should christians vote

[jasoncran]

It seems odd to me that those who don't vote also believe in working for the government, I dont see the consisitency, if you will work for the devil, but you wont vote the devil out.(figurativley). I'm curious, i see why those who believe that but.... tell me i'm curious

Well Jason, the ONLY way that I work 'for the government' is that i am required to pay taxes. Taxes for my home, taxes for my car, taxes for my business, taxes on my income, etc...............

Who you are referning to that 'works for the government' but doesn't vote is something that I know nothing of.

I ask you. How do you reacon Hitler came into power?

Blessings,

MEC

all law enforcement officers, government employees of a local city, town, village, the members of the military, fbi etc, I know you aren't stupid are those jobs off limit in your opinion, yes or no.

So voting is equalivent to supporting a meglomainiac? Hitler manipulated the german people and killed off his opposition, read history, those vote were coerced, kinda like Iran or Sadaam hussein, Vote for me or die, not a choice.

 

[Imagican]

Straight is the gate and narrow the way that leadeth unto life and FEW there be that find it.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Guest]

Jesus never voted.

 

[Imagican]

And he also COMMANDED us to separate ourselves FROM this world.

I'm still waiting for a realistic explanation of HOW we ARE to vote. What issues we are to 'take sides with' and WHO our 'Christian brothers and sisters' THINK we should vote FOR so far as OUR representatives HERE on this PLANET?

Until a REALISTIC answer to these questions can be offered, then I propose that those that ENCOURAGE their brothers and sisters to vote are LEADING them in the WRONG direction. Offering FALSE prophecy for the 'sake of SELF'. For IF what is offered in encouragement of VOTING is OK so far as God is concerned, then answers to these questions should be OBVIOUS. I can offer PLENTY of evidence that there is NOT ONE that is RIGHTEOUS, no, NOT ONE, and therefore the ONLY way that they would participate in the rudiments of this world, (voting, politics, military, government, etc), is that they LUST for the rudiments of this world.

There are PLENTY of things that we, as followers of God and His Son, are ABLE to DO that have NO such affiliation WITH 'the world'. I am certainly able to offer an HONEST days WORK for an HONEST days wage WITHOUT becoming a PART of this world.

For the question concerning police officers, politicians, etc...........If you CHOOSE to be a MEMBER of THIS WORLD, then you SERVE this world.

Do you remember the military man that came to Jesus and asked that Jesus heal his servant. While Christ openly praised the man's FAITH, the man himself PLAINLY realized that HE was NOT worthy for Christ to even visit HIS HOME.

David was LOVED by God but judged UNWORTHY to build His temple. WHY?

Moses was denied entrance to the promised land for ONE act of disobedience.

When we CHOOSE to serve the world, we NEED beware that it is little different than the advice offered to those that would be RICH. Temptations will increase and the chances of OVERCOMING are practically NON EXISTANT.

Look at Solomon. A man that God proclaimed to be SO WISE that He intrusted Him with the GREATEST WEALTH on the planet as well. What HAPPENED to Solomon?

When one CHOOSES to serve, they need BEWARE of WHAT they are ACTUALLY serving.

I once offered my understanding concerning music on this forums. One of the members finally stated that; "He didn't care if God Himself told him that playing his 'electric guitar' was WRONG, he would STILL play it. Imagine that.

There is NO WAY to justify that which cannot be justified so far as TRUTH is concerned. Either we CHOOSE to follow in truth, or we allow ourselves to be DUPED into a 'false belief' of what the TRUTH IS.

And THAT, my Australian brother, is WHY we were 'given' FREEDOM of choice. So that we are able to be FAIRLY JUDGED for our choices. Not to simply excercise OUR WILL, but that when we are judged, it is NOT based on something we were FORCED to DO, but what we CHOSE to follow.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Guest]

Until a REALISTIC answer to these questions can be offered, then I propose that those that ENCOURAGE their brothers and sisters to vote are LEADING them in the WRONG direction.

I see your proposal and raise you one. I propose that you are wrong until you can prove that you are right to everyone's satisfaction.

Shifting the burden proof. It's fun for the whole family!

 

[jasoncran]

And he also COMMANDED us to separate ourselves FROM this world.

I'm still waiting for a realistic explanation of HOW we ARE to vote. What issues we are to 'take sides with' and WHO our 'Christian brothers and sisters' THINK we should vote FOR so far as OUR representatives HERE on this PLANET?

Until a REALISTIC answer to these questions can be offered, then I propose that those that ENCOURAGE their brothers and sisters to vote are LEADING them in the WRONG direction. Offering FALSE prophecy for the 'sake of SELF'. For IF what is offered in encouragement of VOTING is OK so far as God is concerned, then answers to these questions should be OBVIOUS. I can offer PLENTY of evidence that there is NOT ONE that is RIGHTEOUS, no, NOT ONE, and therefore the ONLY way that they would participate in the rudiments of this world, (voting, politics, military, government, etc), is that they LUST for the rudiments of this world.

There are PLENTY of things that we, as followers of God and His Son, are ABLE to DO that have NO such affiliation WITH 'the world'. I am certainly able to offer an HONEST days WORK for an HONEST days wage WITHOUT becoming a PART of this world.

For the question concerning police officers, politicians, etc...........If you CHOOSE to be a MEMBER of THIS WORLD, then you SERVE this world.

Do you remember the military man that came to Jesus and asked that Jesus heal his servant. While Christ openly praised the man's FAITH, the man himself PLAINLY realized that HE was NOT worthy for Christ to even visit HIS HOME.

David was LOVED by God but judged UNWORTHY to build His temple. WHY?

Moses was denied entrance to the promised land for ONE act of disobedience.

When we CHOOSE to serve the world, we NEED beware that it is little different than the advice offered to those that would be RICH. Temptations will increase and the chances of OVERCOMING are practically NON EXISTANT.

Look at Solomon. A man that God proclaimed to be SO WISE that He intrusted Him with the GREATEST WEALTH on the planet as well. What HAPPENED to Solomon?

When one CHOOSES to serve, they need BEWARE of WHAT they are ACTUALLY serving.

I once offered my understanding concerning music on this forums. One of the members finally stated that; "He didn't care if God Himself told him that playing his 'electric guitar' was WRONG, he would STILL play it. Imagine that.

There is NO WAY to justify that which cannot be justified so far as TRUTH is concerned. Either we CHOOSE to follow in truth, or we allow ourselves to be DUPED into a 'false belief' of what the TRUTH IS.

And THAT, my Australian brother, is WHY we were 'given' FREEDOM of choice. So that we are able to be FAIRLY JUDGED for our choices. Not to simply excercise OUR WILL, but that when we are judged, it is NOT based on something we were FORCED to DO, but what we CHOSE to follow.

Blessings,

MEC

So, if youre calling the cops to remove a would be criminal from hurting you or family that's evil? because u believe that job is off the world? Aren't u partaking the evil of the government if you use it for benefit.How do u reconcile the scripture in Romans 13 about the sword of the government.

Jesus commanded that centurion for admitting his humbleness, until christ comes and we are transformed into his likeness were all unworthy, ie we cant stand in front Christ until he gives us grace. See Revalations, what did John do when he seen Jesus, dropped to his knees.

You need not reply don't take this personally I was raised in the Jehovah's witness faithand much of what u say is that way and the only difference if you swapped Jesus dying on the stake not the cross. I was delivered from that thought/ ideology

 

[Rick W]

I think jasoncran has a point.
If we rely or in any way use the services of the world such as police to "serve and protect" us aren't we being hypocritical? Do we expect the police to apprehend a guy that bombs a church so he won't do it again to another church?
Come to think of it we use many such services of the world. Do we all work for a Christian employer? Or do we sell our time to whoever is willing to buy it at the highest price regardless of the beliefs of those who pay us for our time?

Voting doesn't have to mean we are "of" the world. Voting is our voice while "in" the world to at least have a say of how others who are not "of" the world will be treated and what laws we and they will be under.

I see freedom as a God-given gift through those that died that we can speak the Gospel to those who don't believe. I seriously doubt God wants all of us to spread His Word in fear and hiding. Yes, there are those that do whether of their own accord or not while living in an oppressed society. And I don't see oppression as being biblical anyway.

Right now, at this moment, I can go downtown and pass out flyers and speak with those on the street about the love of Christ without fear of being persecuted by a branch of the government. Why? Because God gave us those willing to pay the price, He gave the freedom that we may speak freely of Him and He gave us a voice through the freedom of voting to assure it remains that way.

 

[Nick]

I think jasoncran has a point.
If we rely or in any way use the services of the world such as police to "serve and protect" us aren't we being hypocritical? Do we expect the police to apprehend a guy that bombs a church so he won't do it again to another church?
Come to think of it we use many such services of the world. Do we all work for a Christian employer? Or do we sell our time to whoever is willing to buy it at the highest price regardless of the beliefs of those who pay us for our time?

Voting doesn't have to mean we are "of" the world. Voting is our voice while "in" the world to at least have a say of how others who are not "of" the world will be treated and what laws we and they will be under.

I see freedom as a God-given gift through those that died that we can speak the Gospel to those who don't believe. I seriously doubt God wants all of us to spread His Word in fear and hiding. Yes, there are those that do whether of their own accord or not while living in an oppressed society. And I don't see oppression as being biblical anyway.

Right now, at this moment, I can go downtown and pass out flyers and speak with those on the street about the love of Christ without fear of being persecuted by a branch of the government. Why? Because God gave us those willing to pay the price, He gave the freedom that we may speak freely of Him and He gave us a voice through the freedom of voting to assure it remains that way.

Awesome post, Rick. My thoughts exactly.

---

Here's another reason to vote - us, as citizens in a democratic country, where free speech is encouraged, can vote. There are lots of others in the world that cannot vote and do not have a voice and are being persecuted for their faith. To all those against voting - doesn't this make you feel guilty and want to change that, so that everyone has a voice and can enjoy the freedoms you enjoy? And imagine if you were in the position of say the citizens of Iran, or Zimbabwee or Somalia or lotso f African and Middle Eastern nations that don't have this freedom and are stopped from worshipping Christ freely - how would you feel if people in more privelliged countries just didn't give you a thought, or thought that they shouldn't vote, based on misinterpretation of scripture?

 

[Nick]

Jesus never voted.

You're right, Jesus never voted. But that's becasue he never had the chance - the Roman Empire was not a democracy and the people didn't vote.
Jesus never went on the internet, so does that mean that us going on this forum is a sin?

 

[Cornelius]

Why vote. If God places leaders in charge, then there's very little reason to vote, and no reason to complain about who's in, . . .right?

*sorry if this has been brought up. I don't have time to read all the posts*

That is correct. Its also logical when you believe in the sovereignty of God. We should ask: Will God fail in his purpose to place somebody into authority if all Christians do not vote? Does God need us in what He is doing in running this world ? IS Obama God's choice for the USA as a leader? (The Bible says he is, even though most of you did not vote for him )

God placed Obama into the presidency regardless of most Christians voting for the "other guy" . That in itself should tell you something. The Bible says that there is NO authority (not even Obama) that is not of God.

God decides who rules.Rom 13:1..... for there is no power but of God; and the powers that be are ordained of God.



With you or without you, Obama would still be where he is today, because he in fact has a job to do for God, even if he does not know it. Pharaoh was placed in Egypt in the time of Moses also by God, so God could demonstrate His power through him.

C

 

[Cornelius]

God chooses who goes into power.

So if you have voted for the other guy, it means you voted against God's choice.

C

 

[Mark62]

Mark,

I could sit here an waste my time offering you tons of scripture that tells us to 'separate' ourselves FROM the world. But obviously what you perceive this to mean and what I offer are TWO separate understandings.

No. I just asked for what I thought was a simple request. You take the moral high-ground as if you are sole arbiter on interpretation of the Bible. When I ask for which verses you are using to justify your opinion that voting is somehow unbiblical, you decline to provide.

I am not asking for you to quote the verses, just a brief list of some of them. I'm sure for a person with your depth of Bible knowledge, such a request should be but a trifle. That will give me an opportunity to read them and see if, in my humble opinion, you are taking them out of context.

I can only assume that if they are not provided, no such verses actually exist.

Oh, and if you are wondering why no-one else seems to be responding to your latest posts. It may be because you have slipped back into your disrespctful habit of shouting at everyone again. :naughty

Happy Bible-flicking

 

[Mark62]

God chooses who goes into power.

So if you have voted for the other guy, it means you voted against God's choice.

C

Maybe not.....

A fair bit of comment from the "Not-to-Vote" group on the Will of God. The idea that God has installed every leader around the world.

Let's pause and have a think about the Will of God.

Fairly recently, in Victoria we had the worst bushfires in Australia's history and whole townships were razed to the ground & over 200 people were burned to death. Some unhelpful Christians publicly stated that this was a sign of God's displeasure & wrath and that those who dies somehow deserved it.

If we are to believe that, then that means that God caused the bushfires along with every natural disaster in history. If we are made in the image of God, then surely, like us, God has active and passive aspects to his Will, ie that there are some things that God wants to happen (active) and some things he allows to happen (passive). Just like he allowed the Victorian bushfires to happen.

Given that, then the next question obviously is:

Are some Governments installed as a result of God's active Will while others as a result of His passive Will?

If so, then voting does make a difference. Voting means that you may not actually be opposing God's Will but using what God has given us: freewill, like so:

1. When we vote, we exercise our freewill.
2. If God's Will in this case is passive, then we as Christians have the power to affect change and exercise our democratic freedoms and rights.
3. However, if God's Will in this case is active, then God has over-ruled our freewill for His purposes rather than us opposing His Will.

Is that at all helpful?

Did I just suggest that God might actually vote informally?? :gah

 

[Vic C.]

Mark,

I appreciate how you put to use the whole council of God's word. When dealing with God's sovereignty, not too many people consider God's permissive Will.

Thank you. :yes

Fairly recently, in Victoria we had the worst bushfires in Australia's history and whole townships were razed to the ground & over 200 people were burned to death. Some unhelpful Christians publicly stated that this was a sign of God's displeasure & wrath and that those who dies somehow deserved it

We get that in the US also. Some were saying the same thing after the 9-11 and hurricane Katrina catastrophes. They just don't take into consideration believers were victims too. If it was God's wrath, then they make God a liar.

1 Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Back to the voting booths... totopic

 

[Aero_Hudson]

God chooses who goes into power.

So if you have voted for the other guy, it means you voted against God's choice.

C

I disagree with this and agree with Mark's take for the most part. At the end of the day, none of us knows beyond the shadow of a doubt what God's will is when it comes to governments, elections and other global issues. We have to do the best we can to decide who we will vote for as citizens of the world and of God.

I think every citizen of the world that has legitimate and free elections in their nation has a responsibility to vote. Voting is your voice and it should be heard.

 

[Gabe]

I wonder how many people who are against voting would feel the same way if they were faced with the possibility of someone like Ahmadinejad being elected.

...So if you have voted for the other guy, it means you voted against God's choice.

Ridiculous.

 

[Imagican]

God chooses who goes into power.

So if you have voted for the other guy, it means you voted against God's choice.

C

I disagree with this and agree with Mark's take for the most part. At the end of the day, none of us knows beyond the shadow of a doubt what God's will is when it comes to governments, elections and other global issues. We have to do the best we can to decide who we will vote for as citizens of the world and of God.

I think every citizen of the world that has legitimate and free elections in their nation has a responsibility to vote. Voting is your voice and it should be heard.

Then YOU TOO have offered a LACK of faith in God above. You openly ADMIT that you do NOT know what is BEST yet would encourage those LIKE YOURSELF to vote to change things. Hmmmmm.......

Let me see if I have this right, "I really don't KNOW if what I am voting for is what IS God's will, but I'm going to DO IT ANYWAY because that's what I WANT TO DO.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Mark62]

I wonder how many people who are against voting would feel the same way if they were faced with the possibility of someone like Ahmadinejad being elected.

Ridiculous.

Gabe

Well put. This has been on my mind as well.

So to those people out there who are very strong on the No-to-Vote, can we ponder this:

In this world of political-correctness gone mad, what would happen if a candidate stood up and said that all religion would be banned. That people of all faiths would be prevented from worshipping and that this candidate & his party stood a very good chance of winning the election.

Would you vote?

 

[Imagican]

Mark,

I'm in the process of 'wasting my time'. I am compiling a list of scripture that PLAINLY offers our PLACE in the world.

I don't BELIEVE that it will alter YOUR or any others UNDERSTANDING because it is NOT 'my understanding' but that offered from ABOVE.

But, my purpose is TO TEACH so I will give you what you SAY that you desire and SEE if it has any bearing on YOUR understanding.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Mark62]

Then YOU TOO have offered a LACK of faith in God above. You openly ADMIT that you do NOT know what is BEST yet would encourage those LIKE YOURSELF to vote to change things. Hmmmmm.......

So by extension then, as Christians we should cut ourselves off completely from the world, take absoulutely no interest in anything that occurs in the world at all. Take no action on matters that are important to us individually, to our community and to he country in which we live. In short, that we do not care for those around us?

Let me see if I have this right, "I really don't KNOW if what I am voting for is what IS God's will, but I'm going to DO IT ANYWAY because that's what I WANT TO DO.

...and you of course know that every decision you make in your life is in line with God's Will?

Oh, still waiting for those verses.