Should Christians Fight In Wars ?

[jasoncran]

I agree. The point was that Jesus is indeed a king over the earth right now, even if He is not bodily present. The people of New Testament times would have been quite familiar with this concept - they never saw Caesar, but they certainly knew that he was their emperor (whether they liked it or not).

who said i disagree with this? i never did, just you confuse me with the talk of reigning on the earth.

 

[Bazz1040]

I have posted nothing that would a reasonable person to conclude that I do not recognize all scripture as the word of God.

Consider this text from Job. Now answer this please: Is Job correct in his implication that when man dies, that's it?

Man's days are determined;
you have decreed the number of his months
and have set limits he cannot exceed.

So look away from him and let him alone,
till he has put in his time like a hired man. At least there is hope for a tree:
If it is cut down, it will sprout again,
and its new shoots will not fail.

Its roots may grow old in the ground
and its stump die in the soil,
yet at the scent of water it will bud
and put forth shoots like a plant. But man dies and is laid low;
he breathes his last and is no more

If we apply your "everything expressed in Scripture is an expression of divine truth" reasoning, we have God telling us (through Job) that man goes into the ground and "is no more".

Do you really believe this, Sissy?

Job is speaking from man's perspective and not God's. To God the dead still lives.<O:p</O:p

 

[Drew]

Job is speaking from man's perspective and not God's. To God the dead still lives.<O:p</O:p

My point exactly. This is why the "there is a time to kill" saying from Ecclesiastes cannot be presumed to represent an eternal divine truth.

 

[Bazz1040]

My point exactly. This is why the "there is a time to kill" saying from Ecclesiastes cannot be presumed to represent an eternal divine truth.

I time to kill and a time to die and so on is really talking about how the world is. It’s not God’s endorsement of killing or dying. But as you know there is coming an age in which there will be no death, killing or even time.<O:p</O:p

 

[Bazz1040]

I agree. The point was that Jesus is indeed a king over the earth right now, even if He is not bodily present. The people of New Testament times would have been quite familiar with this concept - they never saw Caesar, but they certainly knew that he was their emperor (whether they liked it or not).

Not only is Jesus King but so are we. The Bible says that we have been crowned kings. The scripture that says it is worded in the present tense and not future.<O:p</O:p

 

[Adstar]

i will end with this. food for thought. to which is better a corupt sinner in charge of you in these matters

If the authorities of the day allow a corrupt people into positions of power then their nation and therefore their power base will suffer. A wise government will not tolerate corruption, and if it does, well then that nation is on its way to the trash heap and a new elite will be installed.

or a man like joseph in the days of the famine or erastus the chamberlin who have gave from the treasury.

i choose the later, for you see i know men who have been good stewards of these things.

I hope you don't think any recent US administration has had people like that in it. man they have taken your nation to the bring of bankrupsy and turn every man woman and child in your nation into a foreign debt slaves. Salves to work for generations to cover their buddies in the corrupt financial system. The who world has been enslaved to the greedy incompetence of the corrupt financial elites.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

The kingdoms of this world are not yet the Kingdoms of Jesus. That happens at the 7th trumpet during the end times.


Revelation 11
15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!†16 And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying:


“ We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty,
The One who is and who was and who is to come,
Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.
18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,
And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,
And should destroy those who destroy the earth.â€

19 Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Jam]

While I am not against war as a concept, I am certainly against participating in a war today. My reason for this is simply that I do not trust the people at the top. I have no reason to believe that the state will only choose to participate in "just" war, and therefore I cannot justify joining the military. If I were to do so, I would be committing myself to all wars that the state decides to wage, regardless of the approval/disapproval of God.

 

[Drew]

The kingdoms of this world are not yet the Kingdoms of Jesus. That happens at the 7th trumpet during the end times.

Disagree, although we are arguably going on a tangent. I am impressed with the wealth of Biblical evidence that, I suggest, clearly places Jesus as being presently the ruler of this very earth. Here is but one of many arguments that can be marshalled to this effect:

From Acts 4:

On their release, Peter and John went back to their own people and reported all that the chief priests and elders had said to them. 24When they heard this, they raised their voices together in prayer to God. "Sovereign Lord," they said, "you made the heaven and the earth and the sea, and everything in them. 25You spoke by the Holy Spirit through the mouth of your servant, our father David:
"'Why do the nations rage
and the peoples plot in vain?
26The kings of the earth take their stand
and the rulers gather together
against the Lord
and against his Anointed One

Note the context: Peter and John are praying this prayer in response to the actions of the religious leaders. Now the content of the prayer quotes directly from Psalm 2. This is not “co-incidence”. <O:p</O:pNote that the prayer quotes Psalm 2, verses 1 and 2:

Why do the nations conspire
and the peoples plot in vain?
2 The kings of the earth take their stand
and the rulers gather together
against the LORDand against his Anointed One.

And what does Psalm 2 go on to say a few breaths later in respect to this "annointed one"?:

I have installed my King
on Zion, my holy hill

Assuming that Peter and John know their scriptures, they know that Psalm 2 describes rebellion against a sitting King. Do you really believe that the Holy Spirit would inspire the writer of Acts to record this prayer, which exactly echoes the Psalm 2 account of rebellion against a sitting King, and not expect us to draw the obvious conclusion – Jesus is indeed that very King, already installed, just as Psalm 2 declares.
<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p
The scriptures are clear and consistent. Even though (obviously) we do not have Jesus with us in person, his Kingship has been established.<O:p</O:p

 

[jasoncran]

If the authorities of the day allow a corrupt people into positions of power then their nation and therefore their power base will suffer. A wise government will not tolerate corruption, and if it does, well then that nation is on its way to the trash heap and a new elite will be installed.




I hope you don't think any recent US administration has had people like that in it. man they have taken your nation to the bring of bankrupsy and turn every man woman and child in your nation into a foreign debt slaves. Salves to work for generations to cover their buddies in the corrupt financial system. The who world has been enslaved to the greedy incompetence of the corrupt financial elites.

so we do what then. society is full of sinners! churches if you want to dig, have sin and yup corruption.
marriages have sin or are sinful

i guess we dont try to fix the problem but gripe and moan about it.

sin is everwhere.
work, yup sin will tempt you to steal and or lie.


no matter where you run, sin will find and try to tempt you.
thats the point. can you honestly say that we will the lord in our generation? its getting worse but then again was not the apostles saying the same thing.

they thought they were in the last days.

everybody lies. who doesnt that is of the world.

i worked for a church, a good one with some bible believing souls in it and found out real quick, the church isnt perfect and has sin and some corruption to it! its a church on sunday and on monday its business! most churches are this way in america.

yet i still attend them. i dont look for the bad and doom and gloom. if want to find it , you will.

the problems you mention in america , and many of the american christians will agree are the CHURCH's FAULT.
if we gave:
no welfare
no person would depend on govt healthcare
(christian care medishare google it)
far more would want to saved.
thus a more christ like society.

 

[Bazz1040]

Disagree, although we are arguably going on a tangent. I am impressed with the wealth of Biblical evidence that, I suggest, clearly places Jesus as being presently the ruler of this very earth. Here is but one of many arguments that can be marshalled to this effect:

From Acts 4:

On their release, Peter and John went back to their own people and reported all that the chief priests and elders had said to them. 24When they heard this, they raised their voices together in prayer to God. "Sovereign Lord," they said, "you made the heaven and the earth and the sea, and everything in them. 25You spoke by the Holy Spirit through the mouth of your servant, our father David:
"'Why do the nations rage
and the peoples plot in vain?
26The kings of the earth take their stand
and the rulers gather together
against the Lord
and against his Anointed One

Note the context: Peter and John are praying this prayer in response to the actions of the religious leaders. Now the content of the prayer quotes directly from Psalm 2. This is not “co-incidence”. <O:p</O:pNote that the prayer quotes Psalm 2, verses 1 and 2:

Why do the nations conspire
and the peoples plot in vain?
2 The kings of the earth take their stand
and the rulers gather together
against the LORDand against his Anointed One.

And what does Psalm 2 go on to say a few breaths later in respect to this "annointed one"?:

I have installed my King
on Zion, my holy hill

Assuming that Peter and John know their scriptures, they know that Psalm 2 describes rebellion against a sitting King. Do you really believe that the Holy Spirit would inspire the writer of Acts to record this prayer, which exactly echoes the Psalm 2 account of rebellion against a sitting King, and not expect us to draw the obvious conclusion – Jesus is indeed that very King, already installed, just as Psalm 2 declares.
<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p
The scriptures are clear and consistent. Even though (obviously) we do not have Jesus with us in person, his Kingship has been established.<O:p</O:p

No doubt Jesus is sovereign but the scripture clearly states that this world is not yet the kingdom of Jesus. But it will be in the future.<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p

Revelation 11:15-18 (NKJV)
<SUP>15 </SUP>Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!"
<SUP>16 </SUP>And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God,
<SUP>17 </SUP>saying: "We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty, The One who is and who was and who is to come, Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.
<SUP>18 </SUP>The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth." <O:p</O:p

 

[Adstar]

Disagree, although we are arguably going on a tangent. I am impressed with the wealth of Biblical evidence that, I suggest, clearly places Jesus as being presently the ruler of this very earth. Here is but one of many arguments that can be marshalled to this effect:

From Acts 4:

On their release, Peter and John went back to their own people and reported all that the chief priests and elders had said to them. 24When they heard this, they raised their voices together in prayer to God. "Sovereign Lord," they said, "you made the heaven and the earth and the sea, and everything in them. 25You spoke by the Holy Spirit through the mouth of your servant, our father David:
"'Why do the nations rage
and the peoples plot in vain?
26The kings of the earth take their stand
and the rulers gather together
against the Lord
and against his Anointed One

Note the context: Peter and John are praying this prayer in response to the actions of the religious leaders. Now the content of the prayer quotes directly from Psalm 2. This is not “co-incidenceâ€. <o>:p</o>:pNote that the prayer quotes Psalm 2, verses 1 and 2:

Why do the nations conspire
and the peoples plot in vain?
2 The kings of the earth take their stand
and the rulers gather together
against the LORDand against his Anointed One.

And what does Psalm 2 go on to say a few breaths later in respect to this "annointed one"?:

I have installed my King
on Zion, my holy hill

Assuming that Peter and John know their scriptures, they know that Psalm 2 describes rebellion against a sitting King. Do you really believe that the Holy Spirit would inspire the writer of Acts to record this prayer, which exactly echoes the Psalm 2 account of rebellion against a sitting King, and not expect us to draw the obvious conclusion – Jesus is indeed that very King, already installed, just as Psalm 2 declares.
<o>:p</o>:p
<o>:p</o>:p
The scriptures are clear and consistent. Even though (obviously) we do not have Jesus with us in person, his Kingship has been established.<o>:p</o>:p

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:DoNotOptimizeForBrowser/> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]-->[FONT=&quot]If the kingdoms of this earth where the kingdoms of Jesus then they would not be conspiring against Him. The Kings of this world are still conspiring against Jesus. Yes Jesus already has assured Victory and only needs to walk in and take it. That will happen at His second coming. Then the kingdoms of this world will come under His direct control and satan will be banished to the bottomless pit for 1000 years.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days[/FONT]

 

[Adstar]

If the authorities of the day allow a corrupt people into positions of power then their nation and therefore their power base will suffer. A wise government will not tolerate corruption, and if it does, well then that nation is on its way to the trash heap and a new elite will be installed.




I hope you don't think any recent US administration has had people like that in it. man they have taken your nation to the bring of bankrupsy and turn every man woman and child in your nation into a foreign debt slaves. Salves to work for generations to cover their buddies in the corrupt financial system. The who world has been enslaved to the greedy incompetence of the corrupt financial elites.

so we do what then. society is full of sinners! churches if you want to dig, have sin and yup corruption.
marriages have sin or are sinful

i guess we dont try to fix the problem but gripe and moan about it.

sin is everwhere.
work, yup sin will tempt you to steal and or lie.


no matter where you run, sin will find and try to tempt you.
thats the point. can you honestly say that we will the lord in our generation? its getting worse but then again was not the apostles saying the same thing.

My point of offering thoes observations was to try and get people to stand back and see just how evil the leaders of this world are, and to try to get them to stop worshipping their leaders as God's gifts to humanity. They are not loving servants of God they are hand picked right hand men of satan, even if they do not realise it themselves.

i worked for a church, a good one with some bible believing souls in it and found out real quick, the church isnt perfect and has sin and some corruption to it! its a church on sunday and on monday its business! most churches are this way in america.

yet i still attend them. i dont look for the bad and doom and gloom. if want to find it , you will.

It is better to stand alone then with lies. I have no problem with standing next to sinners. i am one. But i will never stand in support of deception.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Strangelove]

It is better to stand alone then with lies. I have no problem with standing next to sinners. i am one. But i will never stand in support of deception.

I wholeheartedly stand behind this statement. What communion hath light with darkness?

God Bless you Adstar.

 

[Justice]

My obligation is to the kingdom of God because that is the government that I represent. I am under no obligation to be at the whim of man's government that is under Satan influence. One cannot be obligated to society and God at the same time because their will come a time when they both will conflict with each other. For example you cannot pledge allegiance to the flag and God, because it would be like trying to serve two masters that have different policies and principles.<O:p</O:p

​

What about God's ruling powers over us? Why has our governing powers become so corrupt? Why do we have abortion? Why is sexual and other sin so rampant? It's because the salt of the earth has turn it's back on what is righteous by doing nothing or being morally lazy/bankrupt. Paul, Peter and so forth risk their lives time and time again spreading the gospel. They did not let the government of those days that were under satan's influence stop them.

We have had it easy, perhaps that's the problem. Know that we will be held accountable.

Romans 13: 1-4
1: Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

2: Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

3: For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

4: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

 

[Bazz1040]

What about God's ruling powers over us? Why has our governing powers become so corrupt? Why do we have abortion? Why is sexual and other sin so rampant? It's because the salt of the earth has turn it's back on what is righteous by doing nothing or being morally lazy/bankrupt. Paul, Peter and so forth risk their lives time and time again spreading the gospel. They did not let the government of those days that were under satan's influence stop them.​

Governments of the world have always been corrupt in one way or another, though that has increased even more so today. It is not our job to make them good......they are not our government but Satan's. Jesus said that His kingdom was not of this world and He also told His disciples that they were not of this world. Anyone that studies the Bible carefully will see that Jesus and prophets told us that the conduction of the world would get worse as we get closer to Jesus return. Jesus commissioned us to preach the gospel of the kingdom just as He did. He never sought to change or improve man's government and neither did the apostles. <O:p</O:p

We have had it easy, perhaps that's the problem. Know that we will be held accountable.

I agree with that.....but we have been spending more time advancing and proclaiming democracy as if that is God's system. We have been proclaiming religion but ignore the message that Jesus preached.
<O:p</O:p

Romans 13: 1-4
1: Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

2: Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

3: For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

4: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Of course you realize that obeying God takes president over the above. And I would dare say the verse above has nothing to do with voting or joining the army. It is not even saying that man's government is good. Remember, Jesus was crusified by the Jews and the Roman government could have stopped it but did not, even though they knew He was innocent. Of course I know that Jesus' crusifiction had to be. My point is it took an unjust government for it to take place under, because no just and righteous government would allow an innocent person to be punished.​

 

[Drew]

No doubt Jesus is sovereign but the scripture clearly states that this world is not yet the kingdom of Jesus. But it will be in the future.<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p

Revelation 11:15-18 (NKJV)
<SUP>15 </SUP>Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!"
<SUP>16 </SUP>And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God,
<SUP>17 </SUP>saying: "We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty, The One who is and who was and who is to come, Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.
<SUP>18 </SUP>The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth." <O:p</O:p

How do you know that this event lies in the future, and has not already happened?

Remember the words of Jesus:

"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me."

How can Jesus not be a presently ruling king if all authority on earth has already been given to Him?

 

[Drew]

[FONT=&quot]If the kingdoms of this earth where the kingdoms of Jesus then they would not be conspiring against Him.

[/FONT]
Why do you say this? You seem to assume that if the kingdoms of this earth are conspiring against Jesus, that He cannot be king yet. Are there those who "conspire" against President Obama? Of course there are! Yet that does not mean that President Obama is no longer president.

Paul is quite clear in 1 Corinthians 15 - Jesus reigns until all enemies are defeated. The relevant point being that just because there is "strife and rebellion" in this present world, this does not mean that Jesus is not a sitting King.

 

[Bazz1040]

How do you know that this event lies in the future, and has not already happened?

Remember the words of Jesus:

"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me."

How can Jesus not be a presently ruling king if all authority on earth has already been given to Him?

If it was the world would be a far far better place than it is. Scriptures throughout the Bible tells us what the world will be like when Jesus and the saints sit as kings on the Earth. The Earth will be at peace; even the animals will be at peace with man and each other. The world today reflects the nature of Satan. The Bible tells says that Satan is the god of this world.<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p

2 Corinthians 4:3-4 (ASV)
<SUP>3 </SUP>And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled in them that perish:
<SUP>4 </SUP>in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not dawn upon them.
<O:p</O:p

Jesus being given all authority and being now King over the Earth are two different things. Jesus at this moment is on His Father's throne.....not His. Jesus’ throne will be on the Earth.

Satan's throne was and is still on the Earth.

 

[Drew]

If it was the world would be a far far better place than it is.

I can understand why you might think this - common sense would suggest that if Jesus is really in charge, then all troubles will be solved. The problem is that this is not what the Scripture teaches. As Paul says, Jesus reigns until all enemies have been defeated. That clearly implies that the world will not be "perfect" until the end of his reign (when He hands authority to the Father, as, again, per 1 Corinthians 15).

The muddled state of our world does not change the Biblical position that Jesus already reigns over all things, including this present world.