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Self Righteousness

(Post removed. Does not comply with A&T guidelines. Obadiah)

(Edited, ToS 2.4, Rudeness. Obadiah)

Got it!

Here is the context of 1 John 3:7

I will post the scriptures that lead up to this statement from John.

Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God! Therefore the world does not know us,because it did not know Him. 2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous 1 John 3:1-7


JLB
 
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(Post removed. Does not comply with A&T guidelines. Obadiah)
 
Last edited by a moderator:
(Post removed. Does not comply with A&T guidelines. Obadiah)
 
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I see several people have chosen not to follow my request in post #327, even some who have been warned about this in no uncertain terms by other staff as well. Sorry to have to do this, but editing was done. We have rules for a reason.
 
This is what I believe this verse is saying.
Gal 5:5 for we by the Spirit, by faith, a hope of righteousness do wait for,


Do you believe this verse speaks of a hope, of the righteousness to come?
 
Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous 1 John 3:1-7


JLB
So what you're saying is righteous people do righteous things, and unrighteous people do unrighteous things.

"10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother." (1 John 3:10 NASB)

But I'm told over and over in these forums that it doesn't matter what I do, good or bad, because behavior has nothing to do with being saved.

I see why John makes it a point to say, 'do not be deceived'. I think a lot of people are being deceived into thinking they can be comforted and secure in their unrighteousness not knowing that the faith that saves is the faith that acts righteously--more and more as we grow up into our salvation.

1 Therefore, putting aside all malice and all deceit and hypocrisy and envy and all slander, 2 like newborn babies, long for the pure milk of the word, so that by it you may grow in respect to salvation, 3 if you have tasted the kindness of the Lord." (1 Peter 2:1-3 NASB)
 
So what you're saying is righteous people do righteous things, and unrighteous people do unrighteous things.

"10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother." (1 John 3:10 NASB)

But I'm told over and over in these forums that it doesn't matter what I do, good or bad, because behavior has nothing to do with being saved.

I see why John makes it a point to say, 'do not be deceived'. I think a lot of people are being deceived into thinking they can be comforted and secure in their unrighteousness not knowing that the faith that saves is the faith that acts righteously--more and more as we grow up into our salvation.

1 Therefore, putting aside all malice and all deceit and hypocrisy and envy and all slander, 2 like newborn babies, long for the pure milk of the word, so that by it you may grow in respect to salvation, 3 if you have tasted the kindness of the Lord." (1 Peter 2:1-3 NASB)


Exactly, and as John says - ...everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure. 1 John 3:3

It is almost as this work of purifying ourselves, just as He is pure... is somehow seen as self righteousness.

Then when we read how Peter admonishes us to -

...give all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness,to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins. 2 Peter 1:5-9

I believe their is a cry from the heart of God's people for a true righteousness and holiness, in which His Spirit and power will return to His people to demonstrate the authority and Dominion of God's Kingdom over the power of darkness, as in the days of the early Church.

The demonstration of His Spirit and power, to preach the true Gospel, and heal the sick, and set people free from drugs and all manner of bondage of the evil one.


JLB



 
[See Forum Guidelines. Where is this Biblically supported?]
 
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It's a question of moral superiority, and it doesn't have anything to do with being cleansed from unrighteousness.
 
Do you believe this verse speaks of a hope, of the righteousness to come?
I already told you what I believe that verse is talking about and quoted the Romans verses that I believe support my statement. I'll try to say it differently....
Romans 5:1-2 says that a believer has already been justified so they are not waiting to be justified. It says that the hope that we wait for is the glory of God. We are justified now, we will be justified again or confirmed in glory. That is what we wait for, that final confirmation and the manifestation of the kingdom. The prize that is won at the end of the race.
 
I already told you what I believe that verse is talking about and quoted the Romans verses that I believe support my statement. I'll try to say it differently....
Romans 5:1-2 says that a believer has already been justified so they are not waiting to be justified. It says that the hope that we wait for is the glory of God. We are justified now, we will be justified again or confirmed in glory. That is what we wait for, that final confirmation and the manifestation of the kingdom. The prize that is won at the end of the race.

For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. Galatians 5:5

This says we wait for the righteousness we are hoping for by faith.

Faith is the substance of the thing we are hoping for.

The reality of what we are hoping for by faith is the righteousness that will be manifested, when He comes.

The manifested reality of righteousness we are hoping for.

This is no different than what Romans 5 says.

5 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. Romans 5:1-2

It is by faith we are justified...

Again, faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

If we have faith in Christ for justification, then we are hoping for the reality of the justification to come.

As long as we continue is this hope and are not turned away, until the end, then we will remain in this position of justification, through faith in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Which is exactly what Paul says -

yet now He has reconciled...if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard... Colossians 1:23

As Jesus says -

Those who endure to the end, will be saved... Matthew 24:13

Peter says -

Receiving the end of your faith, the salvation of your souls.
1 Peter 1:9

The reality of Salvation comes at the end of your faith....

Now, we have the hope of salvation that is by faith.

Which is why Hebrews says -

so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28


JLB
 
I already told you what I believe that verse is talking about and quoted the Romans verses that I believe support my statement. I'll try to say it differently....
Romans 5:1-2 says that a believer has already been justified so they are not waiting to be justified. It says that the hope that we wait for is the glory of God. We are justified now, we will be justified again or confirmed in glory. That is what we wait for, that final confirmation and the manifestation of the kingdom. The prize that is won at the end of the race.

I wish that some on this site would take it upon themselves to make an "Official CF Concise Dictionary" to make it easier for some to refer to and avoid a confusion of terms such as appears to be the case on this thread. Alas! wishful thinking, but this below could be a start.

back on topic
I see that there are several terms that are being mixed and jumbled so that confusion is rampant. They are: righteousness, salvation, imputation and sanctification.

SALVATION
it is rooted in the Atonement of Jesus, which is a substitutionary penalty for our sins. The basis for salvation is faith and not works (Titus 3:5; Ephesians 2:8-9). Since salvation is thus based on an event done by Messiah on the Cross, our salvation is simiarly an event in time. The lyrics from Amazing Grace express that well: "Once I was lost, and now I am found"

RIGHTEOUSNESS/JUSTIFICATION
These are legal terms that are almost synonyms. Just as the defendant in a criminal trial is declared guilty, or innocent, both terms indicate that a judge or jury, (both being in a superior position) states that "This person is not guilty" and as a matter of course in the USA, that person cannot be tried again on that particular charge (double jeopardy) This, like salvation is a "historical event" on the life of the believer, However, there is another element to this being declared righteous before God because it has a theological and historical basis, and that is imputation.

IMPUTATION
is akin to the "charging over" of $1 million dollars to your VISA or your checking account daily by another, so that no matter how much you spend in one day, you always have a VISA or checking account that never goes lower than that $1 million dollars. In this case, it is the righteousness of Jesus which is imputed to our "sin account" with God, and the guarantor of that checking account is Jesus Christ, himself. Using banking terms, there will never be a time when our sins will ever be too much for Jesus' atonement,and there will be a NSF or insufficient fund notice given to the believer.

Below, Paul explains that we all have the fallen sin nature of Adam charged to all of humanity because we ALL have sinned... that is why we all deserve death, but because the righteousness of Jesus is "charged over to the believer, God can see only the that exact and same righteousness that Jesus has when he looks at the believer. That is why His righteousness is imputed and not infused as a tea bag makes tea with hot water.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

SANCTIFICATION
comes at the point of time of our conversion, but it is also progressive in that we can grow more like Christ if we choose. Sanctification is unlike salvation, righteousness and justification because there can be a certain "measurement" involved, and that is the fruit in the life of the believer. Fruits do not come instantaneously, but come as a tree matures,and is nurtured in good soil with adequate moisture.

end of "dictionary"
=================================================================================================
That is why it is indeed our salvation is so great, and why it is important to get our terminologies correct. Otherwise, we can be as effective as the three blind men who are touching an elephant at different places, and each tries to tell the others, "THIS is what an elephant looks like!"

In summary, I post this doxology from Paul:
33 Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!

34 “For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor?”
35 “Or who has given a gift to him that he might be repaid?”

36 For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.
The Holy Bible: English Standard Version. (2001). (Ro 11:33–36). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.
 
SALVATION
it is rooted in the Atonement of Jesus,

Actually Jesus blood did not, does not atone for our sins, but rather removes the sin.

11 And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation. Romans 5:11

The word reconciliation is more appropriate here.

The king James says "atonement", however this carries a different meaning than that of the blood of bulls and goats making "atonement" for the sins, which carries the idea of "covering over" rather than removing.

11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.
Hebrews 10:11

And again

For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins. Hebrews 10:4

A distinction in terms.


JLB
 
This is what I'm talking about. The gift of righteousness through faith doesn't make a man righteous. As John said, he who does right is righteous. If you think you are righteous then prove it. Do right.
 
Why do folks have such a hard time complying with rules they agreed too? admin...
 
Why do folks have such a hard time complying with rules they agreed too? admin...

I don't think I broke any rules Reba. At least tell me what I can do better because I don't know.
 
  • Original posts should reference specific scripture and what it is the member wants to say or ask about that scripture.
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1.3: I.... If a member disagrees with a Moderator's action, they are not to take their dispute public.
 
Actually Jesus blood did not, does not atone for our sins, but rather removes the sin.
Please demonstrate where I said exactly that.

11 And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation. Romans 5:11

The word reconciliation is more appropriate here.

This is a very "pregnant word", and is difficult to translate. Indeed the English Standard version uses the word "reconciliation" in verses 5:10 & 11, and the scholars who did that are fare more advanced than I am, but I am not sure that the description of it being a "better word" is appropriate here. For sure, the verbal (proper term) is an Aorist active participle, singular and masculine. With participles, the tense is kinda irrelevant because it is the nature of a participle to show an ongoing action, namely reconciliation. The choice of the past (Aorist) is significant only to the degree that it establishes a time in history whereby the believer who was an enemy of God suddenly became saved, and the reconciliation began, and continues.

The king James says "atonement", however this carries a different meaning than that of the blood of bulls and goats making "atonement" for the sins, which carries the idea of "covering over" rather than removing.

11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.
Hebrews 10:11

The only "problem" that I have with the KJV is that it is a 400+ years-old translation. It is not to say that it is a "bad translation" but because some of the word meanings have changed in those 400 years, we in 2015 can understand it better if different and newer words are used.

And again
For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins. Hebrews 10:4
A distinction in terms. JLB

No snarkiness meant, but there is no parallel between the blood of Jesus Christ and that of bulls and goats. The blood of bulls and other animals is used as a type of the Atonement where Jesus body hung on the Cross as a penalty for our sins, and was eviscerated when the Roman soldier thrust up his spear into the pericardium membrane and into the heart of Jesus to see if He was already dead.

No, I am not arguing with you except to say that you falsely attributed something I did not say to me-- hey we all err at times and to discuss the importance of that Greek word without attempting any "intimidation" about knowledge of Koine Greek.
 
This is what I'm talking about. The gift of righteousness through faith doesn't make a man righteous. As John said, he who does right is righteous. If you think you are righteous then prove it. Do right.

Righteousness is imputed, and it comes by faith. Abraham believed.., and was DECLARED to be righteous by God

Romans 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Genesis 15: 5
And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
7 And he said unto him, I am the LORD that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it.
8 And he said, Lord GOD, whereby shall I know that I shall inherit it?​

Righteousness is not a gift. It is a forensic term whereby the believer has thew righteousness of Jesus Christ "charged over" to his/her account, and that when God the Father looks at the believer, He does not see our sinful nature; rather he sees the sinless nature of Jesus in and on us.
 
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