Should Christians Fight In Wars ?

[jasoncran]

its says in revalation that the dragon made war with the saints and overcame them.

doesnt sound like the saints IN the TRIBULATION, are going to be saved from death at all but die for the lord. that was the point., the fleing from jerusalem in that context is in the tribulation. we arent in the tribulation.

the anti-christ hasnt set himself up as god nor has the isrealis built the temple

please.

the lord allows the deaths of the saints, unless you think that stephen wasnt martyred or the paul didnt die, or peter.

the tribulation saints will die for thier faith.

are we now in the tribulation?

nice dodging of my points on signing contracts.
funny how that only applies to the military
when its actually means anything that you say a pledge too.

i dont think that the is what the lord meant by that. we shouldnt swear by things holy, that was the point. that is what they did then.

for if its a sin to make an oath.

why did you agree to the tos here? that is an oath.

if you agree to this we will allow or do this
if you agree to this and do that and its a no no, then we will punish you. that to me is a contract. it may not be a legal one but its what we go by here.

close on a house its similiar
rent yup that too.

that is why i brought that up. for you see i was going to let go of my house as its now 1/3 of the value but then the lord dealt with me. you gave your word that you would pay that and that contract never said that the house value would stay up or that you could not pay if it dropped

now then i too have had a same expericence on being defended by the lord

my dad kicked me out of his house for no reason, along with my brother. he was in a car wreck the next day, he lived but he changed his attitude after that.

my mom reconciled us to him and vice versa before that wreck but, that anger and what not was still there.

i mainly wanted to hear what cyberjosh would say on this matter not you. or adstar at first no offense.

 

[Adstar]

then i will ask you this.

do you borrow money?

Well i don't know the law in the USA but i did not have to swear an oath in Australia to take out a loan.

did you mortage your home?

Nope.

rent

I did rent for a few years. But again i did not nead to swear an oath to do it.

sign any contracts as those my friends are oaths

Only if you swear an oath.

oh wait in my state of florida in order to have any commercial drivers license one must swear an oath.

Not in my state. So you swaer an oath to God to get a licence in florida wow.

doesnt the bible say owe no man anything?

Yes. A good teaching too. Imagine if all followers of Jesus where free from debt slavary.

so lets see here
according to adstar's way of thinking if i am taking this correct and if not, i will gladly retract

one cant:
be a cop

Correct. Police carry a gun for a reason, they are called upon to kill people under certain circumstances. So no i do not believe a Christian should be a cop.

vote

Correct. I do not vote and take a portion of the evil of the earths Authorities. When you vote you take a share of responsability for every decision taken by the government.

sign contracts or borrow money

Well i do not see doing that as an oath. It's just an indication of my agreement with the contract.

be a politician

Correct. Lets the servants of satan rule his kingdoms, have nothing to do with their evil game.

careful when you tell us that oaths arent to be done and fail to see that a contract is an oath.

Swearing an oath is not nessecaraly the same as signing a contract. Maybe in the USA every contract has some solemn oath talk in it But thats not global.

Oh you missed out on another conclusion.

Swearing on the bible as a witness in a court case. Christians should never swear on the Bible when the bible tells them do not swear at all.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[jasoncran]

, and btw one DOESNT have to say the oath to enlist that is just a tradition , all is needed is for you to sign the contract and an officer to sign it and you are in.

we dont call it and enlistment oath but contract! tthough it does have the oral oath written it.

i only use oath since most see that.

so its ok for you to be protected but the guy that does it is damned to hell, nice!

i wonder since you call the govt evil then its ok to pay taxes to satan and not have a say?
or as is the case for the entity that i am employed by the govt that is in the power business and water business.

should you buy from any of those?

that oath for cdls not regualar licenses.
(commercial driver's license) not a regular license, and what i mean buy this is that that you can drive tractor trailers , buses, and so on

and that is a promises that you swear the miles you drive and also where you drive, no bible is used.
so its ok for you to rent and not buy, hmm interesting. in my state all leases unless stated are at will meaning that the landlord can evict you with only a three day notice even if you pay.

when you read the contract for the military if i recall i dont think god is mentioned that is said only at the tradition part.

and that oath is null if you never sign the contract.
i reenlisted never saying the oath once.

the co or an officer wasnt there and they had to sign it later. i came in to sign it and then they signed it later.

i dont get your postion to say that it sin. when you usurp the things that have to be provided for by someone.
use oil for your car. the govt must also regulate that and sadly some have fought for that to be controlled.

use a gps, and also any thing from military that benefits you and its ok for you to do that but not the guy in uniform and who originally used it and still does to protect you.

i can see why you dont want to serve, but to make it a command from god that isnt really openly stated is a bit much.

for you see i used to think like you as i was raised a jw. they did that alot. oh its bad:
go to college
vote
have life insurance
be a cop, but not call them in to save you
be a soldier
but if you allready had a degree you could use it to make money! how quaint for that guy in charge of the congregation

 

[jasoncran]

i will add this, that verse that says let your yays be yays and nays be nays

i think that would also include giving your word and you do that in a contract. its stated that if i will do this you will do that.. not much different that an oath. unless you thinkin that being a liar is ok with the lord or trucebreaker.(another type of contract).

in the early days of america a handshake was legally binding if the promise was stated.

oh those were the days they say were men kept their word.

 

[jasoncran]

interesting perspective when you read it this way.

paul took and oath in the book of acts

Should Christians Ever Swear An Oath? by John Waddey ( 82 )

 

[Adstar]

, and btw one DOESNT have to say the oath to enlist that is just a tradition , all is needed is for you to sign the contract and an officer to sign it and you are in.

we dont call it and enlistment oath but contract! tthough it does have the oral oath written it.

i only use oath since most see that.

so its ok for you to be protected but the guy that does it is damned to hell, nice!

Let me make it clear. I have never asked any soilder to protect me. I trust in the protection of God for as long as He wills for me to live. And if He decideds to use a soilder to keep me alive for a day longer then so be it.

i wonder since you call the govt evil then its ok to pay taxes to satan and not have a say?

Jesus said pay taxes so i pay taxes. I should follow all laws of the worldy powers God has allowed to rule over me to the point where following them would see me rebell against God.

or as is the case for the entity that i am employed by the govt that is in the power business and water business.

should you buy from any of those?

Well i pay power bills and in my country the power is generated by the government. There is no restriction stated by Jesus where we are not allowed to pay for government services.

that oath for cdls not regualar licenses.
(commercial driver's license) not a regular license, and what i mean buy this is that that you can drive tractor trailers , buses, and so on

Well do you have to swaer an oath to God to get thoes licences?

and that is a promises that you swear the miles you drive and also where you drive, no bible is used.
so its ok for you to rent and not buy, hmm interesting. in my state all leases unless stated are at will meaning that the landlord can evict you with only a three day notice even if you pay.

I cannot see what this has to do with the topic we are discussing?

when you read the contract for the military if i recall i dont think god is mentioned that is said only at the tradition part.

Well i have seen army swearing in ceremonys in my country and at the end they say "So help me God" It is an oath to God to serve and by loyal to Queen and country. I would be surprised if the US ceremony does not include a similar wording to So help me God.

the co or an officer wasnt there and they had to sign it later. i came in to sign it and then they signed it later.

i dont get your postion to say that it sin. when you usurp the things that have to be provided for by someone.
use oil for your car. the govt must also regulate that and sadly some have fought for that to be controlled.

Well that regulation has nothing to do with swearing oaths or taking part in war. Why do you bring it up?

use a gps, and also any thing from military that benefits you and its ok for you to do that but not the guy in uniform and who originally used it and still does to protect you.

Using GPS does not kill anyone. I do not need to swear an oath to God to use GPS. I don't use gps but thats beside the point.

i can see why you dont want to serve, but to make it a command from god that isnt really openly stated is a bit much.

Well i believe that is it clearly stated by Jesus. But let each man have a clear conscience towards God. If you are clear in your conscience that it is ok to fight and kill in war then thats your call. But i will share what i believe.

for you see i used to think like you as i was raised a jw. they did that alot. oh its bad:
go to college
vote
have life insurance
be a cop, but not call them in to save you
be a soldier
but if you allready had a degree you could use it to make money! how quaint for that guy in charge of the congregation

Well i am not a jw. But even jw's can be flexable with bible interpretation. I will tell you a story my brother told me.

My brother was a small arms instructor at a military academy in my country. Yeah my brother was a member of the defense forces. Anyway one day he was taking a batch of recruits through their first Steyr firing experiance at the range. They where handing out the assult riles to the recruits and one of my brothers subordinates came to him with a problem. One of the recruits was refusing to take the gun, they would not pick it up. So my brother went down the line to investigate what the problem was. When he got there he asked the recruit (a femail recruit) why she was refusing to handle the gun. She replied i am a Jehoavahs witness i am forbidden to use guns. Well my Brothers jaw dropped and with eyes staring at the recruit he bellowed Then why on earth did you join the defense force?? She replied Oh i am taking a job in administration i thought i would only be doing a desk job... her enlistment was canceled the next day.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

i will add this, that verse that says let your yays be yays and nays be nays

i think that would also include giving your word and you do that in a contract. its stated that if i will do this you will do that.. not much different that an oath. unless you thinkin that being a liar is ok with the lord or trucebreaker.(another type of contract).

Giving your word is not the same as swearing an oath to God to keep your word. If i shake hands on something then i feel honour bound to keep to the agreement, to shake hands on something and not be willing to try and do all one can to keep to the agreement would make the agreement a lie.

But if it failed an agreement because of unforseen circumstances then it would only be my name that would be harmed, not my relationship with God.



All Praise The Ancient of Days

 

[Adstar]

interesting perspective when you read it this way.

paul took and oath in the book of acts

Should Christians Ever Swear An Oath? by John Waddey ( 82 )

The call by Jesus for us to do something is directed to us and is for us. God can swear and oath and Jesus can swear an oath at any time. Jesus can call upon an army of angels to smash an enemy or nation at any time. Jesus is not bound by what He calles for His followers to do and not to do.

And the examples of what paul said in scripture, they where not oaths. He neaver said I swear to God something..


All Praise The Ancient of Days

 

[jasoncran]

Let me make it clear. I have never asked any soilder to protect me. I trust in the protection of God for as long as He wills for me to live. And if He decideds to use a soilder to keep me alive for a day longer then so be it.





Jesus said pay taxes so i pay taxes. I should follow all laws of the worldy powers God has allowed to rule over me to the point where following them would see me rebell against God.





Well i pay power bills and in my country the power is generated by the government. There is no restriction stated by Jesus where we are not allowed to pay for government services.





Well do you have to swaer an oath to God to get thoes licences?





I cannot see what this has to do with the topic we are discussing?





Well i have seen army swearing in ceremonys in my country and at the end they say "So help me God" It is an oath to God to serve and by loyal to Queen and country. I would be surprised if the US ceremony does not include a similar wording to So help me God.





Well that regulation has nothing to do with swearing oaths or taking part in war. Why do you bring it up?





Using GPS does not kill anyone. I do not need to swear an oath to God to use GPS. I don't use gps but thats beside the point.





Well i believe that is it clearly stated by Jesus. But let each man have a clear conscience towards God. If you are clear in your conscience that it is ok to fight and kill in war then thats your call. But i will share what i believe.





Well i am not a jw. But even jw's can be flexable with bible interpretation. I will tell you a story my brother told me.

My brother was a small arms instructor at a military academy in my country. Yeah my brother was a member of the defense forces. Anyway one day he was taking a batch of recruits through their first Steyr firing experiance at the range. They where handing out the assult riles to the recruits and one of my brothers subordinates came to him with a problem. One of the recruits was refusing to take the gun, they would not pick it up. So my brother went down the line to investigate what the problem was. When he got there he asked the recruit (a femail recruit) why she was refusing to handle the gun. She replied i am a Jehoavahs witness i am forbidden to use guns. Well my Brothers jaw dropped and with eyes staring at the recruit he bellowed Then why on earth did you join the defense force?? She replied Oh i am taking a job in administration i thought i would only be doing a desk job... her enlistment was canceled the next day.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

you are citizen of that country right? and bieng a citizen are asking for certian things. its implied in the u.s. constiution and i'm sure that your country has the same concept.

you expect your roads to maintained, and also healthcare. and laws enforced. correct

you do call the law when you need to.

you expect the others driving next you not to speed. correct? so the law enforcement must do that

the goverment is their to maintain order and you are to pay that tax for that service.

the gps was used FOR their PURPOSE of locating targets as in to kill them, that is what those were for.

you missed that

so you dont ask for help when the you are sick? dont use medicare there.

i know what the limitations of the jws are but for all intent purposes you cant have a desk job in any military and not expect to fight that naive.

if you are citizen of any country you ask for certian things its implied.

the govt of the u.s doesnt considered the jw a consentious objector.

the point here is this:

by using any govt agency or benefits.ie power
there at times have to be some that enforce laws designed to ensure you get those

ie a power plant. if some one goes to blow one up then you have have someone that will stop them.

so we cant just isolate ourselves from society like we think we can and hide in a hole and expect that someone will take the burden for us or not to and expect that later for us to be ok. not saying that you are burden.

in my country in national disaster if a person tries to break into a power plant they will be shot. or if they try to sabotage it or any thing that affects public safety.

 

[Bazz1040]

its says in revalation that the dragon made war with the saints and overcame them.

When the system makes war against a people it does not mean that those people take up arms and fight……you should this. You should notice that it is the dragon that makes war against the saints.....it goes after the saints. Nowhere does it say the saints take up arms to fight.<O:p</O:p

 

[Adstar]

you are citizen of that country right? and bieng a citizen are asking for certian things. its implied in the u.s. constiution and i'm sure that your country has the same concept.

you expect your roads to maintained, and also healthcare. and laws enforced. correct

you do call the law when you need to.

you expect the others driving next you not to speed. correct? so the law enforcement must do that

the goverment is their to maintain order and you are to pay that tax for that service.

The Government can govern as it deems fit to govern as far as i am concerned. That is out of my hands, i do not vote. If the governement deems it right to provide services to my then so be it. This does not cause me to fight in war or swaer any oaths. I know governement serves a purpose.

the gps was used FOR their PURPOSE of locating targets as in to kill them, that is what those were for.

you missed that

Well no i didn't, i knew it was run by the US military and i heard it was used to help in the guidance of nuclear missiles. not sure if that is true, anyway the point is if i use the system it is for me an aid to locate where i am or where i want to go. I am not using it to kill people. Therefore i have no problem using it for peaceful purposes. most people who use GPs use it for a non leathal purpose.

so you dont ask for help when the you are sick? dont use medicare there.

Yes i do. I use medicare. I would prefer not to for the reason i would like to be able to provide my own health needs, But once again using this does not require me to engage in warfare.

i know what the limitations of the jws are but for all intent purposes you cant have a desk job in any military and not expect to fight that naive.

I was using the example of that jw to show how people can bend the teachings they profess to believe to succeed in this world.

by using any govt agency or benefits.ie power
there at times have to be some that enforce laws designed to ensure you get those

Yeah. But i believe Christians should not be in these positions of enforcement.

ie a power plant. if some one goes to blow one up then you have have someone that will stop them.

That person or force does not need to include Christians.

so we cant just isolate ourselves from society like we think we can and hide in a hole and expect that someone will take the burden for us or not to and expect that later for us to be ok. not saying that you are burden.

Well i do not advocate living in a hole. I think we should interact with the world. But interaction does not mean giving into the world. And yes we can allow others to take the "burden" because there is no shortage of people who want the positions of power and authority.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[jasoncran]

that is in the trib and you claimed that god would protect them. he doesnt in the physical sense he lets them die!

were not in the tribulation. and no where does it say that we cant run for office nor explicity say that we can be a cop.

this whole argument is like the death penalty neither side will budge and both have some scriptures to point that side.

if you are a member of a society then surely you have some obligations to your fellow man.

would you ignore a plea for help? no
would you break the law in the state of florida and not render aid in a car wreck, that is a law here.
would you also not call in a burgalary

i'm done. this time. we wont budge. pointless.

 

[jasoncran]

The Government can govern as it deems fit to govern as far as i am concerned. That is out of my hands, i do not vote. If the governement deems it right to provide services to my then so be it. This does not cause me to fight in war or swaer any oaths. I know governement serves a purpose.





Well no i didn't, i knew it was run by the US military and i heard it was used to help in the guidance of nuclear missiles. not sure if that is true, anyway the point is if i use the system it is for me an aid to locate where i am or where i want to go. I am not using it to kill people. Therefore i have no problem using it for peaceful purposes. most people who use GPs use it for a non leathal purpose.





Yes i do. I use medicare. I would prefer not to for the reason i would like to be able to provide my own health needs, But once again using this does not require me to engage in warfare.





I was using the example of that jw to show how people can bend the teachings they profess to believe to succeed in this world.





Yeah. But i believe Christians should not be in these positions of enforcement.





That person or force does not need to include Christians.





Well i do not advocate living in a hole. I think we should interact with the world. But interaction does not mean giving into the world. And yes we can allow others to take the "burden" because there is no shortage of people who want the positions of power and authority.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

i will end with this. food for thought. to which is better a corupt sinner in charge of you in these matters
or a man like joseph in the days of the famine or erastus the chamberlin who have gave from the treasury.

i choose the later, for you see i know men who have been good stewards of these things. its possible.

i could take that burden issue and use it for much if i wanted to, but that would be arguing for the sake of arguing

 

[Bazz1040]

that is in the trib and you claimed that god would protect them. he doesnt in the physical sense he lets them die!

<O:p</O:p
I hope that you are talking about someone else (This is the reason why I reply with quote to avoid confusion) because I never said such thing. I said that if God wanted us to fight and we did not know how to, He would give us the ability to fight and no one would be able to defeat us. But our fight is not with physical weapons but we use spiritual weapons against evil spirits.


This is how we arm ourselves and whom we are fighting against<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p

Ephesians 6:12-18 (KJV)
<SUP>12 </SUP>For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
<SUP>13 </SUP>Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
<SUP>14 </SUP>Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
<SUP>15 </SUP>And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
<SUP>16 </SUP>Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
<SUP>17 </SUP>And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
<SUP>18 </SUP>Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints; <O:p</O:p

<!--EndFragment-->

were not in the tribulation. and no where does it say that we cant run for office nor explicity say that we can be a cop.

I am yet to find anyone that believe that Christians should or can run for office show me an example in the Bible where Christians should enter political office. After all democracy is not exclusively American or modern…..it existed during the time of the apostles too. There are so many Christians that believe that they should and for some reason God has not made that possible yet. Over ten years ago I put out a challenge to those that believe they should seek political office and things have gotten worse, as I said it would.

So you can try all you want, your efforts are all going to be in vain. The harder you try the worse society is becoming then one day you will realize that what you should be doing is proclaiming the good news of the kingdom of God.<O:p</O:p

this whole argument is like the death penalty neither side will budge and both have some scriptures to point that side.
if you are a member of a society then surely you have some obligations to your fellow man.

My obligation is to the kingdom of God because that is the government that I represent. I am under no obligation to be at the whim of man's government that is under Satan influence. One cannot be obligated to society and God at the same time because their will come a time when they both will conflict with each other. For example you cannot pledge allegiance to the flag and God, because it would be like trying to serve two masters that have different policies and principles.<O:p</O:p
​

 

[Drew]

...., shall i call up post where you call the church to be a part of the theocratic movement

By all means - I am only being true to what the Bible says. Jesus presently reigns over all earthly governments, whether they like it or not or whether they realize it or not.

Many here insist that Jesus is not yet King - well you are free to believe this, but it is rather clearly not what the Bible teaches.

...., and also that we should pay taxes willingly?

My position on the tax matter is, I suggest, the correct one. You vote to be taxed. So it makes no sense to then say that the government is "taking" your money. Of course, the government is doing nothing of the kind.

 

[Drew]

OK, finally getting around to your post #116.




There has already been an instance where the heavens & earth had to be made anew.

In Genesis 1:1-2 we find that God created the heavens & earth, and it became without form and void.
Then the Spirit moved. God spent 6 days reforming it from it’s chaotic and desolate state.

Isaiah 46
(10) Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
​

Likewise, Solomon (or more correctly, the Holy Spirit) declares the same in:


Ecclesiastes 1
(9) The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.


Studying scripture is always simpler if you let scripture interpret scripture, instead of your feelings.
But of course, you first have to recognize all scripture as the word of God.

God is a man of peace and a man of war (Exodus 15:3).
And the Holy Spirit again confirms it in Ecclesiastes 3 --- a time for peace, and a time for war.




Now, let me go back and try to find what Doc was being so impatient about.

This is not an answer to my question. Please answer the clear, straightforward question in post 116.

 

[jasoncran]

By all means - I am only being true to what the Bible says. Jesus presently reigns over all earthly governments, whether they like it or not or whether they realize it or not.

Many here insist that Jesus is not yet King - well you are free to believe this, but it is rather clearly not what the Bible teaches.


My position on the tax matter is, I suggest, the correct one. You vote to be taxed. So it makes no sense to then say that the government is "taking" your money. Of course, the government is doing nothing of the kind.

some taxes here arent voted for. i can list those. the national tax wasnt voted for by the citizens of the u.s. but by the state reprensentives by each state long ere i was born, and that was a federal ammendment.

just like i didnt vote for ss, or medicare and i wont support the candidate then who wanted those, if i was born then.

so in a sense that is taking money from me since i didnt and couldnt support that

but that is another matter. if the govt is run by the the lord then why are you agianst service? after all isnt the lord in charge?

i know that he reigns but if i take it your way and i'm curious why cant the christian serve there after all theres no seperation of church and state in your view.

so if the lord calls you to war.. what then.

btw i never said he didnt rein nor by defense of this service by me did imply that the govt is evil. only the god ordians govts and lets them run as men wish them and has prophecied the end of it all.

unless you think God overides men will all the time.

i know you wont change and i ask only you respond to this.

 

[Bazz1040]

Many here insist that Jesus is not yet King - well you are free to believe this, but it is rather clearly not what the Bible teaches.

He is but He is not sitting on His throne but His Father's. When Jesus returns He will sit on His throne, which will be on the Earth.

 

[Drew]

But of course, you first have to recognize all scripture as the word of God.

I have posted nothing that would a reasonable person to conclude that I do not recognize all scripture as the word of God.

Consider this text from Job. Now answer this please: Is Job correct in his implication that when man dies, that's it?

Man's days are determined;
you have decreed the number of his months
and have set limits he cannot exceed.

So look away from him and let him alone,
till he has put in his time like a hired man. At least there is hope for a tree:
If it is cut down, it will sprout again,
and its new shoots will not fail.

Its roots may grow old in the ground
and its stump die in the soil,
yet at the scent of water it will bud
and put forth shoots like a plant. But man dies and is laid low;
he breathes his last and is no more

If we apply your "everything expressed in Scripture is an expression of divine truth" reasoning, we have God telling us (through Job) that man goes into the ground and "is no more".

Do you really believe this, Sissy?

 

[Drew]

He is but He is not sitting on His throne but His Father's. When Jesus returns He will sit on His throne, which will be on the Earth.

I agree. The point was that Jesus is indeed a king over the earth right now, even if He is not bodily present. The people of New Testament times would have been quite familiar with this concept - they never saw Caesar, but they certainly knew that he was their emperor (whether they liked it or not).