Sin

[Free]

It's really interesting when you study the context. In Israeli vineyards, the gardeners would inspect the vines for a common problem with insects. They would take the infested branches and wash them off, then LIFT THEM UP out of the dirt , raising them away from the infesting insects. The words used for 'lifting up' were 'cutting off'.

Just like God, the gardener, when He discovers our fallenness and infestation, He washes us off and lifts us up.

Whether or not that is what gardeners do is of little consequence as that has nothing to do with what Paul is saying. It clearly is not the context.

The branches are the Jews and the root is Christ. Gentile believers are grafted in. Your analogy does not come close to this context.

 

[Alabaster]

Whether or not that is what gardeners do is of little consequence as that has nothing to do with what Paul is saying. It clearly is not the context.

The branches are the Jews and the root is Christ. Gentile believers are grafted in. Your analogy does not come close to this context.

God doesn't give up on His own. You cannot really know the God of the Universe and be cut off. Those who find themselves outside of the Kingdom will know they are there because they NEVER believed, never knew Christ personally. Like Judas, who hung with the right crowd, they didn't experience Jesus.

 

[Free]

God doesn't give up on His own. You cannot really know the God of the Universe and be cut off. Those who find themselves outside of the Kingdom will know they are there because they NEVER believed, never knew Christ personally. Like Judas, who hung with the right crowd, they didn't experience Jesus.

And yet that clearly isn't what Paul is saying. Is it that this text doesn't fit with your theology that you don't really engage it? This passage is about Jews and Gentile believers, not unbelievers.

 

[Oats]

Why is your avatar six times the size of my screen?

check your browser....

 

[Oats]

Yes, though I try very hard not to and have figured out that are misery comes as the result of our sin. Therefore, don’t sin.

good for you....


If we can do this then why did Jesus have to die?

 

[Alabaster]

And yet that clearly isn't what Paul is saying. Is it that this text doesn't fit with your theology that you don't really engage it? This passage is about Jews and Gentile believers, not unbelievers.

And in general, how the Kingdom is now offered to the Gentile, and should the Gentiles in general refuse it as the Jews have, then the offer of the Kingdom to the Gentiles, in general, will be removed.

 

[Free]

And in general, how the Kingdom is now offered to the Gentile, and should the Gentiles in general refuse it as the Jews have, then the offer of the Kingdom to the Gentiles, in general, will be removed.

Again, this is not what Paul is saying. Notice the context:

Rom 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
Rom 11:14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them.
Rom 11:15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
Rom 11:16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. (NKJV)

And then:

Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree,
Rom 11:18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.
Rom 11:19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in."
Rom 11:20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.
Rom 11:21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
Rom 11:22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And they also,if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
Rom 11:24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? (NKJV)

Do you see it now?

God removed the unbelieving branches in order to graft in those Gentiles who do believe, those Gentiles which were first removed from the wild olive tree. This means they were first removed from the world and its belief systems on the basis of their faith in God and grafted in to the cultivated olive tree where the unbelieving Jews had been removed.

The analogy Paul uses is this: useless branches in a cultivated olive tree, that is, branches which should produce fruit but don't, are removed and branches which do produce fruit are grafted in. Yet, not only do these grafted in branches produce fruit, they are from the wild olive tree, not another cultivated one. It is this act of cultivating which keeps the tree fruitful. God was bringing in Gentiles to keep his kingdom fruitful.

Paul is warning those Gentiles who think themselves better than the natural branches to be careful and fear God (something Jesus says to do also) because He can remove those who stop believing and re-graft in those who begin believing again.

 

[Alabaster]

The warning is to the Gentiles as a group, a whole, the Church. Not individuals. He was delineating God's new Covenant.

 

[jasoncran]

The warning is to the Gentiles as a group, a whole, the Church. Not individuals. He was delineating God's new Covenant.

its both.

the church and gentile is grafted but that is also stating what free says clearly.

all the warning and blessings go the jew first then the gentile.

 

[lamplady]

if pride is not the root


what brings up evil desires?

pleasure

is it not that we think we deserve to sin?

no

Pride is saying i can solve my problems i don't need God he doesn't understand...

isn't that all sin

Yes. Pride is when you're full of yourself or think they alone are of some importance.

for you to say no so boldly is if you have solved the problem....

I was answering your question how I understood it. You asked: "is it not that we think we deserve to sin?", meaning pride, (?), but I said "no", meaning that's not how I see pride is.



God resist the proud but gives GRACE to the humble

----
back to guitar

 

[Drew]

The warning is to the Gentiles as a group, a whole, the Church. Not individuals. He was delineating God's new Covenant.

You are not really addressing Free's point. As I believe Free has already pointed out, a fine-grained reading of text - one that honours the details of what Paul actually wrote, shows that, indeed, Paul is speaking to Gentile believers and warning them of the possibility of loss.

How do we know that Paul is writing to Gentile believers? Well, if it were not otherwise obvious (i.e. from the fact that the letter is addressed to the church at Rome), Paul makes it clear that the intended recipient of his warning is indeed a Gentile who has already come to faith:

If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root

How, Alabaster, is this not a clear indication that Paul is addressing Gentile believers? It is clear from context that he is indeed addressing Gentiles. And how can a person who has already been "grafted in" not be a believer? Please address this question directly.

Secondly, what is Paul warning these Gentile believers about? It is clear that he is warning them of the possibility that they can, yes, be lost:

Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. 22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off

I simply see no way how this text can be read as anything other than a warning to the Gentile believers that they may be lost.

I see no basis for this "whole church vs individuals" reading that you seem to embrace.

 

[benjamin-benjamin]

drew and free, don't waste your time, i have asked her numerous times to address obvious, basic theological issues and she (and others) just ignores it, this is not difficult to understand, if we took these passages to atheist (that don't know anything about the bible) and others that know nothing of the bible (or even children) there would be no real disagreement on what these passages say, the only disagreement you will get is when someone's beliefs are already predetermined before they even look at it.... same thing we see in darwinism, numerous scientists have said "everything appears to be designed, but since we know there is no God then this must be the solution", basically since they have already predetermined what their belief is they put solutions there that fit that belief. This is no different...

 

[glorydaz]

God removed the unbelieving branches in order to graft in those Gentiles who do believe, those Gentiles which were first removed from the wild olive tree. This means they were first removed from the world and its belief systems on the basis of their faith in God and grafted in to the cultivated olive tree where the unbelieving Jews had been removed.

Israel was the true vine, not all were saved as the branches were cut off for "unbelief". Gentiles are the wild "olive tree" grafted onto the true vine of Israel. They now had the same gospel message as had been available to only the Jews previously. Those gentiles who "don't believe" will be cut off just as unbelieving Jews were cut off. This has nothing to do with a saved individual being saved and then cut off. This is why the Gentiles were grafted on...

Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

 

[Free]

Israel was the true vine, not all were saved as the branches were cut off for "unbelief". Gentiles are the wild "olive tree" grafted onto the true vine of Israel. They now had the same gospel message as had been available to only the Jews previously. Those gentiles who "don't believe" will be cut off just as unbelieving Jews were cut off. This has nothing to do with a saved individual being saved and then cut off. This is why the Gentiles were grafted on...

For some reason you too are not reading what Paul actually wrote. There are bolded and underlined parts of the text in both mine and Drew's posts which clearly show that Gentiles, once grafted in, can be removed if they don't continue in their belief. This is a passage to believers about believers. The only unbelievers mentioned are the Jews who are removed from the olive tree. There is no explicit mention of unbelieving Gentiles.

 

[benjamin-benjamin]

For some reason you too are not reading what Paul actually wrote. There are bolded and underlined parts of the text in both mine and Drew's posts which clearly show that Gentiles, once grafted in, can be removed if they don't continue in their belief. This is a passage to believers about believers. The only unbelievers mentioned are the Jews who are removed from the olive tree. There is no explicit mention of unbelieving Gentiles.

you are right, you have to misconstrue the bible to get that conclusion...

 

[Alabaster]

Israel was the true vine, not all were saved as the branches were cut off for "unbelief". Gentiles are the wild "olive tree" grafted onto the true vine of Israel. They now had the same gospel message as had been available to only the Jews previously. Those gentiles who "don't believe" will be cut off just as unbelieving Jews were cut off. This has nothing to do with a saved individual being saved and then cut off. This is why the Gentiles were grafted on...

 

[glorydaz]

For some reason you too are not reading what Paul actually wrote. There are bolded and underlined parts of the text in both mine and Drew's posts which clearly show that Gentiles, once grafted in, can be removed if they don't continue in their belief. This is a passage to believers about believers. The only unbelievers mentioned are the Jews who are removed from the olive tree. There is no explicit mention of unbelieving Gentiles.

One needs to keep the promises of God in mind when interpreting any particular portion of Scripture. If they negate the promises, the interpretation is wrong. If you notice in chapters 9 and 10, it may seem to indicate that God, after having chosen Israel, has now given up on them. But with chapter 11, Paul, using himself and Elijah as examples, proves that is not the case. He begins this way in verse 1..... "I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew." He goes on to say Israel stumbled on the stone of stumbling, Christ (9:32) but did not fall.. We see here he's speaking of the nation of Israel, not individual believers. The same holds true with the Gentiles, the wild olive tree, who are grafted in among the natural branches. Gentiles are now given the same opportunity as the nation of Israel.

"I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy."

Speaking of Israel, verse 23 says, if they do not continue in "unbelief", will be grafted in again. Which will occur at the Lord's second coming (vs. 26). So this entire portion of scripture is concerning the nation of Israel and the Gentiles and the covenant of grace available to both. vs. 29 goes on to speak of the "calling of God" as being "inrevocable", and they are still the people of God positionally. Unbelief is the only thing that can keep us from God.

 

[Drew]

Those gentiles who "don't believe" will be cut off just as unbelieving Jews were cut off. This has nothing to do with a saved individual being saved and then cut off.

You are not honouring the text - Paul clearly identifies the Gentiles as having already been grafted in. So we have a pretty clear argument: Gentiles who have been grafted in to the family of God can indeed be "cut off" - a clear articulation of the possibility of losing salvation.

The argument that Paul is not talking about "individual Gentiles" simply cannot work. If Paul is really talking about the class of Gentiles (and is not concerned with matters of individual Gentiles), then we have Paul saying that God might withdraw the possibility of salvation from all Gentiles - the class of Gentiles. Surely this cannot be - God deciding to revoke the possibility of salvation from all Gentiles.

 

[Alabaster]

You are not honouring the text - Paul clearly identifies the Gentiles as having already been grafted in. So we have a pretty clear argument: Gentiles who have been grafted in to the family of God can indeed be "cut off" - a clear articulation of the possibility of losing salvation.

The argument that Paul is not talking about "individual Gentiles" simply cannot work. If Paul is really talking about the class of Gentiles (and is not concerned with matters of individual Gentiles), then we have Paul saying that God might withdraw the possibility of salvation from all Gentiles - the class of Gentiles. Surely this cannot be - God deciding to revoke the possibility of salvation from all Gentiles.

Why not? Remember Noah?

 

[Free]

We see here he's speaking of the nation of Israel, not individual believers. The same holds true with the Gentiles, the wild olive tree, who are grafted in among the natural branches. Gentiles are now given the same opportunity as the nation of Israel.

The olive tree is the nation of Israel. The branches are individual Jews, some of which have been cut off to make room for individual Gentiles to be grafted in.

Speaking of Israel, verse 23 says, if they do not continue in "unbelief", will be grafted in again. Which will occur at the Lord's second coming (vs. 26). So this entire portion of scripture is concerning the nation of Israel and the Gentiles and the covenant of grace available to both. vs. 29 goes on to speak of the "calling of God" as being "inrevocable", and they are still the people of God positionally. Unbelief is the only thing that can keep us from God.

Unbelief keeps people from God and it can also remove people from relationship with God. This whole passage is about Gentile believers who, it seems, thought they were better than the Jews, having been grafted in where branches were removed. Paul is warning them to not think so highly of themselves but rather to fear God because if he did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare them either.

It could not be clearer that those grafted in are believers. They are already grafted in and yet Paul states that they may be removed.

You have yet to address this point.