light of the world! Jn 8:12
Apostolic church the light of the world! Matt 5:14

Must Hear Jesus Christ! Matt 17:5
Acts 3:23
Must Hear the apostolic church! Matt 18:17 1 Jn 4:6

Authority of Jesus Christ! Matt 28:17
Authority of the apostles! Jn 20:21

Jesus Christ has Reconciliation!
2 cor 5:19
Apostles have ministry of Reconciliation! 2 cor 5:18

Jesus Christ have power to forgive mens sins! Lk 5:20 Jn
Apostles have power to forgive mens sins! Jn 20:23

Jesus Christ is the truth! Jn 14:6
The apostolic church is the pillar of truth! 1 Tim 3:16

For the apostolic authority in Holy church decided and decreed (bound on earth / bound in heaven) the canon of Scripture, and is the only authentic interpreter of scripture!

The Christian faith is revealed by Christ!

Jesus Christ before ascending to heaven gave His apostles the fullness of truth, the apostolic church our mother and teacher is commanded by Him to teach and to sanctify with her sacraments (the promise of the spirit) all men unto eternal salvation! We are commanded to believe and obey! Matt 28:19

How can the Protestant concept: “sacred scripture is the only infallible source of truth” be true? There must be some infallible source that must tell us what is the canon of scripture & has authority to interpret scripture!

 

[Josef]

Hey All,
Even apostles can be wrong.

Galatians 2:11-14 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.
But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

Peter was wrong.
What did Paul use to determine this?
The truth of the gospel.
If Peter was wrong, and, as you claim, he was your first pope, popes can be wrong.
Now that is according to Scripture.
This Scripture is in the Catholic Bible is it not?
Then, if so, we have proof that Scripture, the gospel, is the highest authority.
The pope is subservient to Scripture, as Peter was; as we all are.
The pope cannot create Scripture.
Peter was an apostle before being the leader of the church in Rome.
So he had authority before he had the position.
In fact, as far as I know, the only exception to an apostle writing Scripture, is Luke.
And he was most likely ghostwriting for an apostle. (That's my speculation. I have no proof. I could be wrong.)
Popes are fallible men , the same as the rest of us are.
Fallible men make mistakes.
Who ordered the crusades?
Pope Urban II ordered the first crusade in 1095.
Do you believe the crusades were good Christian acts?

Finally, what are you using to prove your point of view?
The word of the pope?
No.
Why not?
Their word is not the final authority.
Their word is not the Word.

You, Mr. Adams are using the Word as proof of all your points.
That looks like "sola scriptura" in action; and rightly so.
Thank you for showing us that.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

 

[donadams]

Hey All,
Even apostles can be wrong.

Galatians 2:11-14 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.
But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

Peter was wrong.
What did Paul use to determine this?
The truth of the gospel.
If Peter was wrong, and, as you claim, he was your first pope, popes can be wrong.
Now that is according to Scripture.
This Scripture is in the Catholic Bible is it not?
Then, if so, we have proof that Scripture, the gospel, is the highest authority.
The pope is subservient to Scripture, as Peter was; as we all are.
The pope cannot create Scripture.
Peter was an apostle before being the leader of the church in Rome.
So he had authority before he had the position.
In fact, as far as I know, the only exception to an apostle writing Scripture, is Luke.
And he was most likely ghostwriting for an apostle. (That's my speculation. I have no proof. I could be wrong.)
Popes are fallible men , the same as the rest of us are.
Fallible men make mistakes.
Who ordered the crusades?
Pope Urban II ordered the first crusade in 1095.
Do you believe the crusades were good Christian acts?

Finally, what are you using to prove your point of view?
The word of the pope?
No.
Why not?
Their word is not the final authority.
Their word is not the Word.

You, Mr. Adams are using the Word as proof of all your points.
That looks like "sola scriptura" in action; and rightly so.
Thank you for showing us that.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

We must believe and obey both Christ and the church He founded on the apostles (Matt 16:18-19) to teach and sanctify all men unto eternal salvation! (Matt 28:19)

(Not scripture alone)
Sacred Scripture according to the churches cannon and interpretation? Yes!
Scripture alone? No!

Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things by, by whom also he made the worlds;

“Not by scripture alone”!

That’s the nail in the coffin of “Sola scriptura” it is dead and buried, “false doctrine” the doctrine of demons like all the sola’s!


For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. Jn 1:17

Jesus Christ is the way, the truth, and the life! Jn 14:6

And this extends to His apostolic church, Christ and His church are one and inseparable! Acts 9:4 Jn 15:5 eph 5:32 acts 2:42

Jesus Christ is the Light of the world! Jn 8:12
Apostolic church the light of the world! Matt 5:14

Must Hear Jesus Christ! Matt 17:5
Acts 3:23
Must Hear the apostolic church! Matt 18:17 1 Jn 4:6

Authority of Jesus Christ! Matt 28:17
Authority of the apostles! Jn 20:21

Jesus Christ has Reconciliation!
2 cor 5:19
Apostles have ministry of Reconciliation! 2 cor 5:18

Jesus Christ have power to forgive mens sins! Lk 5:20 Jn
Apostles have power to forgive mens sins! Jn 20:23

Jesus Christ is the truth! Jn 14:6
The apostolic church is the pillar of truth! 1 Tim 3:16

For the apostolic authority in Holy church decided and decreed (bound on earth / bound in heaven) the canon of Scripture, and is the only authentic interpreter of scripture!

The Christian faith is revealed by Christ!

Jesus Christ before ascending to heaven gave His apostles the fullness of truth, the apostolic church our mother and teacher is commanded by Him to teach and to sanctify with her sacraments (the promise of the spirit) all men unto eternal salvation! We are commanded to believe and obey! Matt 28:19

How can the Protestant concept: “sacred scripture is the only infallible source of truth” be true? There must be some infallible source that must tell us what is the canon of scripture & has authority to interpret scripture!

An apostle can challenge another apostle on discipline

No problem with crusades or inquisitions per se’

 

[Josef]

Scripture is tradition!
2 thes 2:15

You are misusing 2 Thessalonians 2:15.

2 Thessalonians 2:13-15 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

What Christian traditions were taught by word, or in writing?
Traditions are something you do.
Prayer certainly; probably communion, and baptism also are the essential traditional acts of the believer after salvation.
But you can die without taking communion and still go to heaven.
You can, not be baptized, and still go to heaven.
You cannot blaspheme the Holy Spirit unto death and still go to heaven.
What is the difference?
Salvation, like Scripture, is from God.
Paul is not saying that the Word of God is just a tradition.

Also, if Scripture is just tradition, try changing it.

Deuteronomy 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

Revelation 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Quite frankly, I am surprised by your statement.
Scripture is to be honored and obeyed.
Actually, obedience is how we honor Scripture.

If the ten commandments are just tradition, why follow them!

2 Timothy 3:16-17 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

If the Catholic Church views Scripture as only tradition, I have much less respect for them.
That means when the going gets touch, they can say it's just tradition.
I can take the mark of the beast.
I can take God's name in vain.
I can blaspheme the Holy Spirit.
After all, it's just tradition.

Scripture is the final authority of the believer.


If not by Scripture, why do you use it to prove your points of view?
Why should I follow your points of view if they are just tradition?

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz