Sin

[Alabaster]

I doubt it. There are a number of texts, not least this one from Hebrews that suggest that a person can indeed "fall away" and suffer ultimate loss:

If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?

Besides, I suggest that you have adopted a model for the nature of salvation that simply does not honour what Paul actually writes. In short, despite what so many believe, Paul does not see salvation as "one-time" event. In fact, Paul at various places refers to salvation in past, present, and future terms. Things are not as simple as they seem, and Paul's model of salvation has a clear "tense" structure - there are senses in which the believer is saved at the point of belief as well as in the future.

What Paul writes is about those who continually sin deliberately. These people are not saved. Truly saved people experience Christ and regeneration, that comes with a sensitivity to sin. He is talking about false converts.

 

[glorydaz]

I doubt it. There are a number of texts, not least this one from Hebrews that suggest that a person can indeed "fall away" and suffer ultimate loss:

Besides, I suggest that you have adopted a model for the nature of salvation that simply does not honour what Paul actually writes. In short, despite what so many believe, Paul does not see salvation as "one-time" event. In fact, Paul at various places refers to salvation in past, present, and future terms. Things are not as simple as they seem, and Paul's model of salvation has a clear "tense" structure - there are senses in which the believer is saved at the point of belief as well as in the future.

Drew, most, if not all sin is "willful", so it cannot suggest that a person will suffer "ultimate loss". If you read further, you'll see "punishments" and "rewards" which the believer will receive at the judgment seat of Christ.

This portion of scripture is speaking to those Hebrew believers who might abandon the Christian assemblies and go back to Judaism where there remained no sacrifice for sin in God's new economy of the New Covenant. That would be an insult to the Spirit of Grace. The "punishment" of v. 29 is not the second death, as the believer has already entered into eternal life.

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Here again, it is impossible for the (Hebrew) believer...if they shall fall away (and return to Judaism) to "renew" or repeat the repentance that was already made...it isn't necessary as it would mean Christ needed to be crucified again. He died "once for all". Our "thorns and briers" are rejected and burned up, but better things "accompany salvation". These can be seen in the Promises of God. We do tend to forget the promises, but we really need to keep them in mind when we try to interpret these verses.

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned. But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

We are saved when we are born of God.

That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Our future salvation is the redemption of our body.

And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

 

[Alabaster]

Drew, most, if not all sin is "willful", so it cannot suggest that a person will suffer "ultimate loss". If you read further, you'll see "punishments" and "rewards" which the believer will receive at the judgment seat of Christ.

This portion of scripture is speaking to those Hebrew believers who might abandon the Christian assemblies and go back to Judaism where there remained no sacrifice for sin in God's new economy of the New Covenant. That would be an insult to the Spirit of Grace. The "punishment" of v. 29 is not the second death, as the believer has already entered into eternal life.

Here again, it is impossible for the (Hebrew) believer...if they shall fall away (and return to Judaism) to "renew" or repeat the repentance that was already made...it isn't necessary as it would mean Christ needed to be crucified again. He died "once for all". Our "thorns and briers" are rejected and burned up, but better things "accompany salvation". These can be seen in the Promises of God. We do tend to forget the promises, but we really need to keep them in mind when we try to interpret these verses.


We are saved when we are born of God.


Our future salvation is the redemption of our body.

 

[benjamin-benjamin]

so was Jesus wasting his breath when he wrote to the 7 churches???

 

[Alabaster]

so was Jesus wasting his breath when he wrote to the 7 churches???

Could you please explain why you've asked this question?

 

[Oats]

Question 1 seems to assume that once you are saved, you are always saved. I reject that premise.

dude...chill

i just asked a question....

stay on topic

----

I just wanted to see what people thought about the ungreat negator...

 

[Oats]

Unrighteous people might not think they are suffering, because they don’t know how beautiful life can be when we obey the commandments of the Lord, but I think they suffer a lot.

do you sin

 

[benjamin-benjamin]

Could you please explain why you've asked this question?

sure read post 6, where i point out the numerous times God said he was going to reject his churches..

 

[elijah23]

It is a false message to tell people that life is beautiful when we come to Jesus.

When we first come to Jesus, we are very sinful. Over a period of time Jesus leads us to repent of our sin. Once we repent of our sin, life becomes very beautiful.

 

[Drew]

What Paul writes is about those who continually sin deliberately. These people are not saved. Truly saved people experience Christ and regeneration, that comes with a sensitivity to sin. He is talking about false converts.

No - you are not honouring what Paul actually writes. Here is the text again:

If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?

You would have readers believe that a "false convert" has not "received knowledge of the truth". Not likely - a person who has received knowledge of the truth has, yes, received knowledge of the truth. That person is not a false convert - only a real believer would have received knowledge of the truth.

Similarly, you would have the reader believe that a "false convert" has been sanctified by the blood of the covenant. How can a false convert be sanctified by the blood of the covenant?

Again, proper exegesis honours what Paul writes in the fine-grained detail. And in this text, as well as in others, it is clear that person who has already been "received salvation and been sanctified" can indeed fall away and be lost.

 

[elijah23]

do you sin

Yes, though I try very hard not to and have figured out that are misery comes as the result of our sin. Therefore, don’t sin.

 

[elijah23]

dude...chill

i just asked a question....

stay on topic

----

I just wanted to see what people thought about the ungreat negator...

Why is your avatar six times the size of my screen?

 

[Free]

If you are truly saved, then you are always saved, and if you wander away, you will see heaven, but lose rewards.

The passages in Scripture which show this not to be the case are numerous. In addition to the passage from Hebrews:

Rom 11:16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree,
Rom 11:18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.
Rom 11:19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in."
Rom 11:20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.
Rom 11:21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
Rom 11:22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. (NKJV)

 

[Alabaster]

When we first come to Jesus, we are very sinful. Over a period of time Jesus leads us to repent of our sin. Once we repent of our sin, life becomes very beautiful.

Where do you get that from?

 

[Alabaster]

The passages in Scripture which show this not to be the case are numerous. In addition to the passage from Hebrews:

Rom 11:16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree,
Rom 11:18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.
Rom 11:19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in."
Rom 11:20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.
Rom 11:21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
Rom 11:22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. (NKJV)

A true believer will never be cut off. He says He will NEVER allow us to be snatched from out of His hand. Paul was talking to the Church as a people in general, not people specifically.

 

[elijah23]

Where do you get that from?

Experience.

 

[Free]

A true believer will never be cut off. He says He will NEVER allow us to be snatched from out of His hand. Paul was talking to the Church as a people in general, not people specifically.

Regardless, my point stands. Believers can be cut off.

 

[Alabaster]

Regardless, my point stands. Believers can be cut off.

Sorry, only unbelievers are cut off.

 

[Free]

Sorry, only unbelievers are cut off.

Don't be sorry but do actually deal with the text and what Paul says. He is clearly speaking to believers, telling them they can be cut off. Only those grafted on can be cut off.

 

[Alabaster]

Don't be sorry but do actually deal with the text and what Paul says. He is clearly speaking to believers, telling them they can be cut off. Only those grafted on can be cut off.

It's really interesting when you study the context. In Israeli vineyards, the gardeners would inspect the vines for a common problem with insects. They would take the infested branches and wash them off, then LIFT THEM UP out of the dirt , raising them away from the infesting insects. The words used for 'lifting up' were 'cutting off'.

Just like God, the gardener, when He discovers our fallenness and infestation, He washes us off and lifts us up.