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should christians vote

should christians vote


  • Total voters
    10
Why vote. If God places leaders in charge, then there's very little reason to vote, and no reason to complain about who's in, . . .right?

*sorry if this has been brought up. I don't have time to read all the posts*
 
Yes, it's been brought up but you reaffirm that our FAITH is to be PLACED in God and NOT men.

Blessings,

MEC
 
BTW, . . . is it okay to complain about the Obama Whitehouse??? :D

:salute
 
Imagican said:
Mark, what ARE YOU? Are you a 'Christian' or are you a 'DEMOCRAT'?

You speak as if the two are mutually exclusive. I can't be Democrat as I am not American. I come from a country where we our two main poilitcal parties sit either-side of political centre, unlike in the USA where both parties are on the right side (right not meaning correct) of the politcal spectrum. A legacy of Senator McCarthy.

For your information, I am a swinging voter. My politics and my faith are independent and always will be.

Imagican said:
NO, GOD protects the RIGHT to worship Him. NOTHING can STOP that except YOURSELF.

Try telling that to Christians in China. I know I can worship God where-ever and whenever I want. I do not need a Church or a Temple etc to worship him. But the fact you are a Christian, or that you want to meet as a body of Christians, is illegal in some countries. It is that right that I am talking about.

It seems to me that one reason that Christians on this forum seem to not want to vote is based partly on the premise that:

"My kingdom is not of this world" John 18:36

This was Jesus' defence against the charges laid against him before Pilate that he was somehow subverting the Roman politcal system. I can't see any basis for using this verse as justification not to vote.

Romans 13: 1-2 has also been used to to justify the non-vote position.

Read beyond verses 1 & 2 and you will see that Paul exhorts his readers to be good corporate citizens in the Roman Empire by paying taxes, honour and respect to the temporal authoritues (verse 6). Verse 1 & 2 state that the Christian should obey those set in authority over us, verse 3 suggests that should they overstep their proper function, the Christian should obey God rather than man. Check out Acts 5:29 ( and surrounding verses) for a practical application of these verses.

Nowhere in the Bible does it tell us to vote or not to vote. The idea of voting would have been completely alien to 1st century Christians living in the Roman Empire. So to say that voting is unbiblical is a non-sense. Voting to me would be more supported in the Bible by Romans 13:6, an extension of our duties as citizens of whatever country we live in.
 
Here is something to think about in regards to this issue.

In Acts 21 we see that the apostle Paul was seized in the temple. A sort of riot broke out and Roman soldiers were brought in. As Paul was about to be brought into the barracks he spoke to the commander of the soldiers.

Paul did not say anything to the effect of: “I am a child of God. I place all my faith and trust in Him.â€Â

What Paul said was, “I am a Jew of Tarsus in Cilicia, a citizen of no insignificant city, and I beg of you, allow me to speak to the people.†(Acts 21:40)

And, because Paul was a Roman citizen, and one who knew his rights, the commander of the soldiers granted him his request.

When Paul addressed the mob, again he didn’t say anything along the line of “I am God’s, I belong to His Kingdom that is not of this earth.â€Â

What he said was “I am a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city, educated under Gamaliel, strictly according to the law of our fathers, being zealous for God, just as you all are today.†(Acts 22:3)

In Paul’s dialog with the Roman commander, he stressed his citizenship of a significant Roman city. With the Jews, he stressed his jewishness and the fact that he was educated in Jerusalem under Gamaliel.

Paul addressed the mob and things went along well enough until Paul brought up the fact that God had commanded Him to go to the Gentiles and they went all ballistic again. The Roman commander, perhaps regretting his letting Paul speak to the people then commanded that Paul be scourged. (22:24)

Here again, we do not see Paul meekly submitting to the scourging because he had faith in God and therefore if God allowed it, it must be His will.

No, Paul simply and pointedly asked the centurion who was standing by “Is it lawful for you to scourge a man who is a Roman and uncondemned?†(22:25)

Yes, again Paul exercises his rights as a citizen of Rome.

The story continues with a plot against Paul’s life resulting in the commanding officer sending Paul to Caesarea to the governor, Felix, along with a letter explaining, among other things, that Paul was a citizen of Rome.

Felix, partly because he liked Paul’s conversations and partly because he was holding out for a bribe and partly to do the Jews a favor, kept Paul imprisoned for 2 years, until Porcius Festus replaced him. Festus wanted to start off by doing the Jews a favor and so was inclined to send Paul back to Jerusalem for trial.

Yet again, Paul didn’t simply rely on the fact that he was of the Kingdom of God. What Paul said was:

“I am standing before Caesar’s tribunal, where I ought to be tried. I have done no wrong to the Jews, as you also very well know. If then I am a wrongdoer, and have committed anything worthy of death, I do not refuse to die; but if none of those things is true of which these me accuse me, no one can hand be over to them. I appeal to Caesar.†(Acts 25:10-11)

So, yet again, we see that Paul exercised his full rights as a Roman citizen and appealed directly to Caesar. And, to Caesar he was sent. Agrippa and Festus agreed that he would have been let go, but since Paul appealed to Caesar, they had to send him to Rome.

And, once Paul got to Rome, since no letters had been sent accusing Paul of anything, he was free to preach the gospel to some of the most influential people in the most influential city of it’s time. It is interesting to note however, in speaking with the Romans, Paul stated, “...But when the Jews objected, I was forced to appeal to Caesar, not that I had any accusation against my nation.†(Acts 28:19)

Roman citizens, as least the male ones, did have the right to run for office, attend assemblies and to vote on the matters at hand. While it’s true that we have no record of Paul or any other Christian of Rome voting, neither is there anything to promote the idea that it would have been either wrong or showing a lack of faith if they did so. For those who believe that it’s important for citizens to exercise their rights to vote, Paul’s example of how he exercised his rights as a Roman citizen stands as a model of how we should do so.
 
Mark,

You certainly have a right to your opinion. As do we all.

I have lived in China for almost two years. While they were confined or limited in their ability to worship as they deemed fit, it did NOT stop those that so chose to do so PRIVATELY. And that is what our worship is suppose to BE to start with. It was no different in China when I lived there than it was durring the time of the apostles, (probably WORSE durring the time of the apostles). They too were forced, (by the nature of their respective governments), to offer their worship in small groups and in PRIVATE. But that certainly didn't 'slow THEM down'.

I have heard your response, now hear mine:

We are COMMANDED to separate ourselves FROM 'The World'. Do you deny that these words are given us by Christ and His apostles?

What do you consider 'the world' to BE? Do we separate ourselves from 'air, water, food, shelter, shoes, pants, etc..........? Of course not, (unless somehow these cause you to stumble).

We are to SEPARATE ourselves from the 'secular world' and it's devices. One of the biggest functions of the secular world are politics or the GOVERNING of individuals and their behavior. This God ATTEMPTED with the Hebrews/Jews, only for the lesson attempted was NOT learned.

But you feel that WE, the PEOPLE, are MORE capable of running THE WORLD than God? Let the dead burry the dead. What does this mean to YOU?

How about; 'being content in the station in which we find ourselves in this life and placing our FAITH in God? And then LETTING the World run ITSELF; Thy will be done on EARTH as it IS in heaven?

Now, Mark, what would make YOU think that you are able to make to CORRECT decisions when it comes to voting? What sets YOU appart from ALL others in this matter? Who is MORE conpetent in making the proper decisions of THIS WORLD, those that love and follow Christ or those that have chosen to devote themselves and their WORSHIP to this World?

So you see, I have not made simple statements to exert MY will and have others follow. While what you and others offer may SOUND good, the truth is that when we attempt to play BOTH ends from the middle, we can become NOTHING other than 'caught between TWO gods'. One that plainly has dominion over this world, and the other that has offered a WAY OUT. You CANNOT serve 'two masters'.

Blessings,

MEC
 
You know, Revelation is a wonderous THING. God IS able to lead us into understanding that is NOT contained entirely IN The Word.

Here's a question for those that BELEIVE it's a 'God given RIGHT to vote':

How do you SUPPOSE Hitler ROSE to power? What AVENUE did he USE to procure LEADERSHIP over his PEOPLE? How about Richard Nixon? Or Bush for that matter?

Answer this and THEN tell me how WE are 'gifted' in having the ABILITY to vote.

From the perspective OF; 'voting because it is the Christian THING to DO', tell me HOW responsible those that VOTE shold be HELD when they VOTE for the WRONG thing or PERSON.

How about the 'death penalty'. if sent to the people to VOTE for or against it, WHO is RESPONSIBLE for ONE INNOCENT life TAKEN through our system of government IF it is the WILL of the people that the death penalty EXISTS?

(What happened to the JEWS when they decided that it wasn't ENOUGH for God to BE their KING and wanted one of their FLESH? How many BAD one's did they receive compared to GOOD one's and WHAT were the CONSEQUENCES of the BAD ones?

In the desert, what was the WILL of the PEOPLE towards MOSES? What happened to THOUSANDS of them as a consequence?

Come on folks, this isn't 'rocket science').

But then, I guess, as Pontius ATTEMPTED to do with his PUBLIC display, they too could 'wash their hands' JUST as easily, RIGHT?

Blessings,

MEC
 
Handy

Thank you for posting such an eloquent and well thought post. :clap

My thoughts when I was posting earlier went towards Paul and he exercising his rights as Roman citizen, but time and space prevented me from doing so.

If Paul can embrace his Roman citzenship, why can't we embrace ours and vote?

As I said before voting in compulsory in Australia, (well, turning up the polling station is) so I choose to vote anyway. I could choose to vote informally but I don't.

I cannot see how it is unbiblical to vote.
 
I agree Mark and what Dora brought up was on my mind this weekend. I forgot to mention it though. Thanks Dora. :yes

No, Paul simply and pointedly asked the centurion who was standing by “Is it lawful for you to scourge a man who is a Roman and uncondemned?†(22:25)

Yes, again Paul exercises his rights as a citizen of Rome.
 
Vic, you bring up a good point as i never seen acts(that part that way, btw roman citizenship at that time was by birth or given by a high authority in the government(ie the moive judah ben hur).
 
jasoncran said:
Vic, you bring up a good point as i never seen acts(that part that way, btw roman citizenship at that time was by birth or given by a high authority in the government(ie the moive judah ben hur).
Thanks... not my point though, Handy posted it. Not her point either, Luke wrote it. Not entirely his doing either, God inspired it. :amen
 
It seems odd to me that those who don't vote also believe in working for the government, I dont see the consisitency, if you will work for the devil, but you wont vote the devil out.(figurativley). I'm curious, i see why those who believe that but.... tell me i'm curious
 
jasoncran said:
It seems odd to me that those who don't vote also believe in working for the government, I dont see the consisitency, if you will work for the devil, but you wont vote the devil out.(figurativley). I'm curious, i see why those who believe that but.... tell me i'm curious

I agree Jason.

... and also using the services that the Governemnt provides as well. Im sure some non-voters would be happy to use the services of the local police officer and expect all to subject to the Policeman's authority if some wrong was being done against them!!

Either be Amish or be a citizen. :couch
 
jasoncran said:
It seems odd to me that those who don't vote also believe in working for the government, I dont see the consisitency, if you will work for the devil, but you wont vote the devil out.(figurativley). I'm curious, i see why those who believe that but.... tell me i'm curious

Well Jason, the ONLY way that I work 'for the government' is that i am required to pay taxes. Taxes for my home, taxes for my car, taxes for my business, taxes on my income, etc...............

Who you are referning to that 'works for the government' but doesn't vote is something that I know nothing of.

I ask you. How do you reacon Hitler came into power?

Blessings,

MEC
 
It's kind of funny how things work. I asked a couple of completely valid questions and for the sake of arguement, they were ignored.

So, I'll ask again:

For those that believe that they should vote, what do you base your vote on? What possible reason does anyone have to believe that they are able to alter the world in a better way by voting?

And, since you believe that you should vote, what responsibility should you be liable for if you vote for something that is contrary to God's will? Four hundred years of slavery? Death? A loss of freedom? Prison?

I'm really curious as to how one is able to justify their will over that of God? Barely able to digest milk, but we are capable of knowing what is best for others when we aren't even able to save ourselves. Hmmmmmmm....................

Blessings,

MEC
 
Imagican said:
It's kind of funny how things work. I asked a couple of completely valid questions and for the sake of arguement, they were ignored.

Possibly because you were shouting, many switch off when you do. Funny how things work.

Imagican said:
So, I'll ask again:

For those that believe that they should vote, what do you base your vote on? What possible reason does anyone have to believe that they are able to alter the world in a better way by voting?

When enough people vote they effect change. In all of this you have ignored one important fact. God has given us freewill. The ability to make choices within His Will. It is not to say that by voting we can cure all the world's ills. While non-Christians may believe in the ultimate goodness of Man, we of course believe otherwise.

Imagican said:
And, since you believe that you should vote, what responsibility should you be liable for if you vote for something that is contrary to God's will? Four hundred years of slavery? Death? A loss of freedom? Prison?

So let me get this straight? By casting a vote for a side of politics that loses an election we should accept some form of personal liability because we have voted against the Will of God?? By your logic, that means to vote would be a sin, a rebellion against God. But by suggesting some form of punishment specifically aimed at voting you promote voting above all other sins. To punish a sin against God in a worldly way (death, loss of freedom, prison) where no such punishment/sin relationship already exists. Sorry you can't have your cake and eat it too.

Imagican said:
I'm really curious as to how one is able to justify their will over that of God?

I, and I imagine those of us who decide to vote do not for one minute presume to over-ride the Will of God, but to exercise the free-will He has given us and to engage with our society as Paul may have done by exercising aspects of our Citzenship. (see previous posts on this aspect)

You have mentioned verses that back up your viewpoint of not voting. I can't seem to find any that could be extended to such a decision. Care to share?

God Bless
 
Cornelius said:
Free said:
As has been said, to not vote is a choice, and not one God approves of.
Oh dear, this is not scriptural.
No one ever claimed it was scriptural but let's look at it:

We are created by God in and for a specific time and place. We are also created to do good works and given the abilities and talents to accomplish these works. One of the most precious gifts God has given man is his freedom to choose.

Putting that all together:

Most of us have been born into countries in which we are free to worship and free to choose our leaders. We are to use out talents and abilities for the glory of God and that includes those gifted for roles in government, law, and various leadership positions. So if God has chosen this place and time for us to exist, with the freedom to vote in our leaders, gifted certain people for roles in government, etc., how is it at all honoring to God if we don't vote?
 
Mark,

I could sit here an waste my time offering you tons of scripture that tells us to 'separate' ourselves FROM the world. But obviously what you perceive this to mean and what I offer are TWO separate understandings.

Paul did NOT ask to be taken to Rome to VOTE. He simply asked that he be JUDGED according to his ROMAN citizenship. Knowing that the Jews and Romans were TWO distinct peoples, and that the Jewish religion was the predominant factor in their LEGAL SYSTEM, he KNEW that the Romans would find NO FAULT in his words or teachings.

That is NOT 'taking PART' in the world. That was simply 'self-preservation'.

This 'freedom of choice' that you refer to sounds more like the EXACT same thing that Satan excersised that had HIM thrown out of heaven.

We were given 'freedom of choice' to exercise in LOVE and understanding. It was NEVER meant to be used as a tool used to disregard the WIll OF GOD.

So, if we, lets say, vote IN a tyranical leader who begins to persecute our brothers and sisters, in YOUR opinion, we should NOT be liable at ALL? Oooops, OH WELL. So what?

When you make a decision to sin against your neighbor or God, do you THINK that it will go UNPUNISHED? That through the blood of Christ you can simply say, "I'm forgiven so it doesn't matter''?

If that's the 'form' of Christianity you profess, then no wonder you are unable to come to any understanding of what I offer.

So, it is not ME who chooses to 'have his cake and eat it TOO'. I have NO such illusions in my understanding. We ARE responsible for our actions whether we LIKE it or not.

And you still haven't explained how YOU think that you are able to know what is what one SHOULD vote for and that one should vote against. Where do you profess to have gained such knowledge? And IF you have no SOURCE of such knowledge, then your vote is basically a random choice that may have NO actual basis in what is best for ANYONE, other than appeasement of YOURSELF and YOUR will.

So basically, if you choose to participate in the rudiments of THIS WORLD, then how do you propose to be separate from IT'S judgement?

Blessings,

MEC
 
Imagican said:
jasoncran said:
It seems odd to me that those who don't vote also believe in working for the government, I dont see the consisitency, if you will work for the devil, but you wont vote the devil out.(figurativley). I'm curious, i see why those who believe that but.... tell me i'm curious

Well Jason, the ONLY way that I work 'for the government' is that i am required to pay taxes. Taxes for my home, taxes for my car, taxes for my business, taxes on my income, etc...............

Who you are referning to that 'works for the government' but doesn't vote is something that I know nothing of.

I ask you. How do you reacon Hitler came into power?

Blessings,

MEC
all law enforcement officers, government employees of a local city, town, village, the members of the military, fbi etc, I know you aren't stupid are those jobs off limit in your opinion, yes or no.

S
 
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