Sinless To Be Saved

[GodsGrace]

It is also to know Christ.

Joh 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.

Joh 20:30 Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book;
Joh 20:31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Act 4:12 And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

(All ESV.)

The thing is, the default for everyone is eternity apart from God. Salvation is only found through Jesus, through believing both who he is and in his atoning work on the cross and resurrection. There is no other way to be saved, whether Jew or Gentile.

So those who have never heard of Jesus are doomed....?
From the beginning of time?

Then how were those in the OT saved?

Jesus DID die for everyone.
Unlimited atonement.

Everyone on earth who ever lived and is saved....is saved due to the sacrifice of Jesus to pay for the sin of Adam and Eve before a just God.

1 John 2:2
2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
And, you'd have to explain Romans 1:19-22
WHY no excuse for everyone?

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
Also, do you believe Lydia would have been lost had she not ever met Paul?
Acts 16:14-15
14 A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul.
15 And when she and her household had been baptized,

God opened her heart to the gospel.
But she WORSHIPPED God even before she met Paul.

If a person believes in God and obeys God....they can be lost?

 

[GodsGrace]

I don't know that's up to God not me

Good reply.
Let's keep it at that.

God has revealed Himself to all mankind...
not to just a small part of humanity living in the middle east 2,000 years ago.

 

[Free]

So everyone on the entire earth,,,who lived before the cross and from the beginning of time...
who did not hear about Jesus, is doomed?

Not at all.

Unlimited atonement.
Jesus died for the sins OF THE WHOLE world.

This is very close, too close, to Universalism. Be careful. The atonement is only applied to those who believe.

Jesus bought back everyone so that those that desire to believe in God, can be saved.

What do you mean by "Jesus brought back everyone"?

How were the OT saints saved?
By faith.
How was Abel saved?
Noah?
Abraham?
Jonah?
etc.

Yes, by faith, but faith in what?

Everyone is saved by faith in God

Those are saved and will be saved, are saved and will be saved by grace, through faith, in Christ (and his work). There is no other way.

and obedience to God.

No, that is the false gospel Paul so strongly warns about in Gal. 1:6-10. Obedience to God is the result of being justified and leads to our sanctification and eventual glorification.

I'd like to get into Acts, but first HOW do you understand

Romans 1:18-20
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

Everyone can know about God.
No one will have an excuse...because God has revealed Himself to everyone.

Yes. The point is that such knowledge should push people to seek him, but instead people ignored that and "did not honor him as God or give thanks to him" (1:21). What it doesn't say is that people can be saved from such knowledge about God.

 

[D-D-W]

I'll ask you what I asked the other member....

Is there a conflict here?

John 14:6
6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.
John 6:37
37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly * not cast out.
Does Jesus lead us to God
or
Does God give us to Jesus?

LOL! No conflict actually. Hebrew (biblical) logic is different than Aristotelian logic and can easily accommodate both statements.

Also, you'd have to explain ...

Romans 1:19-22
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

WHY will no one have an excuse?

Because when they see HIM, (final judgement) they will know that they rebelled against HIM. No excuse.

 

[GodsGrace]

So, you are going to question God's Word? "I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!" (Gal. 2:21) No---we were NOT ABLE to keep the law 100%.

Who said we were/are?
I don't know any §Christian that believes he could keep all the commandments perfectly.

That's the whole point. Jesus died because NONE OF US is righteous enough to get to Heaven on our own.

No. That's not the reason.
There are a few atonement theories...at least 7 that I know of.
These explain why Jesus died for EVERYONE on earth.

1 John 2:2
2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

If one needs Jesus to enter Heaven----how can those following other faiths then enter? No--they CANNOT. Jesus is the "way, the truth and the Life" and "No one comes to the Father but by Me" (John 14:6).

Is Jesus §God?

Then this is what is necessary to enter into heaven:
1. Believe in God.
2. Obey Him.

Jesus/God is the way, the truth and the life.
Without God/Jesus no one will enter into heaven.

If a person has never heard of Jesus...
how can he be judged as if he had?
If a person has limited knowledge,
he will be judged on that knowledge.


Romans 2:14-16
14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

God is a just God and will judge everyone correctly.

 

[GodsGrace]

No---once again, no contradiction at all. "No one comes to the Father but through Me" (John 14:6). And it is the Father who GIVES this ability to receive Jesus so that WE DO COME to the Father (John 6:37). And those given this ability to come to Jesus "HE WILL IN NO WISE CAST OUT". But the ONLY PERSON one can go through is Jesus Christ. If you are following another religion you are listening to "another voice"-and Jesus' sheep do not heed the voice of strangers. They only heed His voice. He is the only one who can save us!!

There is a definite contradiction unless we understand both verses.
In one it is God that brings a person to Jesus.
And in the other it is Jesus that brings a person to God.

There is only one God.
We either are worshipping God or we are not.

Paul states that we can know God simply by His creation.
We can know God by His power...for this reason, at the judgment, no one will have an excuse.
No one will be able to state that he didn't know about God.
Because God has revealed Himself to all mankind.
Roman 1:19-22

Paul teaches that even the Gentiles who do not even know about the law,,,,
do instinctively the things of the law...they are a law unto themselves. How?
Because they show that the law is written on their hearts.
Their conscience is their witness...and, because of this, they too will have no excuse before the judge.
Romans 2:14-16

Jesus taught that those in the OT had limited knowledge.
And yet, there were saved persons in the OT too.
He said that many prophets would have wanted to see and hear what His disciples saw,,,but they had limited knowledge.
Matthew 13:16-17

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

I'll ask you what I asked the other member....

Is there a conflict here?

John 14:6
6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.
John 6:37
37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly * not cast out.
Does Jesus lead us to God
or
Does God give us to Jesus?

Also, you'd have to explain ...

Romans 1:19-22
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.


WHY will no one have an excuse?

As Paul explains in the context, GodsGrace, God has revealed his creative power and divine majesty in his creation for all people to experience, but humanity has rejected or ignored him and replaced him with their idols. Therefore, they have no excuse for their rebellion before God, the just Creator-Judge. Thus, we're all worthy of his guilty verdict (Romans 1:18-3:21) until we trust in Jesus as our Substitute, who carried our guilty verdict to the cross to make us not guilty (justification).

 

[GodsGrace]

You're putting words into my mouth...

I posted EXACTLY what you stated.

Yes we are to live as Jesus lived. However we fail and we fail more wretchedly than we think. Our salvation rests on the work God has done. Not the works we do.. that's the Gospel.

No.

Our salvation rests on whether or not we obey God.

John 3:36
36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

Thinking that how godly we live our lives affects our salvation shows two things.

1. It shows a complete lack of understanding of why we need a savior.

Why do YOU think we need a Savior?
So that we could continue living in sin?

Matthew 7:21
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
Those who do NOT do the will of the Father will not enter.
Jesus said this.

2. It shows a lack of understanding of what sin is.

Here is what sin is:

1 John 3:4-10
4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.
5 You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.
6 No * one who abides in Him sins; no * one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.
7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;
8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning.
The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.
9 No * one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and
he cannot * sin, because he is born of God.
10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

Do you put your trust in Christ?
Or do you put your faith in your good works and obedience? You cannot do both!
One choice leads to salvation then other to Hell.

Obeying Christ leads to hell???!!

Good works lead to hell???!!

Could we have some scripture on this?

Jesus said we are TO DO what He taught....

Matthew 7:24
24 "Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.
The foolish man who did NOT do as Jesus taught built his house on sand and it got washed away.

Matthew 7:26
26 "Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.

Why do i put no faith at all in anything that I do?
" because my heart is desperately wicked"

That's strange.
I believe I'm a child of God.

1 John 3:1
1 See how great a love the Father has bestowed on us, that we would be called children of God; and such we are. For this reason the world does not know us, because it did not know Him.
It would be a good idea to rid yourself of that wicked heart:
Romans 12:1-2
1 Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.
2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.

Because. "I find another law at work in my life waging war against the Spirit, for the good i want to do i do not do but the evil i do not want to do i keep doing. Oh what a wretched man I am, who will save me from this body of death?"

Paul is speaking of his former self.
He's the same person that said:

Romans 6:16
16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

1. Paul teaches that we are PRESENT OURSELVES. Something that we DO.
2. As a slave for OBEDIENCE.
3. We will be the slave of the one we OBEY.
4. Obedience will result in righteousness.

Sin is an ancient archery term, it means anything but a perfect bullseye.

My best attempts i barely hit the target at all. If I have to rely on a bullseye every time? Or even once in a while? I'm toast.

Keep trying onlysaved.
God knows when you're doing your best.

The gospel is God did for me that which i could not do for myself. If I could do it on my own then Christ died for nothing.

Again,,,Jesus would have had to die anyway.
There are different atonement theories.
Each one required death.

The gospel is the good news.
It introduces Jesus and salvation.
It teaches that we are to believe Jesus.

What does BELIEVE mean??

 

[GodsGrace]

My opinion? To establish the new covenant.

Hmmm.
I don't believe that's one of the atonement theories.

The New Covenant is a PROMISE of God.
It's not why Jesus had to die.....
although that DID usher in the NC.

 

[GodsGrace]

GodsGrace: This is what you are failing to see:

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Not of works, lest any man should boast.

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus UNTO good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them". (Ephesians 2: 8-10)

Keeping the LAW or doing good works DO NOT SAVE US. We are saved BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH---and that is a GIFT FROM GOD---not SOMETHING WE WORK FOR. Note that the above verses teach that but then go on to say:

We "are "created" (born-again) in Christ Jesus UNTO good works". (Eph. 2:10) When we are born-again the Spirit of God enters our hearts and lives---he CHANGES us so that we repent from what we did before. Our new desires are to walk in the Spirit, not the flesh. So good works didn't save us---God's grace did! But we are saved UNTO good works--we are changed to begin to do the works "which God has before ordained that should walk in them".

Religious men have it BACKWARDS----be good and you will be saved. When the Bible actually teaches the reverse: be saved and you will do good.

Actually, Paul, Peter, James and even Jesus.....
said that our good works save us.

Keeping the law of Jesus keeps us saved because it means we're OBEYING Jesus.

Can a person NOT obey Jesus and still go to heaven?

WHY is it necessary to debate whether or not obedience is necessary to a Christian person?

Was Jesus not clear?

Matthew 5:3-9
3 "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 "Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.
5 "Blessed are the gentle, for they shall inherit the earth.
6 "Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.
7 "Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.
8 "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.
9 "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.
Matthew 5:20
20 "For I say to you that unless * your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 5:41-44
41 "Whoever forces you to go one mile, go with him two.
42 "Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you.
43 "You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.'
44 "But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,


Do the above teach something YOU must DO?

BTW,,,,all Christians know that we are saved by faith.
I'm discussing OBEDIENCE.

 

[GodsGrace]

LOL! No conflict actually. Hebrew (biblical) logic is different than Aristotelian logic and can easily accommodate both statements.

of course there's no conflict...if we understand the scripture.

Because when they see HIM, (final judgement) they will know that they rebelled against HIM. No excuse.

True.

 

[GodsGrace]

Not at all.

So you agree with me that one could not have heard about Jesus and still be saved?

This is very close, too close, to Universalism. Be careful. The atonement is only applied to those who believe.

I do not believe in limited atonement....
The atonement of Jesus is unlimited....it's for everyone that ever lived.


Why would that be universalism?
Not everyone is saved.

For those that desire to be saved....
it's the atonement, propitiation, of Jesus that bought them that salvation.

God made provision for Adam's sin in Genesis 3.15.
Jesus is that provision, but God is outside of time so the sacrifice of Jesus was always the reason anyone was saved.

Mankind was sold to satan by Adam's sin.
The sacrifice bought him back and gave him the opportunity to become saved.

1 John 2:2
2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

Titus 2:11
11For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

Hebrews 2:9
9But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.


Of course, it's all contingent on the following condition:

John 3:16
16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

What do you mean by "Jesus brought back everyone"?

Explained above.
This would be the Ransome Theory of Atonement.

Yes, by faith, but faith in what?

God.
Just like the saints of the OT.

Those are saved and will be saved, are saved and will be saved by grace, through faith, in Christ (and his work). There is no other way.

See my post no. 206

No, that is the false gospel Paul so strongly warns about in Gal. 1:6-10. Obedience to God is the result of being justified and leads to our sanctification and eventual glorification.

Obeying God is a false gospel?

Of course we must believe first.
Are non-believers required to obey God?
No.

But believers are required to obey God.

Why this has to be debated is not understood by me.
God has ALWAYS demanded obedience.
Jesus did nothing but teach good works.

I could post tens of verses...
they shouldn't be necessary for a believer.

Yes. The point is that such knowledge should push people to seek him, but instead people ignored that and "did not honor him as God or give thanks to him" (1:21). What it doesn't say is that people can be saved from such knowledge about God.

Well, actually Free, it DOES say that these people can be saved.
This is the reason why no one will be able to have an excuse.
Because God revealed Himself, in one way or another to EVERYONE.

By revelation
Romans 1:19.....

By conscience
Romans 2:14....

By knowledge available
Matthew 13:16....

 

[GodsGrace]

As Paul explains in the context, GodsGrace, God has revealed his creative power and divine majesty in his creation for all people to experience, but humanity has rejected or ignored him and replaced him with their idols. Therefore, they have no excuse for their rebellion before God, the just Creator-Judge. Thus, we're all worthy of his guilty verdict (Romans 1:18-3:21) until we trust in Jesus as our Substitute, who carried our guilty verdict to the cross to make us not guilty (justification).

The above is not what Paul is teaching.
We tend to bring our own ideas to scripture.

Romans 1:18-20
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
God is mad at those that suppress His truth.

19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
Why?
Because God's existence is evident to them...
Because God revealed Himself to them.

20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen,
From the beginning God revealed Himself through power, through what we see around us, the heaves, the earth, He must surely be a powerful God.

being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
Since God has revealed Himself TO ALL MEN....
they will be without excuse when they come before Him.

Those that replaced GOD with idols will be judged accordingly.
If God the creator not the creator of all the earth and mankind?
Has every man except those that know about Jesus, worshipped idols?
Every man is born lost.
Those that find God the Creator will be judged by a just God.

Please see my post 206.

Deuteronomy 32:3-4
3 "For I proclaim the name of the LORD; Ascribe greatness to our God!
4 "The Rock! His work is perfect, For all His ways are just; A God of faithfulness and without injustice, Righteous and upright is He.

A just God will give to each man what he deserves.

 

[onlysaved]

I posted EXACTLY what you stated.


No.

Our salvation rests on whether or not we obey God.

John 3:36
36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

Why do YOU think we need a Savior?
So that we could continue living in sin?

Matthew 7:21
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
Those who do NOT do the will of the Father will not enter.
Jesus said this.

Here is what sin is:

1 John 3:4-10
4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.
5 You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.
6 No * one who abides in Him sins; no * one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.
7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;
8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning.
The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.
9 No * one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and
he cannot * sin, because he is born of God.
10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.


Obeying Christ leads to hell???!!

Good works lead to hell???!!

Could we have some scripture on this?

Jesus said we are TO DO what He taught....

Matthew 7:24
24 "Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.
The foolish man who did NOT do as Jesus taught built his house on sand and it got washed away.

Matthew 7:26
26 "Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.

That's strange.
I believe I'm a child of God.

1 John 3:1
1 See how great a love the Father has bestowed on us, that we would be called children of God; and such we are. For this reason the world does not know us, because it did not know Him.
It would be a good idea to rid yourself of that wicked heart:
Romans 12:1-2
1 Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.
2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.

Paul is speaking of his former self.
He's the same person that said:

Romans 6:16
16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

1. Paul teaches that we are PRESENT OURSELVES. Something that we DO.
2. As a slave for OBEDIENCE.
3. We will be the slave of the one we OBEY.
4. Obedience will result in righteousness.


Keep trying onlysaved.
God knows when you're doing your best.


Again,,,Jesus would have had to die anyway.
There are different atonement theories.
Each one required death.

The gospel is the good news.
It introduces Jesus and salvation.
It teaches that we are to believe Jesus.

What does BELIEVE mean??

1. I am not advocating or excusing disobedience to Christ.
I am only acknowledging the fact that even as believers we have moments of disobedience and sin.. therefore our salvation rests in the work of God and not in the works of man's. If it rested on the works of man's no one would be saved.
Our works show who we are. They do not save us.
If you trust in the works that you do for salvation you're not trusting Christ.

"If a man says he is without sin he is a liar and the truth is not in him"

Or we can take Paul's word for it.

"For the good i want to do I do not do but the evil I don't want to do, this is keep on doing"

Was Paul disobedient and sinful at the time he wrote the book of Romans? Yep! At least he said he was.

We are saved inspite of our sin not because we through force of will got rid of all our sin.

Every time Jesus ran into people, usually Pharisees, who thought they were sinless and better than others Jesus would show them their sin..

Take the story of the good Samaritan and think about a few details.
1. This story was told to the holier than thou Pharisees.
2. The Samaritans were hated and thought unclean inbreeding by the Pharisees.
3. The Samaritan gave up two months of wages for the man beaten by robbers.
4. This was one example of "who is your neighbor "
To keep the law according to Jesus you have to do this for everyone who is your neighbor.
So I ask, how obedient are you to Jesus's example?

Need to repent like I do?

Yes, salvation is God's work not ours. Or do you think more highly of yourself than you ought?

I absolutely cannot live a sinless obedient life. I am physically, mentally and spiritually incapable of doing it. I have no capacity towards it whatsoever. My only hope is Christ and His mercy.

I could post many verses but if you knew the Bible you'd already know them.

 

[Fish153]

Actually, Paul, Peter, James and even Jesus.....
said that our good works save us.

Keeping the law of Jesus keeps us saved because it means we're OBEYING Jesus.

Can a person NOT obey Jesus and still go to heaven?

WHY is it necessary to debate whether or not obedience is necessary to a Christian person?

Was Jesus not clear?

Matthew 5:3-9
3 "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 "Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.
5 "Blessed are the gentle, for they shall inherit the earth.
6 "Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.
7 "Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.
8 "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.
9 "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.
Matthew 5:20
20 "For I say to you that unless * your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 5:41-44
41 "Whoever forces you to go one mile, go with him two.
42 "Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you.
43 "You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.'
44 "But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,


Do the above teach something YOU must DO?

BTW,,,,all Christians know that we are saved by faith.
I'm discussing OBEDIENCE.

"By Grace are you saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the Gift of God, NOT OF WORKS LEST ANY MANY SHOULD BOAST" (Eph. 2:8,9). if one could be saved by being good they could then BOAST that they made it to Heaven by being good. Don't you see that? Salvation is a GIFT of God, not by works WE DO. Rev. 22 says that any man may come FREELY to the water of life---it is a GIFT. You are NOT SAVED by being a good person. The thief on the cross had no time to be good. In fact, it says he RAILED on Jesus until He really looked at Him and considered him. Then he finally asked "Remember me Lord when you are come into your Kingdom". Jesus said "Today you will be with me in Paradise". The thief's salvation was not based on his good works or obedience---it was based on his putting his faith in Jesus---just like those in Moses' time who looked at the bronze serpent and lived after they had been bitten. (see John 3:14, 15 where Jesus makes the comparison).

 

[GodsGrace]

1. I am not advocating or excusing disobedience to Christ.
I am only acknowledging the fact that even as believers we have moments of disobedience and sin.. therefore our salvation rests in the work of God and not in the works of man's. If it rested on the works of man's no one would be saved.
Our works show who we are. They do not save us.
If you trust in the works that you do for salvation you're not trusting Christ.

"If a man says he is without sin he is a liar and the truth is not in him"

Or we can take Paul's word for it.

"For the good i want to do I do not do but the evil I don't want to do, this is keep on doing"

Was Paul disobedient and sinful at the time he wrote the book of Romans? Yep! At least he said he was.

We are saved inspite of our sin not because we through force of will got rid of all our sin.

Every time Jesus ran into people, usually Pharisees, who thought they were sinless and better than others Jesus would show them their sin..

Take the story of the good Samaritan and think about a few details.
1. This story was told to the holier than thou Pharisees.
2. The Samaritans were hated and thought unclean inbreeding by the Pharisees.
3. The Samaritan gave up two months of wages for the man beaten by robbers.
4. This was one example of "who is your neighbor "
To keep the law according to Jesus you have to do this for everyone who is your neighbor.
So I ask, how obedient are you to Jesus's example?

Looks like you don't really grasp the story of the good samaritan.
Looks like those who believe as you do all say the same.

Lip sevice to good...
but then excuses are found.

One of the best ones.
"we can't be perfect".

Well, Jesus didn't say we should be perfect.
YOU are saying this.

You should look into the book of Romans.
Paul was SAVED and a BELIEVER when he wrote that letter.
AND he was obedient to God....going wherever God sent him on his journeys.
In chapter 7 he was speaking about his former self.
Read Romans 7:24
What was Paul asking himself?

Read Romans 8:2
Has Paul been set free from sin?

And, BTW, Paul is speaking about THE LAW...
NOT the Law of Christ....Christ's teachings.

Need to repent like I do?

Yes, salvation is God's work not ours. Or do you think more highly of yourself than you ought?

Salvation is YOUR work.
But you refuse to understand the verses I post...
they don't mean anything to you because you've let yourself be deceived.

2 Timothy 3:13-17
13 But evil men and impostors will proceed from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.
14 You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them,
15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;
17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.


I've never read anything in the NT that teaches that we are to have FAITH ONLY....
but many many teachings about doing good works for God.

I absolutely cannot live a sinless obedient life. I am physically, mentally and spiritually incapable of doing it. I have no capacity towards it whatsoever. My only hope is Christ and His mercy.

Who said sinless?
Strawman.
Always a strawman.
Anything not to obey the NT teachings.

I could post many verses but if you knew the Bible you'd already know them.

Ditto, I'd say.
And why the ad hominems?
Must you resort to ad hominems??

 

[GodsGrace]

"By Grace are you saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the Gift of God, NOT OF WORKS LEST ANY MANY SHOULD BOAST" (Eph. 2:8,9). if one could be saved by being good they could then BOAST that they made it to Heaven by being good. Don't you see that? Salvation is a GIFT of God, not by works WE DO. Rev. 22 says that any man may come FREELY to the water of life---it is a GIFT. You are NOT SAVED by being a good person. The thief on the cross had no time to be good. In fact, it says he RAILED on Jesus until He really looked at Him and considered him. Then he finally asked "Remember me Lord when you are come into your Kingdom". Jesus said "Today you will be with me in Paradise". The thief's salvation was not based on his good works or obedience---

YOU are not hanging on a cross Fish.

it was based on his putting his faith in Jesus---just like those in Moses' time who looked at the bronze serpent and lived after they had been bitten. (see John 3:14, 15 where Jesus makes the comparison).

So all those verses I posted of what JESUS taught are irrelevant to you?

You said.
"you are not saved by being a good person".

God will be happy to hear this.
It's not what HE wants...but I suppose it suits YOU.

BTW,,,you have NOT replied to my posts.

What you're doing is called verse ping pong....
You don't like what I plainly post, coming from Paul or Jesus...
so you retort with verses of your own.

You mentioned Revelation...

Do you accept this verse, or is it among those you do not accept?

Revelation 21:27
27 and nothing unclean, and no * one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever * come into it, but only * those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.
And names can be deleted from the Lamb's book of life:
Revelation 3.5
5 'He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

Those who overcome will not be erased from the Book of Life.
Those who overcome...

 

[onlysaved]

Looks like you don't really grasp the story of the good samaritan.
Looks like those who believe as you do all say the same.

Lip sevice to good...
but then excuses are found.

One of the best ones.
"we can't be perfect".

Well, Jesus didn't say we should be perfect.
YOU are saying this.

You should look into the book of Romans.
Paul was SAVED and a BELIEVER when he wrote that letter.
AND he was obedient to God....going wherever God sent him on his journeys.
In chapter 7 he was speaking about his former self.
Read Romans 7:24
What was Paul asking himself?

Read Romans 8:2
Has Paul been set free from sin?

And, BTW, Paul is speaking about THE LAW...
NOT the Law of Christ....Christ's teachings.



Salvation is YOUR work.
But you refuse to understand the verses I post...
they don't mean anything to you because you've let yourself be deceived.

2 Timothy 3:13-17
13 But evil men and impostors will proceed from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.
14 You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them,
15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;
17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.


I've never read anything in the NT that teaches that we are to have FAITH ONLY....
but many many teachings about doing good works for God.

Who said sinless?
Strawman.
Always a strawman.
Anything not to obey the NT teachings.


Ditto, I'd say.
And why the ad hominems?
Must you resort to ad hominems??

No one is saying no works!!!!!!!!!!!!

You're just not listening.

"It is by grace you are saved through faith, and this NOT OF YOYRSRLVES it is the Gift of God, not the result of works that no man may boast"

The good Samaritan is not about how you should be kind to people...

It's about how the best of us don't even obey.. how do we know that? The entire context is a put down of the Pharisees... he's telling thoes that trust in their obedience to God's law that a dirty filthy Samaritan is better than they are. Read it in it's context.

 

[Blain DeCastro]

I'll ask you what I asked the other member....

Is there a conflict here?

John 14:6
6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.
John 6:37
37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly * not cast out.
Does Jesus lead us to God
or
Does God give us to Jesus?

Also, you'd have to explain ...

Romans 1:19-22
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.


WHY will no one have an excuse?

I think that Jesus leads us to God as the natural man cannot find God without Jesus

 

[for_his_glory]

From the very beginning it has always been about having faith in God and being obedient to His commands. It was never about keeping all of the 613 Levitical laws as many of those laws were added to by man, not God, but yet we are to follow the moral laws within all of them.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Under the new and better covenant of God's grace through Christ Jesus we come to have faith in Christ who gave His life so we can have eternal life with Him to all who will believe.

No one can ever be to lost to be found.