Sin

[elijah23]

check your browser....

When I am at work, where I do most of my posting on Mondays through Fridays, I have no control over my browser. I don't know much about browsers, anyway.

 

[elijah23]

good for you....


If we can do this then why did Jesus have to die?

Because we’ve all sinned.

Satan could spend all of eternity tormenting us because of that. Jesus never sinned, yet was crucified, and that saved us from Satan. That is my understanding.

 

[Alabaster]

Because we’ve all sinned.

Satan could spend all of eternity tormenting us because of that. Jesus never sinned, yet was crucified, and that saved us from Satan. That is my understanding.

Jesus' crucifixion saves us from the penalty of sin. His presence of the Holy Spirit gives us the power to defeat Satan's attempts to undermine Jesus' perfect work on the cross.

 

[glorydaz]

The olive tree is the nation of Israel. The branches are individual Jews, some of which have been cut off to make room for individual Gentiles to be grafted in.


Unbelief keeps people from God and it can also remove people from relationship with God. This whole passage is about Gentile believers who, it seems, thought they were better than the Jews, having been grafted in where branches were removed. Paul is warning them to not think so highly of themselves but rather to fear God because if he did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare them either.

It could not be clearer that those grafted in are believers. They are already grafted in and yet Paul states that they may be removed.

You have yet to address this point.

The Jews were God's covenant people whether they were regenerate or not.

Then God made a new covenant with the house of Israel and Judah.

For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Eph. 2 tells us Gentiles were "aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenant promises. By being grafted in, the Gentiles now have access to the faith of Abraham and the covenant promises...through the Gospel itself. The New Covenant includes Jews and Gentiles...whosoever will may come. Gentiles are now included in the new covenant with the house of Israel because we have been grafted into the olive tree (God's covenant people). A covenant is an agreement between God and His people in which God makes specific promises and demands. We know the promises and we know the demands. When we enter by faith, we are not in danger of being cut off for unbelief. Unbelief is why all branches are cut off....it was true for the Jews, it's true for the gentiles.

 

[jasoncran]

When I am at work, where I do most of my posting on Mondays through Fridays, I have no control over my browser. I don't know much about browsers, anyway.

hardcourt fenton mudd said that on that planet of the robots.

 

[Free]

When we enter by faith, we are not in danger of being cut off for unbelief. Unbelief is why all branches are cut off....it was true for the Jews, it's true for the gentiles.

Your very last statement, "it's true for the gentiles," contradicts everything else you stated prior. Gentiles can only be cut off iff they have already been grafted in.

Rom 11:20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.
Rom 11:21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
Rom 11:22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

Please explain how gentiles can be cut off if they were never grafted in in the first place.

 

[Drew]

When we enter by faith, we are not in danger of being cut off for unbelief.

Well, let's see what Paul has to say on this matter. Here is a statement made to Gentiles in Romans 11:

But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that (AD)it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19(AE)You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." 20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith (AG)Do not be conceited, but fear;

Despite what your tradition may be telling you, we need to let Paul decide the matter. Here, Paul is clearly talking about the Gentile - do you deny this gd? And what is the state of the Gentile that he is addressing? It is the state of one who, yes, has faith. Do you deny this, gd? Do you deny that Paul is talking to Gentiles who have faith? It will be interesting to see how you explain - in light of what Paul actually writes as contrasted to what tradition tells you - how it is the case that Paul is addressing somebody other than Gentile believers (if indeed you deny that Paul is addressing Gentile believers).

Now, what does Paul say will happen to those Gentile believers who do not heed his warning (above):

for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's (AH)kindness, (AI)if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also (AJ)will be cut off.

Clearly, Paul is warning Gentile believers of the possibility of final loss. Gd, are you denying that the above text is warning about loss of membership in God's family (and therefore of final justification and salvation)?

We really need to confront what Paul actually writes, and not simply appeal to what our various traditions are telling us. It may be comforting to believe that one cannot be lost, once one has entered into faith. But what Paul actually writes here cannot be reconciled with such a view.

There is, I suggest, an "emperor with no clothes" thing going on here. The text is clear - the Gentile believer (one who is identified as standing in faith) can indeed suffer final loss.

The worrying thing is that so many would rather listen to tradition than to what the text actually says.

 

[Drew]

Please explain how gentiles can be cut off if they were never grafted in in the first place.

If I may speculate a little.....The person who maintains that Romans 11 is not warning about the final loss of a believing Gentile seems forced into the following position: they need to be able to see the "cutting off" of the "grafted in" Gentile believer as something other than the loss of personal salvation by the believing Gentile individual.

I am not sure how this can be done. The "target" of the Pauline warning is clearly the Gentile. And it is equally clear that this Gentile is in a position of already being in faith when the warning is issued:

but you (AF)stand by your faith

Given that Paul warns this Gentile that he will befall the same fate as the "cut off" Jew - a Jew who is clearly now on the outside of the family of God - it is indeed curious how this can read as anything other than a threat about the possibility of final loss.

 

[Alabaster]

Given that Paul warns this Gentile that he will befall the same fate as the "cut off" Jew - a Jew who is clearly now on the outside of the family of God - it is indeed curious how this can read as anything other than a threat about the possibility of final loss.

The Jews are still invited to be in the family of God.

Romans 11:1-8 NLT
1 I ask, then, has God rejected his own people, the nation of Israel? Of course not! I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham and a member of the tribe of Benjamin.

2 No, God has not rejected his own people, whom he chose from the very beginning. Do you realize what the Scriptures say about this? Elijah the prophet complained to God about the people of Israel and said, 3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars. I am the only one left, and now they are trying to kill me, too.”
4 And do you remember God’s reply? He said, “No, I have 7,000 others who have never bowed down to Baal!”
5 It is the same today, for a few of the people of Israel have remained faithful because of God’s grace—his undeserved kindness in choosing them. 6 And since it is through God’s kindness, then it is not by their good works. For in that case, God’s grace would not be what it really is—free and undeserved.
7 So this is the situation: Most of the people of Israel have not found the favor of God they are looking for so earnestly. A few have—the ones God has chosen—but the hearts of the rest were hardened. 8 As the Scriptures say, “God has put them into a deep sleep.
To this day he has shut their eyes so they do not see,
and closed their ears so they do not hear.”


verse 11:
11 Did God’s people stumble and fall beyond recovery? Of course not! They were disobedient, so God made salvation available to the Gentiles.

 

[Drew]

The Jews are still invited to be in the family of God.

I am fully aware of this. When I referred to "the Jew that is cut off", I was referrning to that subset of Jews who, according to Paul, have indeed been hardened unto final loss. Trust me - I am fully aware that Paul is arguing that not all Jews fall into this category. The fact that some Jews are cut-off (and some are not) is entirely irrelevant to the point at issue - that Paul is raising the possibilty of final loss for Gentiles who presently "stand in faith".

In any event, are you prepared to address the challenges that Free and I (and perhaps others) have presented in respect to a faithful reading of the material from Romans 11?

 

[elijah23]

hardcourt fenton mudd said that on that planet of the robots.

Hardcourt Fenton Mudd was a wise man, indeed.

 

[glorydaz]

Your very last statement, "it's true for the gentiles," contradicts everything else you stated prior. Gentiles can only be cut off iff they have already been grafted in.

Rom 11:20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.
Rom 11:21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
Rom 11:22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

Please explain how gentiles can be cut off if they were never grafted in in the first place.

The question is grafted into what? You seem to be saying this speaks of the gentiles being grafted into Christ, and can therefore be "cut off" from Christ. But the olive tree isn't Christ but the covenants and promises to Israel. The gentiles have been grafted in among them, they have now been exposed to the light the Jews have always had. As many as were ordained to eternal life believed. Not all gentiles believe, just as not all Jews believe...those who remain in unbelief will be cut off.

For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth. And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. And the word of the Lord was published throughout all the region.

The richness and goodness of God's grace has now been made available to all men (not just the Jews) through the New Covenant. I see being grafted onto the good olive tree as "opening the door of faith" to the Gentiles.

And when they were come, and had gathered the church together, they rehearsed all that God had done with them, and how he had opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles.

 

[glorydaz]

I am fully aware of this. When I referred to "the Jew that is cut off", I was referrning to that subset of Jews who, according to Paul, have indeed been hardened unto final loss. Trust me - I am fully aware that Paul is arguing that not all Jews fall into this category. The fact that some Jews are cut-off (and some are not) is entirely irrelevant to the point at issue - that Paul is raising the possibilty of final loss for Gentiles who presently "stand in faith".

In any event, are you prepared to address the challenges that Free and I (and perhaps others) have presented in respect to a faithful reading of the material from Romans 11?

It can't be "final loss", Drew, (for Paul says, God forbid), nor is Paul speaking of individuals when he refers to the olive trees. He is speaking prophetically of the nation of Israel and their future return to fulness. Paul is looking at a broader perpective than what you seem to see in these passages of scripture. If you pick one part to pertain to individuals, you're ignoring the entire part concerning the covenant.

I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

Yes, the gentiles now "standest by faith" "among them", meaning having access through the covenant to the faith of Abraham and the promises of God.

And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

 

[glorydaz]

The person who maintains that Romans 11 is not warning about the final loss of a believing Gentile seems forced into the following position: they need to be able to see the "cutting off" of the "grafted in" Gentile believer as something other than the loss of personal salvation by the believing Gentile individual.

I am not sure how this can be done.

It can be done through the promises of God....given that we may KNOW we have ETERNAL life, and can't be lost or cut off because of a misunderstanding of certain other scripture.

These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

 

[Oats]

if pride is not the root


what brings up evil desires?

pleasure

is it not that we think we deserve to sin?

no

We all have pleasure, we all sin...

so in some sense we are both correct


----

If I had no desire to sin, I most likely would not sin.

If I have a desire to sin, I could either

1.Trust God- humility
2. Trust Myself- pride


-----

All sin comes from desire to sin, and is acted out in pride

 

[Free]

The question is grafted into what? You seem to be saying this speaks of the gentiles being grafted into Christ, and can therefore be "cut off" from Christ. But the olive tree isn't Christ but the covenants and promises to Israel. The gentiles have been grafted in among them, they have now been exposed to the light the Jews have always had. As many as were ordained to eternal life believed. Not all gentiles believe, just as not all Jews believe...those who remain in unbelief will be cut off.

What you seem to keep missing is that to be grafted in one already has to be a believer. Unbelievers are not grafted in and then removed. That would go against Paul's analogy. One doesn't graft a dead branch in the place of a dead branch and then remove it if it remains unfruitful. One only grafts in a good, fruitful branch and then if it became unfruitful later on it would get removed.

Paul is clear that it is belief that gets on grafted on in the first place, just as the natural branches that remain remain because of their belief.

It cannot be said any clearer than what Paul has already said: "For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either" and "toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off." This is clearly in reference to believers--"you stand by faith" and "toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness."

Or do you really think that unbelievers "stand by faith" and are "in His goodness?"

The richness and goodness of God's grace has now been made available to all men (not just the Jews) through the New Covenant. I see being grafted onto the good olive tree as "opening the door of faith" to the Gentiles.

That certainly isn't what Paul wrote. You must let the text speak for itself and let go of all your doctrinal presuppositions.

 

[Drew]

It can be done through the promises of God....given that we may KNOW we have ETERNAL life, and can't be lost or cut off because of a misunderstanding of certain other scripture.

You are not engaging the text. You cannot (properly anyway) address my challenge simply by quoting other texts.

So I will repeat - how can the Romans 11 material be read as anything other than a warning to the believing Gentile that final loss is a possibility. Please address the Romans 11 text itself and explain how it can be read as anything other than a warning about the possibility of final loss for the believing Gentile.

 

[Drew]

It can't be "final loss", Drew, (for Paul says, God forbid), ....

You are obviously begging the question (assuming the truth of the position that you should be demonstrating). I suggest you will not be able to produce any Biblically grounded argument for "one saved always saved".

nor is Paul speaking of individuals when he refers to the olive trees. He is speaking prophetically of the nation of Israel and their future return to fulness. Paul is looking at a broader perpective than what you seem to see in these passages of scripture. If you pick one part to pertain to individuals, you're ignoring the entire part concerning the covenant.

You are evading the challenge. I am not talking about the promised "return to fulness" of national Israel - I am talking about Paul's explicit statement to Gentiles. You are simply avoiding a text which, of course, is exceedingly challenging to the position to which you ascribe. To repeat:

1. Paul issues a warning to Gentiles who, yes, stand in faith. Such Gentiles must, of course, be believers. Non-believers cannot be characterized as "standing in faith".

2. Paul warns them of the possibility that they will suffer the same fate as those Jews who were hardened to final loss.

Do you dispute either or both of these statements?:

I am aware of the stuff at the end of chapter which seemingly speaks of Israel's return to fulness. However, the fact that Paul talks about this at the end of the chapter does not negate his warning to the Gentile believer.

 

[farouk]

Regarding true believers, the Lord Jesus said that noone could pluck them out of His Father's hand.

 

[glorydaz]

What you seem to keep missing is that to be grafted in one already has to be a believer. Unbelievers are not grafted in and then removed. That would go against Paul's analogy. One doesn't graft a dead branch in the place of a dead branch and then remove it if it remains unfruitful. One only grafts in a good, fruitful branch and then if it became unfruitful later on it would get removed.

Paul is clear that it is belief that gets on grafted on in the first place, just as the natural branches that remain remain because of their belief.

It cannot be said any clearer than what Paul has already said: "For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either" and "toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off." This is clearly in reference to believers--"you stand by faith" and "toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness."

Or do you really think that unbelievers "stand by faith" and are "in His goodness?"


That certainly isn't what Paul wrote. You must let the text speak for itself and let go of all your doctrinal presuppositions.

LOL I have no doctrinal presuppositions, only the doctrine of the Apostles.

One only grafts in a good, fruitful branch and then if it became unfruitful later on it would get removed.

I can't agree, Free. "And you, though a wild olive shoot..."

If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root,

The Gentiles were an "unfruitful" olive shoot. They were now grafted into the covenant relationship only enjoyed by the Jews prior to the Lord's death. Where once, the nation of Israel, enjoyed God's favor, Christ's death reconciled the whole world. The Gentiles could now "draw near" through the New Covenant.

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

The Gentiles, being reconciled to God by the death of Christ, now having access to the promises given to Abraham (which is what the grafting does), are now equal to the Jews. They can remain in unbelief (and be cut off), or they can believe and partake of the nourishment offered by Christ so they can produce fruit.

Remember, it's the GOODNESS OF GOD that leads to repentance...which then leads to salvation.

The Jews' obedience to the Law was an expression of a covenant relationship, but what mattered to God was Israel’s faith and commitment to Him. It was an inward disposition of faith and fear of God in a covenant relationship on which the Gentiles could now stand....being grafted into a covenant relationship, themselves.