Seven Year Covenant and Daniel’s 70 weeks

[for_his_glory]

The is illogical.
Jesus described the situation of the rich man as being in torment in flames BEFORE the final judgment.

How can one be cast into the lake of fire before that of God's final judgement on the last day after the tribulation. That would also mean everyone who is in Christ and has died before the return of Christ are now living in the New Jerusalem.

The grave is the place of final judgment of either the resurrection of eternal life with the Father or the resurrection of damnation which is the lake of fire. This all takes place when Christ returns and not before, John 5:28,29; Rev 1:7, 8.

 

[Jim Parker]

How can one be cast into the lake of fire before that of God's final judgement on the last day after the tribulation. That would also mean everyone who is in Christ and has died before the return of Christ are now living in the New Jerusalem.

The grave is the place of final judgment of either the resurrection of eternal life with the Father or the resurrection of damnation which is the lake of fire. This all takes place when Christ returns and not before, John 5:28,29; Rev 1:7, 8.

Jesus said that the rich man died and was in torment in flames BEFORE the last judgment.

The question is not "How can one be cast into the lake of fire before that of God's final judgement on the last day after the tribulation."

Rather, the question is, on what basis do you not accept Jesus comments as a statement of reality?

Jesus' parable does not mention a "lake of fire."

The parable does say, however, the the rich man experienced torment of flames in Hades.
Luk 16:22-24 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom.
The rich man also died and was buried.
And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Then he cried and said, "Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame."

 

[for_his_glory]

Nobody stated (LDS/Mormon) for the 3rd time.

As it stands after much communication, you deny a literal hell being a place of firey torment at death.

Your belief regarding hell is the same as 7th day Adventist and Jehovah's Witnesses.

I agree the teachings of Joseph Smith/LDS Mormons, Charles Taze Russel/ Jehovahs Witnesses, and Ellen G. White/ 7th day Adventism are false teachings and doctrine.

Then why keep bringing it up?

 

[for_his_glory]

The is illogical.
Jesus described the situation of the rich man as being in torment in flames BEFORE the final judgment.

Luke 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: 20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. 27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. 29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Torment and flames are a metaphor Jesus used as in emotional suffering as you can not receive that of what you want as you already sealed your fate. It's like saying I am in torment in the flame of desire. Am I actually being physically tormented in an actual flame of fire, no.

 

[Razeontherock]

The souls under the altar in Rev 6:10 are those who have died a martyr's death in the past for the sake of Christ as their breath/spirit has gone back to God after they died, Genesis 2:7; Ecc 12:7; John 3:13. They are asking God how long will it be until you judge and avenge our blood. In vs. 11 they are told to wait until their fellowservants and brethren should be killed as they were should be fulfilled. The fulfillment will happen during the timing of the mark of the beast in Rev 13 where many will be killed for the sake of Christ as they refuse to denounce Him and take the mark of this beast, Rev 13:15. Then will God's final judgment come when Christ returns and destroys the beast and his false prophet casting them into the lake of fire, Rev 19, 20

Sure, but their soul didn't cease to exist, or hit pause.

They are fully sentient.

Some parts of your theology seem to make no allowance for this as a possibility. I'm not the only one noticing this, and asking you about it.

 

[Truth7t7]

They teach "annihilation." The person is reduced to ashes.
Which means that, when people die and are buried, their bodies decay and "return to dust." Then, at the resurrection, everyone is raised to life again for the judgment. Then those who did evil in life are turned back into dust.
Why even bother to resurrect them if they're just going to be turned right back into dust again?

Wikipedia: Jehovahs Witness Beliefs

Watch Tower publications teach that hell(hades or sheol) is not a place of fiery torment, but rather the "common grave of mankind", a place of unconscious non-existence.

 

[Razeontherock]

To me, the clearest sign is the rebirth of Israel as a nation.
Plus, their not less than miraculous victories in the 5 wars since their rebirth against overwhelming odds seems to me to be God's hand.

I'm glad to see you say this. So many say that current Israel has nothing to do with Biblical Israel, which is a claim I find so bizarre I've never even asked for their reasoning.

There's also the bit about their border being visible from the air, because it's green rather than desert.

Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth? (Luke 18:8b)

I see this as the only time Jesus ever expressed doubt. Hopefully it's just a figure of speech

 

[Razeontherock]

The Bible teaches that this "Hell" will be delivered up to meet Jesus Christ at his coming Isa 14:9?

Isaiah 14:9KJV
Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
.

This is not talking about Jesus (the way Isaiah so often does)

It very clearly refers to "the king of babylon," which I take to be figurative language used to refer to the Babylon of Revelation, or beast, false prophet and/or antichrist so often discussed in this section.

Hell will meet the king of babylon when he comes, and this passage then goes on to refer to this same character as Lucifer (at least in the KJV)

 

[Razeontherock]

.

But, aside from definitely NOT wanting to end up there, I don't think we should try to put to fine a point on the exact meaning of the words used to refer to "hell" in the Bible.

No extra charge.

iakov the fool

LOTS of bandwidth has been devoted to attacking people over these fine points, just in the short time I've been here ...

Ironic, isn't it?

 

[Jim Parker]

LOTS of bandwidth has been devoted to attacking people over these fine points, just in the short time I've been here ...

Ironic, isn't it?

It's an opportunity for everyone to be able to say, "Har-RUMPH!"

 

[Razeontherock]

(Notice: The place, as no real name is given, where the unsaved go is everlasting punishment, and not everlasting punishing. The punishment is eternal in its results, not in its duration. Unquenchable fire is a fire that cannot be quenched or put out until everything in its path is burned up.

So the wicked are banished to California?

Lol

 

[Razeontherock]

It's an opportunity for everyone to be able to say, "Har-RUMPH!"

Good point. I have not harumphed in far too long. Maybe everyone needs a good harumphing now and again?

I think the Beatles wrote a song about it:

"All you need is harumphed
All you need is har umph
Harumph is all you need"

 

[Truth7t7]

To me, the clearest sign is the rebirth of Israel as a nation.
Plus, their not less than miraculous victories in the 5 wars since their rebirth against overwhelming odds seems to me to be God's hand.

Great tribulation? There was a series on TV about the 20th century; "The Century of Warfare." IT started and ended with war in the Balkans.
There were probable 250 million people killed in wars and murdered by their own governments plus hundreds of cities reduced to rubble and the first use of nuclear weapons.
On top of that million died of the "Spanish Flu" and we've had multiple diseases arise that we never heard of before like Ebola and AIDS.
And there seems to be constant famine, drought, and starvation around the world. (When there isn't flooding, earthquakes, as well as hurricanes and cyclones)
Then there's the persecution of Christians by atheist/communist nations and Muslim nations where people think they are serving "Allah" by killing Christians.
So, yeah, these could be signs.

And it could get a lot worse.

Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth? (Luke 18:8b)

I agree with your quote in Luke 18:8, a picture of where things will be at the return of Jesus, and yes it could be alot worse.

 

[Truth7t7]

How can one be cast into the lake of fire before that of God's final judgement on the last day after the tribulation. That would also mean everyone who is in Christ and has died before the return of Christ are now living in the New Jerusalem.

The grave is the place of final judgment of either the resurrection of eternal life with the Father or the resurrection of damnation which is the lake of fire. This all takes place when Christ returns and not before, John 5:28,29; Rev 1:7, 8.

You deny the existence of Hell as a place of torment upon the wickeds physical death, the Jehovah's witnesses believe the same as they also use your term "grave" and they also deny the firey flame of torment.

Wikipedia: Jehovah's Witnesses Beliefs

Watch Tower publications teach that hell(hades or sheol) is not a place of fiery torment, but rather the "common grave of mankind", a place of unconscious non-existence.

 

[Truth7t7]

This is not talking about Jesus (the way Isaiah so often does)

It very clearly refers to "the king of babylon," which I take to be figurative language used to refer to the Babylon of Revelation, or beast, false prophet and/or antichrist so often discussed in this section.

Hell will meet the king of babylon when he comes, and this passage then goes on to refer to this same character as Lucifer (at least in the KJV)

I agree, my usage of Isaiah 14 was to show "Hell" and the "Lake Of Fire" are two seperate literal places.

The person I was conversing with believes the "Lake Of Fire" is the only place of torment, and denies a current literal "Hell" in flaming fire, where the wicked go upon death, they teach it's just a grave/pit no torment, just like the org below.

Wikipedia: Jehovah's Witnesses Beliefs

Watch Tower publications teach that hell(hades or sheol) is not a place of fiery torment, but rather the "common grave of mankind", a place of unconscious non-existence.

 

[Truth7t7]

(Notice: The place, as no real name is given, where the unsaved go is everlasting punishment, and not everlasting punishing. The punishment is eternal in its results, not in its duration.

The place of eternal torment for the unsaved wicked does have a name, it's called "The Lake Of Fire", literal torment, no rest day or night.

"The Punishment Is Eternal In It's Duration"!

Revelation 14:11KJV
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Revelation 20:14KJV
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[for_his_glory]

You deny the existence of Hell as a place of torment upon the wickeds physical death, the Jehovah's witnesses believe the same as they also use your term "grave" and they also deny the firey flame of torment.

Wikipedia: Jehovah's Witnesses Beliefs

Watch Tower publications teach that hell(hades or sheol) is not a place of fiery torment, but rather the "common grave of mankind", a place of unconscious non-existence.

Are you still trying to claim I am a Jehovah witness for this simple fact...................sheesh!!!

This s what they believe about hell:
They totally deny the existence of the traditional Christian view of Hell. Satan is regarded as having created the concept of Hellfire in order to turn people against God. They believe that hell is the "common grave of mankind" where people go when they die. They are not conscious there. Unbelievers simply cease to exist at death. Believers remain in death until the resurrection.

The only thing I agree with in this statement are the words, traditional Christian view, as so many teachings are that of tradition doctrines of man passed down and not what scripture already teaches.

Jesus used many spiritual metaphors in His teachings like the parables for example and that of the rich man and Lazarus. It's like using a metaphor for a hard rain saying it's raining cats and dogs. Is it really raining cats and dogs or is that a description of how hard it is raining.

 

[for_his_glory]

Sure, but their soul didn't cease to exist, or hit pause.

They are fully sentient.

Some parts of your theology seem to make no allowance for this as a possibility. I'm not the only one noticing this, and asking you about it.

The soul departs from us when we physically die like that of Rachel in Genesis 35:18 as it is eternal. Exodus 31:14 and Proverbs 11:30 are two examples of people referred to as souls as the human soul is created by God who gave breath to it, Genesis 2:7; Jeremiah 38:16.

The soul can be lost or saved as it belongs to God, Ezekiel 18:4; James 1:21. The soul is the part of the Spiritually born again that is purified and protected by the Holy Spirit and truth, 1 Peter 1:22 and Jesus is the great Shepherd of souls, 1 Peter 2:25.

These are the souls we read of in Rev 6:9-11 that are under the altar as they are told to rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Death and hell are destroyed as there will be no more need of them. After the unrighteous are raised up when Christ returns, John 5:28, 29, and are judged and thrown into the lake of fire, Rev 20:13-15, as the sea, death and hell (grave) gave up those who were asleep in the grave to stand in God’s Great White throne judgment where the books are opened and another book opened that is the lamb’s Book of Life

Read 1Corinthians 15:54-57 and Rev 20:11-15 as it is death and hell thrown into the lake of fire that is the second death, not the unrighteous being the second death as they were delivered up for judgment first, John 5:28,29, and then death and hell were thrown into the lake of fire.

 

[for_his_glory]

The place of eternal torment for the unsaved wicked does have a name, it's called "The Lake Of Fire", literal torment, no rest day or night.

I should have said geographically as we know it's called the lake of fire, but yet have no idea or concept of where it is.

 

[Truth7t7]

The soul departs from us when we physically die like that of Rachel in Genesis 35:18 as it is eternal. Exodus 31:14 and Proverbs 11:30 are two examples of people referred to as souls as the human soul is created by God who gave breath to it, Genesis 2:7; Jeremiah 38:16.

The soul can be lost or saved as it belongs to God, Ezekiel 18:4; James 1:21. The soul is the part of the Spiritually born again that is purified and protected by the Holy Spirit and truth, 1 Peter 1:22 and Jesus is the great Shepherd of souls, 1 Peter 2:25.

These are the souls we read of in Rev 6:9-11 that are under the altar as they are told to rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Death and hell are destroyed as there will be no more need of them. After the unrighteous are raised up when Christ returns, John 5:28, 29, and are judged and thrown into the lake of fire, Rev 20:13-15, as the sea, death and hell (grave) gave up those who were asleep in the grave to stand in God’s Great White throne judgment where the books are opened and another book opened that is the lamb’s Book of Life

Read 1Corinthians 15:54-57 and Rev 20:11-15 as it is death and hell thrown into the lake of fire that is the second death, not the unrighteous being the second death as they were delivered up for judgment first, John 5:28,29, and then death and hell were thrown into the lake of fire.

Were not talking about the righteous saved.

You deny that there is a current "Hell" of firey toement, where the wicked souls go to upon death.

The wicked soul does not return to God.