Total Depravity
In the fall of mankind, his entire being became fallen, contaminated, including his will. He did not loose his will, it, like all the rest of him became, as the Bible says, "at enmity with God" He did not loose the will to choose, he merely wouldn't choose God. Calvinism has never claimed that the fall removed man's free will, obviously we make free choices 24/7. However the Bible clearly says our will is enslaved to sin. How is that free?
Hi Avigdor,,,welcome to the forum. It's nice to have you here.
We all agree that man's entire being became fallen, contaminated.
Including his will?
Let's think for a moment.
Adam and Eve started out with libertarian Free Will.
Calvinism certainly claims that man lost his free will.
Calvinism claims that God predetermines man's EVERY DECISION 24/7.
If you don't believe this is correct,,,then, honestly, you need to study Calvinism some more.
Now, you may say I'm trying to state what you believe....but this excuse can no longer be accepted by me or others that are not reformed in belief.
Please check up on this. If you can't, I'll be happy to post paragraphs from Calvin's Institutes, but I don't understand why
I have to prove what YOU believe.
By the time of Cain and Abel, man had lost free will according to you and so COULD NOT or WOULD NOT choose God.
Please explain why Abel chose God and pleased God if he was UNABLE to choose God..., as you state. Is the O.T. incorrect?
How are we enslaved to sin?
Because we PRESENT OURSELVES to the one we will be enslaved to.
Romans 6:16
16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
Please note that Paul states that we present OURSELVES to the one we wish to obey.
God chooses who are His people, who will be saved, just as we see Him doing in the O.T. He does not choose randomly or for NO reason. God has a reason for everything He does. We don't know what His reason is, we only know that it has nothing to do with our merit or worthiness. The reason is hidden (by His choice) from us and is contained wholly within Him. Our election is not conditioned on anything about us.
The above statement has a conflict.
First you state that God does NOT choose randomly for NO reason.
This means that God has a reason to choose us.
This means that His choice is conditional.
At the end you state that our election is NOT conditioned on anything about us.
This means God chooses UNCONDITIONALLY.
This is the OPPOSITE of your first statement.
Which is it?
I'll reply when you clarify your statement.
(I believe God chooses us conditionally).
Jesus died for His people. The ones God gave to Him from before the foundation of the world. He died for the sheep of His pasture. As such, His sacrifice accomplished in full and perfectly the purpose of the Father. There was no uncertainty or possibility that no one would choose Him and thus His sacrifice would be in vain.
The N.T. states that Jesus died for everyone that wishes to make efficacious use of His sacrifice.
1 John 2:2
2and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
Of couse this doctrine becomes null if one believes salvation is available to all men, as most Christians do believe.
It also implies that Jesus' sacrifice was not sufficient to save all mankind...
thus minimizing it.
Our salvation is entirely dependant upon God's grace in giving us a heart of flesh (believing) instead of a heart of stone (hardness towards the things of God). There is no forcing, nothing done against our will,when God does this. We are changed, by the power of the Holy Spirit, the same power that raised Jesus from the dead, softened by and with love, so we are now willing and able to believe.This we cannot resist and why would we want to?
I'm having a problem discussing with you because I'm not sure you understand Calvinism.
What do you mean there is no forcing?
What is compatible free will?
perseverance of the saints (believers)
In the words of Jesus, "I will loose none that the Father has given me."
The above would require the absence of libertarian free will.
Jesus will not lose any of those the Father gave Him if they remain in Him and keep abiding in Him.
I, myself, can choose to walk away from God.
Jesus said that if we do not abide in Him,,,we will be thrown away like a dead branch.
John 15:5-6
5“I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
6“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. [/quote]