No and no as hell is only the grave, not the lake of fire, Rev 20:13, 14. Luke 16:22-26 is only a parable and not something that actually happened as it's only an analogy Jesus was teaching like all His parables are.
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Seven Year Covenant and Daniel’s 70 weeks
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No and no as hell is only the grave, not the lake of fire, Rev 20:13, 14. Luke 16:22-26 is only a parable and not something that actually happened as it's only an analogy Jesus was teaching like all His parables are.
Jim Parker
Member
To me, the clearest sign is the rebirth of Israel as a nation.
Plus, their not less than miraculous victories in the 5 wars since their rebirth against overwhelming odds seems to me to be God's hand.
Great tribulation? There was a series on TV about the 20th century; "The Century of Warfare." IT started and ended with war in the Balkans.
There were probable 250 million people killed in wars and murdered by their own governments plus hundreds of cities reduced to rubble and the first use of nuclear weapons.
On top of that million died of the "Spanish Flu" and we've had multiple diseases arise that we never heard of before like Ebola and AIDS.
And there seems to be constant famine, drought, and starvation around the world. (When there isn't flooding, earthquakes, as well as hurricanes and cyclones)
Then there's the persecution of Christians by atheist/communist nations and Muslim nations where people think they are serving "Allah" by killing Christians.
So, yeah, these could be signs.
And it could get a lot worse.
Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth? (Luke 18:8b)
Truth7t7
Member
God's words clearly teaches "Hell" is a current place in the nether parts of the earth Ezk 31:16?
The Bible teaches that the Angels cast out of heaven are currently in this earthly "Hell" 2 Peter 2:4?
The Bible teaches that this "Hell" will be delivered up to meet Jesus Christ at his coming Isa 14:9?
The Bible teaches "Hell" and the "Lake of Fire" are different places, as "Hell" will be cast into the "Lake Of Fire" Rev 20:13-14?
How do you deny "Hell" is a literal place, where the wicked Angels and dead men's soul's currently exist?
Psalm 16:10KJV
For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Proverbs 9:18KJV
But he knoweth not that the dead are there; and that her guests are in the depths of hell.
Isaiah 14:9KJV
Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
Ezekiel 31:16KJV
I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit: and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be comforted in the nether parts of the earth.
Amos 9:2KJV
Though they dig into hell, thence shall mine hand take them; though they climb up to heaven, thence will I bring them down:
Matthew 5:30KJV
And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Matthew 10:28KJV
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
2 Peter 2:4KJV
For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
Revelation 20:13KJV
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
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And your point being? All these scriptures speak of hell as being the grave where the dead go to until the day of judgment, John 5:28, 29.
We have always been taught hell is a place where non-believers in God go to for eternity, but according to scripture this is not what hell is. Hell is described as the world of the dead, a place where the departed go that have died as being lowered in a grave/pit. There they are kept until the return of Christ to either stand in Gods Great White Throne judgment for those who are not found written in the Lambs Book of Life, Rev 20:11-15, or those who have died in Christ that will stand in his judgment to give an account for the things done here on earth, 2 Corinthians 5:10.
Hell is not the lake of fire as God gives us a description of the lake of fire as in fire and brimstone which can be used literal as in Sodom and Gomorrah burned to ashes and as a metaphor for torment, suffering, punishment or as Matthew 8:12 describes it as outer darkness. The New Testament description is a bottomless pit (abyss) (Revelation 20:3), a lake (Revelation 20:14), darkness (Matthew 25:30), death (Revelation 2:11), destruction (2 Thessalonians 1:9), everlasting torment (Revelation 20:10), a place of wailing and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 25:30), and a place of gradated punishment (Matthew 11:20-24; Luke 12:47-48; Revelation 20:12-13), everlasting fire Matthew 25:41, everlasting punishment, Matthew 25:46, lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Strong's Exhaustive Concordance: Hell
Hebrew # 7585 Sheol, Hades, or the world of the dead, grave, hell, pit
Greek # 86 place of departed souls, grave, hell
Jim Parker
Member
The Bible does not give a technically specific definition of "hell."
We do get clear indications that it is a very unpleasant place.
Mat 25:41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:"
And
Luk 16:22-24 “So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ "
So, "hell" seems to be a place of torment and flames.
The most common word used to refer to hell in the NT is "Gehenna" (γέεννα) which was a place where fire burned continually.
But, aside from definitely NOT wanting to end up there, I don't think we should try to put to fine a point on the exact meaning of the words used to refer to "hell" in the Bible.
No extra charge.
iakov the fool
Truth7t7
Member
I fully agree hell and the lake of fire are two different places, hell is the present abode of the evil angels and evil souls.
You deny hell is represented by fire and torment, a fire that will never be quenched?
You suggest a pit/grave, and you disregard "Unquenchable Fire" and pass this off as a parable, Why?
Mark 9:45 below isn't a parable?
Mark 9:45KJV
And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
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Truth7t7
Member
I agree hell is the current abode of the dead wicked, and it's stated to be "Unquenchable Fire", i'll pass on the barbeque, thank you Lord Jesus!The Bible does not give a technically specific definition of "hell."
We do get clear indications that it is a very unpleasant place.
Mat 25:41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:"
And
Luk 16:22-24 “So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ "
So, "hell" seems to be a place of torment and flames.
The most common word used to refer to hell in the NT is "Gehenna" (γέεννα) which was a place where fire burned continually.
But, aside from definitely NOT wanting to end up there, I don't think we should try to put to fine a point on the exact meaning of the words used to refer to "hell" in the Bible.
No extra charge.
iakov the fool
There are some that don't believe "Hell" is currently a place of torment and fire unquenchable for the wicked, they view Luke 16 in the parable of the rich man in "Hell" being tormented by fire as a Jesus story parable?
It appears to me that Mark 9:45 & Luke 16:23 "Hell" are the same fire that is not quenched?
As is clearly seen Mark 9:45 isn't a parable?
Mark 9:45KJV
And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Luke 16:22-24KJV
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
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The Bible does not give a technically specific definition of "hell."
We do get clear indications that it is a very unpleasant place.
Mat 25:41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:"
And
Luk 16:22-24 “So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ "
So, "hell" seems to be a place of torment and flames.
The most common word used to refer to hell in the NT is "Gehenna" (γέεννα) which was a place where fire burned continually.
But, aside from definitely NOT wanting to end up there, I don't think we should try to put to fine a point on the exact meaning of the words used to refer to "hell" in the Bible.
No extra charge.
iakov the fool
Words and their meanings need to be defined especially within the parables Jesus taught. You and I have had this discussion in the past where I have shown you many scriptures, especially Rev 20:14, that gives description of hell only being the grave/pit and not the lake of fire. How can Satan cast out Satan as that was a parable taught by Jesus in Mark 3:23-27 just as Luke 16:22-24 was a parable of torment one carries to the grave/hell/pit.
Plus this needs to be a separate topic as it has nothing to do with the seventy weeks of Daniel even though it was Truth7t7 who brought it up.
Truth7t7
Member
Hell is a current place of torment, that is as a burning firey flame, unquenchable fire.
I fully agree that Hell and the Lake Of Fire are different places, however Mark 9:45 isn't a parable, that describes "Hell" as unquenchable fire, and this is in perfect agreement with Luke 16:22-24
You pass hell off as a pit/grave?
It's a burning unquenchable firey pit/grave, you disregard the fire, why?
Mark 9:45KJV
And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Luke 16:22-24KJV
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
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You are right as Mark 9:45 is not part of the parables Jesus taught, but yet an illustration of before this body dies and lowered in the grave we had better be prepared to be with the Lord when He returns. It's the same as these verses below.
John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Life or damnation is made after being placed in the grave/hell/pit before that of Christ return on the last day, John 6:40 which ends the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy. Words do need to be defined in the sense of how they are used.
Jim Parker
Member
If a parable does not represent reality then it is a worthless fairy tale.
Strong's Exhaustive Concordance: Hell
Hebrew # 7585 Sheol, Hades, or the world of the dead, grave, hell, pit
Greek # 86 place of departed souls, grave, hell
Greek # 1067 Gehenna, the Valley of the sons of Hinnom South of Jerusalem, figuratively and literal of place of punishment.
Greek # 5020. Tartaroo tar-tar-o'-o from Tartaros (the deepest abyss of Hades); to incarcerate in eternal torment:--cast down to hell.
Hades is the English of the Greek word ᾅδης, just as Gehenna is the English for the Greek word γέεννα and Tartaros is the English word for the Greek word ταρταρόω
The English word hell, back in 1611, meant about the same as Hades, that being covered or unseen as in grave/pit. We do not see those in the grave as they are unseen to the eye as they are covered with dirt, or some placed in a tomb. The word hell is derived from the Saxon helan, to cover, and signifying merely the covered, or invisible place. The habitation of those who have gone from the visible terrestrial region to the world of spirits.
Jude 1:7 clearly states an example of eternal fire. This is the same Greek word that is used for everlasting fire and everlasting punishment as used in Matthew 18:8 and Matthew 25:41,46 (Notice: The place, as no real name is given, where the unsaved go is everlasting punishment, and not everlasting punishing. The punishment is eternal in its results, not in its duration. Unquenchable fire is a fire that cannot be quenched or put out until everything in its path is burned up.
If hell does not represent final judgment of life or damnation after death then there is no judgment.
Truth7t7
Member
Agreed!
Truth7t7
Member
Hell represents the place of firey torment that the wicked souls are held, prior to the final judgment and lake of fire.
Hell is not just a pit/grave, its exactly as the parable explains it to be, and Mark 9:45 confirms this.
As it stands after much communication, you deny a literal hell being a place of firey torment at death.
Your belief is the same as 7th Day Adventist and Jehovahs Witnesses, who also deny hell being a place of literal firey torment at death.
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If hell is fiery torment then why is God going to cast death and hell into something that is already a fiery torment of eternal punishment? Rev 20:14.
BTW, Get off the LDS and JW as I am neither one and have no time for their false doctrines.
Truth7t7
Member
Nobody stated (LDS/Mormon) for the 3rd time.
As it stands after much communication, you deny a literal hell being a place of firey torment at death.
Your belief regarding hell is the same as 7th day Adventist and Jehovah's Witnesses.
I agree the teachings of Joseph Smith/LDS Mormons, Charles Taze Russel/ Jehovahs Witnesses, and Ellen G. White/ 7th day Adventism are false teachings and doctrine.
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Jim Parker
Member
The is illogical.
Jesus described the situation of the rich man as being in torment in flames BEFORE the final judgment.
Truth7t7
Member
100% correct, immediately upon death the wicked are delivered to hell fire, just as the parable states.
The 7th day Adventist and Jehovahs Witnesses also deny hell's existence as a place of torment after death, they teach it's just a pit/grave, no firey torment.
Jim Parker
Member
They teach "annihilation." The person is reduced to ashes.
Which means that, when people die and are buried, their bodies decay and "return to dust." Then, at the resurrection, everyone is raised to life again for the judgment. Then those who did evil in life are turned back into dust.
Why even bother to resurrect them if they're just going to be turned right back into dust again?