Self Righteousness

[childeye]

Right, your faith is what is required.
That faith will then be seen in a confession, not in a denial and ignoring, of sin. Just as your faith in the beginning was seen in a confession of sin.



Are you somehow afraid to acknowledge that your trust in God is somehow something you didn't do, because if you do claim it as such you are guilty of making justification/salvation a works gospel? If so, please show me where Paul said trust in the blood is also among the works that can not justify and condemn a person of trying to earn their justification/salvation.

I believe the shedding of the blood of Christ through his own submission, and in full accordance with the law of the Old Testament, is more about taking away the accusers/Satan's legal ability to hold people accountable for sin in their conscience through the fear of death, than it is about changing one's sinful choices. For one thing, all sin is predicated upon a lie in the first place, a lie we have all fallen victim to in some degree, and yet cannot recover from without mercy and understanding.

I think I understand your points about using Christ as an excuse to sin, and also whether trusting in God is the work of God or the work of man. I might agree with you except much of this dialogue is lost in semantics which leaves me unable to commit either way due to the presence of what I see as a false dichotomy. For to say a man believed the Truth has much to do with the power of the truth to persuade. Yet, faith is necessary to count the Truth as Eternal, knowing that temporal existence cannot fathom eternal things through any other means.

To clear some of that up, I would like to point out that there is a difference between blaming someone for a deliberate sin and being delivered from that sin. One counts sin as a disobedience that could have been avoided simply through a dutiful and faithful obedience. The other involves having knowledge after the sin, that had one had before the sin, they would have not sinned in the first place nor could temptation exist.

These are two different outlooks about how sin happens, which we find in scripture as the Old and New Testament. And these are well represented by the two brothers portrayed in the parable of the prodigal son. Luke 15:11-32. Therefore, there are differing connotations for the phrases "excusing sin" and whether faith is "a work of God or man", both are bad and good depending upon one's respective view. The phrase self -righteousness creates this same dilemma, conjuring two possible self righteous attitudes on two different and opposing sides. This post is an attempt to qualify and define these views as matters of circumstance, rather than right or wrong. That is to say that Satan plays both ends against the middle so as to cause division, so we must see clearly so as to remain temperate.

 

[gracenote]

While waiting on the OP.


Ecclesiastes 7:16
Be not righteous over much; neither make thyself over wise: why shouldest thou destroy thyself?
17 Be not over much wicked, neither be thou foolish: why shouldest thou die before thy time?

The righteousness we have is Christ's righteousness, not ours.

We do sin, but we do not continue in sin that grace might abound.

Wisdom comes from God, and not from our carnal nature.

eddif

Where is the like button? Wish we had one!

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Yes, i have been here before
Its always the same with these types.
"lets run to james, then lets run to hebrews, then lets all end up in Matthew, as we try to delete what the Apostle Paul said'.
Yep.
nothing ever changes.
Even in Paul's day he wrote about these "save myself" types, and stated that they accused him of teaching to "sin that grace would come".
So, these legalists types, who cant stand Grace, .... are since the Cross,.... and will be trying to harm other Christians till Christ comes back.
"nothing new under the sun".

Wow, the condition for faith (I didn't say works as you probably can only hear) equates to saving oneself. Amazing. How did the church become so ignorant of the gospel of grace through faith that now even trust in Christ itself is a damnable work of the law?

I know more about grace than you because I know that grace is conditioned on trusting God through the free gift of faith just as the Bible teaches. Somewhere you missed that very important teaching in the Bible and think that the requirement for my trust in Christ is a damnable work of the law that can not justify simply on the basis that I did it. But feel free to post the scriptures that show you're right and I'm wrong. I'm all ears.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Do you understand that Jesus shed his Blood?
Do you understand that this offer of the shed blood is a free gift?
Do you understand that once this shed blood is applied to MY SINS, that they are GONE?
Do you understand that this shedding of the Blood of Christ for me, once i receive it, > God applies it, and that is the end of it?
So, this exchange of MY SINS for the FREE PARDON that Christ's blood purchased, is a GIFT, that i dont earn and i dont keep.
This means that its GOD HIMSELF who is justifying me based on what CHRIST DID FOR ME, and that is the end of it, regarding my salvation.
Its DONE.
I dont keep it, i dont earn it, i dont lose it.
No Christian does.

Right. You do not earn justification/ salvation. It's a free gift you get through trusting in Christ (not through nothing as you and others contend). You can forfeit the free gift by not trusting in the blood of Christ that sanctified you (Hebrews 10:29 NASB). How in Christ's name is that Paul's damnable works gospel???????? Chapter and verse please. Show me where trust in Christ is a works gospel. Or at least show me where God did my trusting for me so it can be known that it was not something that I did to get the free gift.

 

[Kidron]

I know more about grace than you But feel free to post the scriptures that show you're right and I'm wrong. I'm all ears.

Im really not interested in hearing someone describe themselves as "knowing more" then someone else.
This is conduct that is worried too much about how one appears to others.
And regarding proof........umm, that you have not even attempted to respond to anything ive written, would suggest that ummmmmmm.......
Frankly, that you think that believing the Gospel is "saving yourself", is about as bizarre a point of view as ive ever heard.
Trust me, God wants us to believe that Jesus died on a Cross for our sins and would have us come and take this offer of pardon by faith.
If this doesn't work for you, then, thats very interesting.

K

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Im really not interested in hearing someone describe themselves as "knowing more" then someone else.

Now that's funny. You tell me I don't know about grace, but you do, and then attack when I say I know more about Biblical grace than you do. Oh, the hypocrisy (and it ain't done yet, lol).

This is conduct that is worried too much about how one appears to others.
And regarding proof........umm, that you have not even attempted to respond to anything ive written, would suggest that you are not able to respond.

Why is it that whenever an opponent can't meet a challenge in these forums they respond this way? Ezrider is presently doing this to me in another thread. Like him, I have no choice but to conclude that you simply do not read my posts well enough, or with enough care to actually understand them.

Frankly, that you think that believing the Gospel is "saving yourself", is about as bizarre a point of view as ive ever heard.

Lol, you are the one saying that when you say the condition of faith for salvation is to make faith a damnable work done in order to be saved. Not me.

Trust me, God wants us to believe that Jesus died on a Cross for our sins and would have us come and take this offer of pardon by faith.
If this doesn't work for you, then, thats very interesting.

How is it that you think I've been saying anything else? Why is it you and others can only hear 'works salvation' in every conversation about faith that suggests faith (not works) is a condition for salvation as if that makes faith a damnable work? Except that you have not given me the dignity and respect of actually reading my posts to honestly and fairly understand them. Shame on you!

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Right. You do not earn justification/ salvation. It's a free gift you get through trusting in Christ (not through nothing as you and others contend). You can forfeit the free gift by not trusting in the blood of Christ that sanctified you (Hebrews 10:29 NASB). How in Christ's name is that Paul's damnable works gospel???????? Chapter and verse please. Show me where trust in Christ is a works gospel. Or at least show me where God did my trusting for me so it can be known that it was not something that I did to get the free gift.

Are you going to meet the challenge, or not? I want Bible! Bring it! (if you want to )

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Good stuff. Most believers don't understand that sin was paid for. But the evil of self righteousness(human good) was not.
Rev 20:12~~New American Standard Bible
And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds(human good).

Self righteousness~~It is why the Gospel has been turned into the doctrine of sin and human good and has left the doctrine of the Son.

Don't go away gr8grace3. Surely you've shown, whether you realize it or not, that you have negated your own argument that says even if the believer stops believing he is still saved. But here you say that is a sin that can not be paid for, and I agree. But you have been insisting that there is no sin for which a believer can be condemned for and that unbelief is an evil for which no sacrifice exists. And I agree.

So, it's time to either to abandon the OSAS train in that not all sins of the believer are forgivable, or, if you want to stay on the train, start insisting the believer can not commit the sin that has no forgiveness. So which of your arguments do you want to abandon?

 

[gr8grace3]

.

Don't go away gr8grace3. Surely you've shown, whether you realize it or not, that you have negated your own argument that says even if the believer stops believing he is still saved. But here you say that is a sin that can not be paid for, and I agree. But you have been insisting that there is no sin for which a believer can be condemned for and that unbelief is an evil for which no sacrifice exists. And I agree.

So, it's time to either to abandon the OSAS train, or start insisting the believer can not commit the sin that has no forgiveness. So which of your arguments do you want to abandon?

Oh, I am watching! It is fun to see another Grace believer that can cut to the heart of the matter of your doctrine. And to watch your composure quite rapidly fall.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

.



Oh, I am watching! It is fun to see another Grace believer that can cut to the heart of the matter of your doctrine. And to watch your composure quite rapidly fall.

So predictable, lol.

I've cornered you both and neither one of you can admit it.

That's how my composure has changed. I'm lovin' it.

GOTCHA! Finally! Now be honest and repent of this false doctrine you have been teaching.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I know this all will end this thread BUT IT WAS WORTH IT! TRUTH HAS FINALLY WON!

 

[gr8grace3]

So predictable, lol.

I've cornered you both and neither one of you can admit it.

That's how my composure has changed. I'm lovin' it.

GOTCHA! Finally! Now be honest and repent of this false doctrine you have been teaching.

I will address it with you my friend. Lets start fresh with this post. OK?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

.



Oh, I am watching! It is fun to see another Grace believer that can cut to the heart of the matter of your doctrine. And to watch your composure quite rapidly fall.

So, if you're going to hang around (before this thread gets closed, lol), which argument do you want to abandon? That even the sin of unbelief is covered by Christ's sacrifice (but which you said isn't in this thread), or that a believer simply can not do that? But the latter pretty well makes all the time and effort you've put into your OSAS argument moot. You can't win on either count.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I will address it with you my friend. Lets start fresh with this post. OK?

Bring it, lol.

Explain your duplicity. You have the floor.

 

[gr8grace3]

So, if you're going to hang around (before this thread gets closed, lol), which argument do you want to abandon? That even the sin of unbelief is covered by Christ's sacrifice (but which you said isn't in this thread), or that a believer simply can not do that? But the latter pretty well makes all the time and effort you've put into your OSAS argument moot. You can't win on either count.

Jethro, lets just take one issue at a time OK? Address the unbelief issue first?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jethro, lets just take one issue at a time OK? Address the unbelief issue first?

You got the floor, Sammy.

 

[gr8grace3]

Christ paid for ALL sin on the Cross. God the Father is propitiated through the Cross. His Judgement was satisfied for the payment of ALL sin.

This includes unbelief. Because unbelief is a sin. Human good is not sin, but it is evil.

If someone has never believed in Christ alone for their salvation. Their unbelief brings them to the GWT judgement. And they are judged according to their deeds done in the flesh. Whether a person knowingly tried to save themselves or didn't give a flip. They have a day "in court" at the GWT to plead their case of being good enough. And just notice........they were judged according to their deeds, all their sins were paid for. Including their unbelief, their unbelief was paid for, it just gained them the trip to the GWT judgement to "see" that their good works can't measure up to Christs good deed on the Cross.. And this is why we will see differing degrees of punishment for some. There are no "levels" in belief. You believe or you don't.

Rev 20:13~~New American Standard Bible
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.

This resembles a court room scene. A throne with a judge. books are opened. standing in front of the judge.

They are judged according to their deeds. Not their unbelief,not their sins. Only the evil of their own self righteousness(Human good) is left. This is why Jesus was so rough on the pharisees.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Christ paid for ALL sin on the Cross. God the Father is propitiated through the Cross. His Judgement was satisfied for the payment of ALL sin.
This includes unbelief. Because unbelief is a sin. Human good is not sin, but it is evil.

It's impossible to make an artificial distinction between the evil of a person's self righteousness and their sin.
Self righteousness is a sin. But you say it is unforgivable for the unbeliever on the basis no sacrifice is available for that particular sin (I agree), yet there is one available if you are an unbelieving believer. How does the sacrifice of Christ get applied to the (former) believers unbelief if the way to apply it is through believing? Think carefully. I'm pretty sure I know what your answer is.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If someone has never believed in Christ alone for their salvation. Their unbelief brings them to the GWT judgement. And they are judged according to their deeds done in the flesh. Whether a person knowingly tried to save themselves or didn't give a flip. They have a day "in court" at the GWT to plead their case of being good enough. And just notice........they were judged according to their deeds, all their sins were paid for. Including their unbelief, their unbelief was paid for, it just gained them the trip to the GWT judgement to "see" that their good works can't measure up to Christs good deed on the Cross.

Are you saying only disobedient believers, including Christ rejecting believers (oxymoron) are the only ones who will appear at the GWTJ?

 

[reba]

Many folks will consider others to be self righteous when the one side does not 'see' things the same way..