Shouldn’t we embrace Arminianism?

[jerry63935]

but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

see this does not mean we have to speak in tongues to pray. i have no issue with others speaking in tongues . i have been in church when the preacher in the middle of the message.start speaking in tongues ..i had no understanding . i dont fully understand the subject so i leave it alone..

 

[jasonc]

see this does not mean we have to speak in tongues to pray. i have no issue with others speaking in tongues . i have been in church when the preacher in the middle of the message.start speaking in tongues ..i had no understanding . i dont fully understand the subject so i leave it alone..

That's a thread of its own

 

[OzSpen]

see this does not mean we have to speak in tongues to pray. i have no issue with others speaking in tongues . i have been in church when the preacher in the middle of the message.start speaking in tongues ..i had no understanding . i dont fully understand the subject so i leave it alone..

jerry,

No preacher should do that because it violates this teaching: 'If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and the speaker is a foreigner to me' (1 Cor 14:11 NIV).

Oz

 

[Avigdor]

Isn’t anything opposed to this a false doctrine. What I’m seeing is that people against Arminianism are saying that some are destined to hell. Hahahaha! What a joke right? Can you imagine that we believed in what Jesus did for us and then we get casted into hell because God hated us before we were born lol.
Some joker on YouTube is trying to say that I misinterpret John 3:16 and that I’m of the tares. I told them I can laugh at them blindfolded and that I’m so upity and confident that I am saved.

If you believe what Jesus did for us, and who He is, in agreement with what the Bible says about Him, then you are saved. You won't go to hell. And I don't know of any Christian theology that teaches differently. Could you maybe give me specifics? The way I see it, we are all destined to hell until we believe in the Jesus of the Bible.

 

[Avigdor]

Not sure how to make correlation between the story of the man born blind and Armenianism and Calvinism.

The person is not from this site, but from YouTube and is basically condemning me. I know that this site is built on the basis of the true gospel and doesn’t preach that God created some for the purpose of His hate.

This person believes that before some people were born that God already decided that they will perish because they were created for destruction and that they have no choice and can’t change that by receiving the free gift of salvation.

I’m still not clear what Armenianism is though. I’ve done searches on it and I can’t get passed the first three paragraphs lol because it seems to be a bunch of repetitiveness that never gets to the point.

So I’m wondering what is it exactly?

There is much more to both Armeniaism and Calvinisim than the choice/predestination disagreement but both are always reduced to this (as you have discovered). In any case no one can get a good grasp on or correct understanding of either position, without actually an in depth personal study. In particular with the Calvinist position is often misstated, even by some Calvinists, and by non Calvinist, with deep bias so as to sound rediculous. I wouldn't give anymore thought to the you tube guy. Just believe what you believe, pray it lines up with the truth of the Bible, and carry on.

 

[Avigdor]

Then you are a reformed or a one pointer ,eternal security but allow free will, yet well without getting the problems of that ..

I,like the reformed here as they tend to the most solid ,the are a lot of pop up churches here and when its over with covid some might not be .

Getting close to forbidden territory here. I am making a clarification, not an argument. Reformed are not the only ones that believe in eternal security. Many Christian communities do. I immediately believed in eternal security when I was saved, with no instruction at all, just logic. If Jesus died, shed His blood for me, and this was applied when I believed, it couldn't be undone, or undone and redone countless times. It was His blood. That is never the argument used to support this belief, just the way I looked at it. Not here arguing for or against, just saying being for does not mean you are Reformed.

 

[jerry63935]

eternal security. Many Christian communities do. I immediately believed in eternal security when I was saved, with no instruction at all, just logic. If Jesus died, shed His blood for me, and this was applied when I believed, it couldn't be undone, or undone and redone countless times. It was His blood. That is never the argument used to support this belief, just the way I looked at it. Not here arguing for or against, just saying being for does not mean you are Reformed.

ETERNAL SECURITY IS ALL IN HOW IT IS LIVED sy caps if one is using eternal security as reason to live like hell. then its not security in the least lil bit. we can in fact have this security .but not as a life style to live as one chooses

 

[Avigdor]

Michelina....
The person you're listening to on YouTube is of the reformed faith.
How do you get to talk to him anyway??

The reformed believe that God predestined everything that was to happen for all time.
They are also called Calvinists after John Calvin who popularized this idea.
The man Arminius, with whom I'm not familiar, had a lot of the same ideas as John Calvin.
Why we are referred to as Arminians I do not understand.

However, what Calvinists believe is called the T.U.L.I.P. for short:

T TOTAL DEPRAVITY. Man is so depraved he cannot come to God. God must make him do so.

U UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION. God chooses who will be lost and who will be saved....based on no condition..IOW,,,based on nothing at all.

L LIMITED ATONEMENT. Jesus did not die for the whole world, but only for those that God chooses to save.

I IRRESISTIBLE GRACE. God's grace cannot be resisted...If God wants you, He'll get you..IOW, you have no free will.

P PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS. The saints are those that God has chosen and they cannot lose their salvation.


I agree with you. I believe the reformed faith does not make logical sense.
What I learn from the bible is that God loves His creation.
God wishes that all could be saved.
Those that believe in God and the sacrifice of Jesus WILL be saved.

This is a big topic and cannot be handled in a few posts...but you're on the right track.

Total Depravity
In the fall of mankind, his entire being became fallen, contaminated, including his will. He did not loose his will, it, like all the rest of him became, as the Bible says, "at enmity with God" He did not loose the will to choose, he merely wouldn't choose God. Calvinism has never claimed that the fall removed man's free will, obviously we make free choices 24/7. However the Bible clearly says our will is enslaved to sin. How is that free?
unconditional election
God chooses who are His people, who will be saved, just as we see Him doing in the O.T. He does not choose randomly or for NO reason. God has a reason for everything He does. We don't know what His reason is, we only know that it has nothing to do with our merit or worthiness. The reason is hidden (by His choice) from us and is contained wholly within Him. Our election is not conditioned on anything about us.
limited atonement
Jesus died for His people. The ones God gave to Him from before the foundation of the world. He died for the sheep of His pasture. As such, His sacrifice accomplished in full and perfectly the purpose of the Father. There was no uncertainty or possibility that no one would choose Him and thus His sacrifice would be in vain.
lrrisistable grace
Our salvation is entirely dependant upon God's grace in giving us a heart of flesh (believing) instead of a heart of stone (hardness towards the things of God). There is no forcing, nothing done against our will,when God does this. We are changed, by the power of the Holy Spirit, the same power that raised Jesus from the dead, softened by and with love, so we are now willing and able to believe.This we cannot resist and why would we want to?
perseverance of the saints (believers)
In the words of Jesus, "I will loose none that the Father has given me."

 

[Avigdor]

ETERNAL SECURITY IS ALL IN HOW IT IS LIVED sy caps if one is using eternal security as reason to live like hell. then its not security in the least lil bit. we can in fact have this security .but not as a life style to live as one chooses

Like I said, not arguing for against or arguing about it period.

 

[jerry63935]

However the Bible clearly says our will is enslaved to sin. How is that free?

GOD GIVES US THE CHOICE TO BE SAVED caps again lol keep hitting it .he draws us but we can resist him. not advisable but we can

 

[jerry63935]

Like I said, not arguing for against or arguing about it period.

not arguing its a discussion arguing is saying i am right you are wrong end of discussion . that isa argument a discussion is exchanging points of views by scripture

 

[Avigdor]

GOD GIVES US THE CHOICE TO BE SAVED caps again lol keep hitting it .he draws us but we can resist him. not advisable but we can

Thanks for clarifying. I thought you were yelling at me! 2

 

[jerry63935]

Thanks for clarifying. I thought you were yelling at me! 2

nahh im bad about using caps . many times i use caps to make my point. yes it is supposed to be a form of yelling . imo its hard to yell at one from a computer key board . i have posted in a calvinism forum and yes it turned very ugly

 

[GodsGrace]

nahh im bad about using caps . many times i use caps to make my point. yes it is supposed to be a form of yelling . imo its hard to yell at one from a computer key board . i have posted in a calvinism forum and yes it turned very ugly

I've had the same experience.
They were not very nice.
I got banned after a week and I think you could see I'm very easy going.
I think they just like to stick together over on that forum and do not welcome others.
No problem with me....It's nicer here anyway.

 

[jerry63935]

I've had the same experience.
They were not very nice.
I got banned after a week and I think you could see I'm very easy going.
I think they just like to stick together over on that forum and do not welcome others.
No problem with me....It's nicer here anyway.

i was in carm i also joined different one once it lasted like dust in the wind. i spoke my peace left

 

[Avigdor]

I've had the same experience.
They were not very nice.
I got banned after a week and I think you could see I'm very easy going.
I think they just like to stick together over on that forum and do not welcome others.
No problem with me....It's nicer here anyway.

Where is "over there"?

 

[Avigdor]

The person on YouTube is in the comment section under a YouTube video. Their comment was very aggressive and accusatory. They attacked the pastor that did the video under one of my comments which agreed with the pastor that the end is near, but it’s not the end just yet. I got called a tare, a heretic, an Arminian and I child of Satan for my one comment.

Caution. There is no way to know if the person doing this video is Reformed/Calvinist or not, unless you are one and thourghly understand the theology. And even if he claims to be one, whether or not what he says is consistant with the theology. Geisler in "Chosen But Free" claims to be a moderate Calvinist when there is nothing of Calvinism in anything he says in the book. Just an example. When someone starts calling a complete stranger (or anyone) the things you say you were called, no matter what they claim their beliefs are they are not following Christian behavior as outlined in the Bible. Just stop listening to them, but don't discount an entire theological system onthe basis of one you tube video.

Right. If I go according to the logic that I can’t choose or refuse God’s gift of salvation, it would cause extreme doubt, rather than knowing I have eternal security.

So, not that I’m worried, but I believe that we shouldn’t have to have nagging thoughts in our head in regards to whether our belief is all in vain.

I’m willing to have this discussion in private/inbox if that’s better.

If you believe, you are saved, irregardless of how you think you arrived at your belief, whether by choice or Divine intervention. Nothing to worry about either way.

so as we can see this is pretty much a 2 party post

 

[Avigdor]

Right.
They just believe God is.

Really?! Are you sure about that?

 

[GodsGrace]

Total Depravity
In the fall of mankind, his entire being became fallen, contaminated, including his will. He did not loose his will, it, like all the rest of him became, as the Bible says, "at enmity with God" He did not loose the will to choose, he merely wouldn't choose God. Calvinism has never claimed that the fall removed man's free will, obviously we make free choices 24/7. However the Bible clearly says our will is enslaved to sin. How is that free?

Hi Avigdor,,,welcome to the forum. It's nice to have you here.

We all agree that man's entire being became fallen, contaminated.
Including his will?
Let's think for a moment.
Adam and Eve started out with libertarian Free Will.
Calvinism certainly claims that man lost his free will.
Calvinism claims that God predetermines man's EVERY DECISION 24/7.
If you don't believe this is correct,,,then, honestly, you need to study Calvinism some more.

Now, you may say I'm trying to state what you believe....but this excuse can no longer be accepted by me or others that are not reformed in belief.
Please check up on this. If you can't, I'll be happy to post paragraphs from Calvin's Institutes, but I don't understand why I have to prove what YOU believe.

By the time of Cain and Abel, man had lost free will according to you and so COULD NOT or WOULD NOT choose God.

Please explain why Abel chose God and pleased God if he was UNABLE to choose God..., as you state. Is the O.T. incorrect?

How are we enslaved to sin?
Because we PRESENT OURSELVES to the one we will be enslaved to.
Romans 6:16
16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

Please note that Paul states that we present OURSELVES to the one we wish to obey.

unconditional election

God chooses who are His people, who will be saved, just as we see Him doing in the O.T. He does not choose randomly or for NO reason. God has a reason for everything He does. We don't know what His reason is, we only know that it has nothing to do with our merit or worthiness. The reason is hidden (by His choice) from us and is contained wholly within Him. Our election is not conditioned on anything about us.

The above statement has a conflict.
First you state that God does NOT choose randomly for NO reason.
This means that God has a reason to choose us.
This means that His choice is conditional.

At the end you state that our election is NOT conditioned on anything about us.
This means God chooses UNCONDITIONALLY.

This is the OPPOSITE of your first statement.
Which is it?

I'll reply when you clarify your statement.
(I believe God chooses us conditionally).

limited atonement

Jesus died for His people. The ones God gave to Him from before the foundation of the world. He died for the sheep of His pasture. As such, His sacrifice accomplished in full and perfectly the purpose of the Father. There was no uncertainty or possibility that no one would choose Him and thus His sacrifice would be in vain.

The N.T. states that Jesus died for everyone that wishes to make efficacious use of His sacrifice.
1 John 2:2
2and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

Of couse this doctrine becomes null if one believes salvation is available to all men, as most Christians do believe.

It also implies that Jesus' sacrifice was not sufficient to save all mankind...
thus minimizing it.

lrrisistable grace

Our salvation is entirely dependant upon God's grace in giving us a heart of flesh (believing) instead of a heart of stone (hardness towards the things of God). There is no forcing, nothing done against our will,when God does this. We are changed, by the power of the Holy Spirit, the same power that raised Jesus from the dead, softened by and with love, so we are now willing and able to believe.This we cannot resist and why would we want to?

I'm having a problem discussing with you because I'm not sure you understand Calvinism.
What do you mean there is no forcing?
What is compatible free will?

perseverance of the saints (believers)

In the words of Jesus, "I will loose none that the Father has given me."

The above would require the absence of libertarian free will.
Jesus will not lose any of those the Father gave Him if they remain in Him and keep abiding in Him.

I, myself, can choose to walk away from God.
Jesus said that if we do not abide in Him,,,we will be thrown away like a dead branch.

John 15:5-6
5“I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
6“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. [/quote]

 

[GodsGrace]

Really?! Are you sure about that?

Right about what?
How about some syntax?
Thanks.