Should Christians Fight In Wars ?

[Sissy]

And I'll ask you this one for the 3rd time Sissy:

Were Christians right to submit to and fight for the Third Reich Nazi army which by your reckoning was God ordained.

No pressure>>>


.....tick......tock......tick......tock

I'm gonna start calling you Mr. Ants in the Pants!

You seem to think that I just made up the fact that there is no power that has not been assigned by God.

Jesus Himself tells the authorities that they could have no power at all if it was not given to them by God.

John 19
(11) Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.
​

And Paul (or more correctly, the Holy Spirit) confirms it.

Romans 13
(1) Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
​

It may be hard for us mere humans to comprehend how God operates.
But whether our feelings comprehend it or not, we should not be so arrogant as to call God unjust.

And doesn't the camp you reside in at the moment (the lay down arms camp) propose that no one should have ever stood up to the Nazis and put an end to the atrocities?

I propose (and this is strictly speculation of me contemplating the "WHY" of the holocaust) that this tragic event gave way for the sympathy of Jews, and led to the establishment of the state of Israel.
And wasn't that God's plan, to set up the whore of Babylon?

Job asked God "WHY" God was allowing him to be persecuted.
It should be noted that God never answered that specific question to Job.
Instead, God told Job that how He carried out His plans was beyond the comprehension of Job.
Job graciously agreed to let God's will be done, no matter how "unfair" it seemed to Job at the time.

John 15
(13) Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
​

It would be hard to carry this love out if God gave no one power to take a life.

In order for Christ to lay down His life, there had to be an authority in power to carry out the death of Christ.
But it was also within God's plan.
If God had not ordained an authoritative civil body to kill another, our redemption would be non-existent.



God gave evil nations the power to overcome Israel at times.
And then He would strengthen Israel to overcome the evil nations at times.

And I believe He still gives nations power at times to offset the others.

Now, whether one chooses to believe that God ordained the USA as the "good guy" with the most power at the time, or the "bad guy", is up for debate.

But whoever has the most power at any given time, it is per God.
And there is a purpose, whether we see it or not.

 

[Strangelove]

Sissy>>>

Were Christians right to submit to and fight for the Third Reich Nazi army which by your reckoning was God ordained.

A simple Yes or No will do.

 

[Bazz1040]

And I'll ask you this one for the 3rd time Sissy:

Were Christians right to submit to and fight for the Third Reich Nazi army which by your reckoning was God ordained.

No pressure>>>


.....tick......tock......tick......tock

There are two ways a Christian can deal with a difficult or challenging situation. They can pray about it and trust God to take of it, or they can take matters into their own hands. The first one is the better way the latter is the way the people of the world deal with it.


Even ancient Israel was told by Moses to stand still and see how God will deliver them from the Egyptians. But as time went by because they were a carnal people they wanted to be like other Nations and fight for themselves, God allowed them to and used men like David.<O:p</O:p

 

[Elijah674]

I'm gonna start calling you Mr. Ants in the Pants!

You seem to think that I just made up the fact that there is no power that has not been assigned by God.

Jesus Himself tells the authorities that they could have no power at all if it was not given to them by God.

John 19
(11) Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.
​

And Paul (or more correctly, the Holy Spirit) confirms it.

Romans 13
(1) Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
​

It may be hard for us mere humans to comprehend how God operates.
But whether our feelings comprehend it or not, we should not be so arrogant as to call God unjust.

And doesn't the camp you reside in at the moment (the lay down arms camp) propose that no one should have ever stood up to the Nazis and put an end to the atrocities?

I propose (and this is strictly speculation of me contemplating the "WHY" of the holocaust) that this tragic event gave way for the sympathy of Jews, and led to the establishment of the state of Israel.
And wasn't that God's plan, to set up the whore of Babylon?

Job asked God "WHY" God was allowing him to be persecuted.
It should be noted that God never answered that specific question to Job.
Instead, God told Job that how He carried out His plans was beyond the comprehension of Job.
Job graciously agreed to let God's will be done, no matter how "unfair" it seemed to Job at the time.

John 15
(13) Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
​

It would be hard to carry this love out if God gave no one power to take a life.

In order for Christ to lay down His life, there had to be an authority in power to carry out the death of Christ.
But it was also within God's plan.
If God had not ordained an authoritative civil body to kill another, our redemption would be non-existent.



God gave evil nations the power to overcome Israel at times.
And then He would strengthen Israel to overcome the evil nations at times.

And I believe He still gives nations power at times to offset the others.

Now, whether one chooses to believe that God ordained the USA as the "good guy" with the most power at the time, or the "bad guy", is up for debate.

But whoever has the most power at any given time, it is per God.
And there is a purpose, whether we see it or not.

Acts 5 (again)
[17] Then the high priest rose up, and all they that were with him, (which is the sect of the Sadducees,) and were filled with indignation,
[18] And laid their hands on the apostles, and put them in the common prison.
[19] But the angel of the Lord by night opened the prison doors, and brought them forth, and said,
[20] Go, stand and speak in the temple to the people all the words of this life.
[21] And when they heard that, they entered into the temple early in the morning, and taught. But the high priest came, and they that were with him, and called the council together, and all the senate of the children of Israel and sent to the prison to have them brought.
[22] But when the officers came, and found them not in the prison, they returned, and told,
[23] Saying, The prison truly found we shut with all safety, and the keepers standing without before the doors: but when we had opened, we found no man within.
[24] Now when the high priest and the captain of the temple and the chief priests heard these things, they doubted of them whereunto this would grow.
[25] Then came one and told them, saying, Behold, the men whom ye put in prison are standing in the temple, and teaching the people.
[26] Then went the captain with the officers, and brought them without violence: for they feared the people, lest they should have been stoned.
[27] And when they had brought them, they set them before the council: and the high priest asked them,
[28] Saying, Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man's blood upon us.
[29] Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

Rom. 13 only has governments dealing with the second tabel of the ten's duty with mankind. Never does God allow Caesar to get involved with the first table (1-4) putting Them FIRST! Read over Rom. 13 & see for yourself. It was Christ Himself that gave this 'REQUIRED' SEPERATION!

--Elijah

 

[Strangelove]

John 15
(13) Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

It would be hard to carry this love out if God gave no one power to take a life.
​

How about if a man sacrificed himself to save the life of his friends....say....by donating both his kidney's but dying himself in the process.

That would fulfill John 15 with no taking of another persons life required. No soldiers...no killing. Why does that verse need to be about war or make war right? It's simply talking about sacrifice and love.

Your warping things.


​

 

[Medievalarmy]

The Christians and the saints at the end of the great tribulation after the rapture, there is the final battle between Jesus and the Antichrist. This final battle takes place at Megiddo, which means Armageddon. The outcome is already been decided: Jesus wins.

 

[cyberjosh]

In regards to the question in the title: the Christian theologian Peter Chelčický did not think Christians should fight wars. He was a Hussite, a Bohemian follower of Jan Hus, who lived just before the Reformation. He also did not think Christians should even bother to defend themselves if evil assaults them, in compliance with Jesus' command that we should not resist an evil person. I think he takes it too far though, and I do believe self defense is biblically waranted, but I do believe Chelčický was on to something with his condemning wars. Early Church Fathers forbade Christians to enroll in any government's military. You are at the whim of the Government to fight their wars, whether good or bad, and that can lead to unfortunate scenarios. I personally could not forgive myself if I took another person's life in war. I do not know how I could reconcile it morally with my faith and the commands of Christ. One more reason I am a happy civilian, no doubt though protected by our armed forces who defend us. I cannot condone aggression though.

"First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity" (1 Timothy 2:1-2).

 

[jasoncran]

In regards to the question in the title: the Christian theologian Peter Chelčický did not think Christians should fight wars. He was a Hussite, a Bohemian follower of Jan Hus, who lived just before the Reformation. He also did not think Christians should even bother to defend themselves if evil assaults them, in compliance with Jesus' command that we should not resist an evil person. I think he takes it too far though, and I do believe self defense is biblically waranted, but I do believe Chelčický was on to something with his condemning wars. Early Church fathers forbade Christians to enroll in any government's military. You are at the whim of the Government to fight their wars, whether good or bad, and that can lead to unfortunate scenarios. I personally could not forgive myself if I took another person's life in war. I do not know how I could reconcile it morally with my faith and the commands of Christ. One more reason I am a happy civilian, no doubt though protected by our armed forces who defend us. I cannot condone aggression though.

"First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity" (1 Timothy 2:1-2).

that is why we need to have men who will take office and follow god's commandments in thier hearts.

even in self-defense you will feel that way. taking a life is never easy or light thing to do.

if i must die, i contemplated on what that is that i am going to die for. i can live with my decision.

one must take that into consideration when raising the right hand in an oath of enlistment.

josh, in some countries its mandatory that you serve ie isreal, germany, sweden etc. what then?

 

[Bazz1040]

that is why we need to have men who will take office and follow god's commandments in thier hearts.

even in self-defense you will feel that way. taking a life is never easy or light thing to do.

if i must die, i contemplated on what that is that i am going to die for. i can live with my decision.

one must take that into consideration when raising the right hand in an oath of enlistment.

josh, in some countries its mandatory that you serve ie isreal, germany, sweden etc. what then?

I would like you to show me in the New Testament, which is of the New Covenant that support what you are saying. Where in the New Testament do you read the Jewish Christians fought (Jesus told the
disciples to flee to the mountains when they see the abomination that Daniel spoke of) to prevent the destruction of the Jewish Nation or tried to liberate the Nation from Roman occupation?


Jesus said to flee not to fight
Matthew 24:15-20<O:p</O:p

 

[Elijah674]

In regards to the question in the title: the Christian theologian Peter Chelčický did not think Christians should fight wars. He was a Hussite, a Bohemian follower of Jan Hus, who lived just before the Reformation. He also did not think Christians should even bother to defend themselves if evil assaults them, in compliance with Jesus' command that we should not resist an evil person. I think he takes it too far though, and I do believe self defense is biblically waranted, but I do believe Chelčický was on to something with his condemning wars. Early Church fathers forbade Christians to enroll in any government's military. You are at the whim of the Government to fight their wars, whether good or bad, and that can lead to unfortunate scenarios. I personally could not forgive myself if I took another person's life in war. I do not know how I could reconcile it morally with my faith and the commands of Christ. One more reason I am a happy civilian, no doubt though protected by our armed forces who defend us. I cannot condone aggression though.

"First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity" (1 Timothy 2:1-2).

Good message, although I am not much interested in the Jer.17:5 arm of flesh stuff, I did like your missives insight! And how about USA Laws such as the one that will find its way here soon perhaps? The 666 law to force worship even though it might just go along with the large majority of Christian's theology?? (see also Matt. 22:35-40)

I say a law pertaining 'to Worship' not the second table's duty to man of Rom. 13. And don't run off as you suggested over in the Heb. study;)

---Elijah

 

[Adstar]

that is why we need to have men who will take office and follow god's commandments in thier hearts.

even in self-defense you will feel that way. taking a life is never easy or light thing to do.

if i must die, i contemplated on what that is that i am going to die for. i can live with my decision.

one must take that into consideration when raising the right hand in an oath of enlistment.

josh, in some countries its mandatory that you serve ie isreal, germany, sweden etc. what then?

You don't serve and you take whatever penalty they decide you must pay. If thats prison then so be it.

And also:

"one must take that into consideration when raising the right hand in an oath of enlistment."

oath of enlistment... Correct and those who believe Jesus believe His Word when He says:

Matthew 5
33 “Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform your oaths to the Lord.’ 34 But I say to you, do not swear at all: neither by heaven, for it is God’s throne; 35 nor by the earth, for it is His footstool; nor by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. 36 Nor shall you swear by your head, because you cannot make one hair white or black. 37 But let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No.’ For whatever is more than these is from the evil one.

But Jesus says to you Do Not Swear an Oath at all. And whatever is more that the examples given is from the EVIL one. That's right satan.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[jasoncran]

then i will ask you this.

do you borrow money?
did you mortage your home?
rent
sign any contracts as those my friends are oaths
oh wait in my state of florida in order to have any commercial drivers license one must swear an oath.

doesnt the bible say owe no man anything?

so lets see here
according to adstar's way of thinking if i am taking this correct and if not, i will gladly retract

one cant:
be a cop
vote
sign contracts or borrow money
be a politician

careful when you tell us that oaths arent to be done and fail to see that a contract is an oath.

 

[jasoncran]

I would like you to show me in the New Testament, which is of the New Covenant that support what you are saying. Where in the New Testament do you read the Jewish Christians fought (Jesus told the
disciples to flee to the mountains when they see the abomination that Daniel spoke of) to prevent the destruction of the Jewish Nation or tried to liberate the Nation from Roman occupation?


Jesus said to flee not to fight
Matthew 24:15-20<O:p</O:p

agian that is because they cant fight, hard to fight when you dont have rights! ie no one will let you have food, work without the mark of the beast.

they wont have the means to defend themselves against a larger professional army. or be able to form a large group to organise an effective resistance.

when they are being slaughtered and forced into hiding

 

[Bazz1040]

agian that is because they cant fight, hard to fight when you dont have rights! ie no one will let you have food, work without the mark of the beast.

they wont have the means to defend themselves against a larger professional army. or be able to form a large group to organise an effective resistance.

when they are being slaughtered and forced into hiding

Oh you are saying that God is impotent? The God that gave Samson his strength, the one that guided the stone that David flung out from his sling that killed Goliath? What you are doing is finding any excuse to justify what you believe.<O:p</O:p

 

[jasoncran]

Oh you are saying that God is impotent? The God that gave Samson his strength, the one that guided the stone that David flung out from his sling that killed Goliath? What you are doing is finding any excuse to justify what you believe.<O:p</O:p

a certain verse that comes to mind, one that you say and it goes like this.

love thine enemy and not repay evil for evil. that is your premise against the military

so now you flip-flop.

odd, when God never said that we couldnt be in that military,but now its ok to pray for fire to slay the wicked?

that isnt what the lord said to the john and james when the city refused jesus. they asked the lord to send down fire and the lord responded and said that they dont know the manner of spirit they are from.

the lord says flee to the mountains, now where in that time does it say that he will slay the wicked just yet nor to pray for them to be killed.

in fact that is when the abonamation of desolation occurs and the anti-christs turns on isreal. its not until later that the city of jersusalem is redeemed.
till them the christian will die and suffer as god will let that happen.

let me ask you this

if iran, somehow stops all aid going in to help the christians there and starts killing them and the people suffer.
and also the u.n cant persuade them to change and you pray and pray and the president says that after praying that he felt the need to act with troops and goes to the u.n.and we invade?

what then?

was that president wrong? for helping the persecuted christians.

so you know how God only uses supernatural means to save and never the natural.

 

[Bazz1040]

then i will ask you this.

do you borrow money?
did you mortage your home?
rent
sign any contracts as those my friends are oaths
oh wait in my state of florida in order to have any commercial drivers license one must swear an oath.

doesnt the bible say owe no man anything?

so lets see here
according to adstar's way of thinking if i am taking this correct and if not, i will gladly retract

one cant:
be a cop
vote
sign contracts or borrow money
be a politician

careful when you tell us that oaths arent to be done and fail to see that a contract is an oath.

Generally speaking those things are not a sin in themselves, but God never intended that we get into dept to get what we want or need. God wanted everyone to own their own property and master their own destiny. And when it comes to oaths taking, we should affirm that we will do what we say we will do without the need to put our hand on a Bible or use the name of God. And as for voting; I don't believe that Christians should vote or should I say want to vote (for a candidate for political office) since Jesus told us that we are not of this world, as well as the fact that we are ambassadors for the kingdom of God. And an ambassador does not vote in the Country he or she resides in, because they represent the Country they are from, and our citizenship is in Heaven.

Jesus also said that one cannot serve two masters. The latter one is one of the main reasons why the gospel of the kingdom of God is not being preached to the world by the majority of Christians or the Church as a whole……..they are too busy trying to make the Country where they live in a better place. Jesus said we are the light of the world, and the thing about light is that it does not change anything; it just illuminates everything so that the individual can see where to walk and what to avoid. People should see how we live and by that we show them the right way to live and what to avoid.<O:p</O:p

 

[jasoncran]

so we should take our world view to the market place? or the work place? we should just isolate ourselves from the world?

that doenst nuffily what the gospel says.

i do agree with this. that the gospel never said that were to seperate the secular from the sacred. we are to live it every where.

at home, work and in between.

i am not trying to save the world by social justice, but to honestly sit back and watch men suffer and not do anything isnt what i call the right thing.

not all are called just to pray and be missionaries.

faith without works is dead.

there's no such thing as full time work as the way its put.

the church is the problem i agree, but withdrawing from the public court isnt the answer. we can do both can we not? we can be seen in office and also elsewhere.

 

[Bazz1040]

a certain verse that comes to mind, one that you say and it goes like this.

love thine enemy and not repay evil for evil. that is your premise against the military

so now you flip-flop.

I am not flip-flopping. I am simply showing how ridicules your statement is when you say the reason why Jesus said to flee is because we or they, is that they are not able to fight. If it was because they cannot fight and God wanted us to, He would simply give us all the supernatural ability to fight that no army would be able to defeat us.<O:p</O:p

odd, when God never said that we couldnt be in that military,but now its ok to pray for fire to slay the wicked?

that isnt what the lord said to the john and james when the city refused jesus. they asked the lord to send down fire and the lord responded and said that they dont know the manner of spirit they are from.

the lord says flee to the mountains, now where in that time does it say that he will slay the wicked just yet nor to pray for them to be killed.

in fact that is when the abonamation of desolation occurs and the anti-christs turns on isreal. its not until later that the city of jersusalem is redeemed.
till them the christian will die and suffer as god will let that happen.

There are many things that is a sin that God did not say. As for praying for fire to slay the wicked I don't know where that came from because those words never came from me. We are to do good to all people.....even our enemy.<O:p</O:p

let me ask you this

if iran, somehow stops all aid going in to help the christians there and starts killing them and the people suffer.
and also the u.n cant persuade them to change and you pray and pray and the president says that after praying that he felt the need to act with troops and goes to the u.n.and we invade?

what then?

was that president wrong? for helping the persecuted christians.

so you know how God only uses supernatural means to save and never the natural.

Let me answer that question by giving you a person experience. I have been falsely accused on several occasions and it is when I did not defend myself God quickly used someone else to defend me. He also does, even when I try to do it myslef and fail to win. But the latter always takes a longer time. In one case I was not even their when I was being defended but was told later by the person that defended me. He told me he lost control and that the person that accused me falsely is ashamed of what he said about me. The next day the person that accused me came to me and apologized for what he said. <O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p

Was the person that defended me as he said lost it and put to shame the other person that accused me falsely wrong for yelling at him? Yes, but that is how God works and do things at times. God often use heathen Nations to punish Israel when they sinned against Him, and then punish the heathen Nation for for being unmerciful to Israel. You see by allowing God to fight my battles for me and use whomever He chooses, I don't have to worry about what some might do to me. So I have learnt and am learning that I don't have to lift a finger or say a word for God is my protector and defender......all I need to do is keep my mouth shut....in that way I don't sin by saying something or doing something that I should not have.

I have had quite a few different experiences where God vindicated me, and even in one case made the one that did me wrong said good things about me in my absence to another and that person told me about it. When you stop fighting and trying to defend yourself from your enemy, you will see as Moses said, “the salvation of the Lord”.<O:p</O:p

 

[Strangelove]

Jesus said we are the light of the world, and the thing about light is that it does not change anything; it just illuminates everything so that the individual can see where to walk and what to avoid. People should see how we live and by that we show them the right way to live and what to avoid.<O:p</O:p<O:p</O:p

Absolute GENIUS Bazzmeister!

I'm awarding you the Medal of Truth for that statement.

God Bless you Sir. Your sword is the Word.

 

[Bazz1040]

Absolute GENIUS Bazzmeister!

I'm awardning you the Medal of Truth for that statement.

God Bless you Sir. Your swrord is the Word.

Thank you.