Sinless To Be Saved

[onlysaved]

OK
Some say works are not needed.
So what if I DON'T feed the hungry man?

Does that mean I was never saved to begin with?
Hmm. Easy answer.

Or does it mean I didn't choose to feed him,,,as Jesus instructed.


Our sinful nature comes out....
but sin must be willful.



No razors edge.
THIS is the problem.

So what do you make of Romans 12.1-2?




I agree.
So maybe we could begin to post this way so new Christians understand better and there's no grey area?

Agreed.

And here is where we part.
Good works do save us because Jesus, being God, demanded good works in His teaching.
If we obey God we will be saved.
If we disobey God we will not be saved.
We do good works to REMAIN saved, after initial salvation...
this is called sanctification which is ongoing.

That is where we absolutely disagree. Once you're saved you're saved
"He who began a good work in you will be faithful to complete it"
Once the work is started God promised He will finish it " that is sanctification.

 

[onlysaved]

is Jesus two persons?

one divine:

one human:

or one divine person who became man?

No, Jesus is God. He became man. He died and God raised Him from the dead. One person, God and man

 

[GodsGrace]

That is where we absolutely disagree. Once you're saved you're saved
"He who began a good work in you will be faithful to complete it"
Once the work is started God promised He will finish it " that is sanctification.

Just as I thought.

You post words that sound right...
but when it comes right down to it you preach that salvation cannot be lost.
And this is NOT what Jesus taught, or Paul.

I believe you're reformed/calvinist in theology.
If so, do you know the difference between OSAS and Perseverance of the Saints?
(because sometimes I wonder if we're speaking the same language.
Sometimes I wish there existed a Christian Dictionary - and I don't mean one like Smith's Dictionary).

 

[GodsGrace]

No, Jesus is God. He became man. He died and God raised Him from the dead. One person, God and man

Correct.
Jesus is ONE PERSON
with
TWO NATURES.

So did Mary birth a person or a nature??

 

[onlysaved]

Correct.
Jesus is ONE PERSON
with
TWO NATURES.

So did Mary birth a person or a nature??

Just as I thought.

You post words that sound right...
but when it comes right down to it you preach that salvation cannot be lost.
And this is NOT what Jesus taught, or Paul.

I believe you're reformed/calvinist in theology.
If so, do you know the difference between OSAS and Perseverance of the Saints?
(because sometimes I wonder if we're speaking the same language.
Sometimes I wish there existed a Christian Dictionary - and I don't mean one like Smith's Dictionary).

The Greek verb for believe is a form which demands ongoing belief.
If you stop believing then you never believed to begin with.

Say a person goes to a Billy Graham event and "gets saved "by believing and confessing christ. One of two things is true. ( maybe 3)

1. They will believe and follow Christ for the rest of their life.

2. They believe but they fall away. It means they never really believed
3. And I am not sure this happens
They believe, fall away and come back and live in faith the rest of their lives.

Otherwise God's promise to complete what He started would be a lie.

 

[Fish153]

Onlysaved----
John 6 basically confirms what you are saying above (though it never states that any that turned away came back to Jesus):

"At this point many of his disciples turned away and deserted him. Then Jesus turned to the Twelve and asked, “Are you also going to leave?” Simon Peter replied, “Lord, to whom would we go? You have the words that give eternal life. We believe, and we know you are the Holy One of God.” (John 6: 66-6:69)

"WE BELIEVE AND WE KNOW YOU ARE THE HOLY ONE OF GOD." are very important words. The others were ABLE to turn away because they never truly believed.

 

[Fish153]

Fish...
Have you been advised that The Law was abolished 2 thousand years ago?

And you really should stop stating that our works are filthy rags to God when all Jesus taught was to do good works.

Paul was a sinner.
§But NOW Paul was a believer in Jesus and HE taught that we are to behave as Christians and obey God.

ALL the NT writers teach us that we are to pursue righteousness...


Maybe Paul disagreed with John and Jesus?

1 John 3:7-10
7Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;
8the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.
9No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.
Peter:
1 Peter 2:24
24He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.


Jesus:
Matthew 5:20
20For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
Paul teaches that we are to pursue righteousness:


2 Timothy 2:2
2So flee youthful passions and pursue righteousness, faith, love, and peace, along with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart.
We are to PURSUE righteousness.
It's something we must DO.

Godsgrace--- You said:

"And you really should stop stating that our works are filthy rags to God when all Jesus taught was to do good works."

This shows that (1) You do not understand the Gospel or what Jesus did on the cross. (2) You have not listened to a word anyone has said in their posts to you.

OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS is as "filty rags" before God. OUR righteousness amounts to nothing. That was the WHOLE POINT Paul was making in Philippians. He was saying that as a Pharisee he followed the Law and was "blameless". He states this was a "fleshly" righteousness obtained through trying to follow the LAW. But Isaiah 64 clearly teaches us that WHEN GOD LOOKS UPON US HE SEES OUR RIGHTEOUSNESSES AS "FILTHY RAGS". Our righteousness cannot possibly meet His standards!!

We need a DIFFERENT RIGHTEOUSNESS:

"But now the righteousness OF God WITHOUT THE LAW is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Even THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

FOR ALL HAVE SINNED AND FALL SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD;

BEING JUSTIFIED FREELY BY HIS GRACE through the REDEMPTION that is in Christ Jesus:

Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

To declare, I say, at this time HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS: that HE might be just, and the JUSTIFIER of him which believeth in Jesus."
Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law." (Romans 3:21-28)

Jesus isn't asking us to do "good works" in OUR OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS. He is asking us to do good works THROUGH THE SPIRIT OF GOD. Ephesians 2:10 teaches we are saved UNTO good works---not BY our works!!!!

 

[GodsGrace]

Godsgrace--- You said:

"And you really should stop stating that our works are filthy rags to God when all Jesus taught was to do good works."

This shows that (1) You do not understand the Gospel or what Jesus did on the cross. (2) You have not listened to a word anyone has said in their posts to you.

Fish,,,
Let me clarify...
I don't LISTEN to what persons on this forum state that are incorrect.

I like to listen to Jesus and what HE taught.
I like to listen to Paul and what HE taught.

Not persons that HEAR what some verses say, but not others and so do not take all of God's word into account.

OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS is as "filty rags" before God. OUR righteousness amounts to nothing. That was the WHOLE POINT Paul was making in Philippians. He was saying that as a Pharisee he followed the Law and was "blameless". He states this was a "fleshly" righteousness obtained through trying to follow the LAW. But Isaiah 64 clearly teaches us that WHEN GOD LOOKS UPON US HE SEES OUR RIGHTEOUSNESSES AS "FILTHY RAGS". Our righteousness cannot possibly meet His standards!!

Paul NEVER said our works are filthy rags.
Paul TAUGHT good works or we would lose salvation.

We need a DIFFERENT RIGHTEOUSNESS:

"But now the righteousness OF God WITHOUT THE LAW is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Even THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

FOR ALL HAVE SINNED AND FALL SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD;

BEING JUSTIFIED FREELY BY HIS GRACE through the REDEMPTION that is in Christ Jesus:

Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

To declare, I say, at this time HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS: that HE might be just, and the JUSTIFIER of him which believeth in Jesus."
Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law." (Romans 3:21-28)

Jesus isn't asking us to do "good works" in OUR OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS. He is asking us to do good works THROUGH THE SPIRIT OF GOD. Ephesians 2:10 teaches we are saved UNTO good works---not BY our works!!!!

You should reread the entire New Testament.

And with that....
I bid you farewell.

§BTW....THE WORKS OF THE LAW
is different from GOOD WORKS.

 

[GodsGrace]

Onlysaved----
John 6 basically confirms what you are saying above (though it never states that any that turned away came back to Jesus):

"At this point many of his disciples turned away and deserted him. Then Jesus turned to the Twelve and asked, “Are you also going to leave?” Simon Peter replied, “Lord, to whom would we go? You have the words that give eternal life. We believe, and we know you are the Holy One of God.” (John 6: 66-6:69)

"WE BELIEVE AND WE KNOW YOU ARE THE HOLY ONE OF GOD." are very important words. The others were ABLE to turn away because they never truly believed.

What is a disciple??

Did some turn away??

 

[GodsGrace]

The Greek verb for believe is a form which demands ongoing belief.
If you stop believing then you never believed to begin with.

Yes. I love it.

Jesus said He will give life to the one who BELIEVES.
The one
who
BELIEVES.

Sounds like it's possible to stop believing.

And you're not doing so good with your Greek.

Let's see.

We do not lose free will at salvation.
We can still decide to do good or to do evil...
we still decide how to behave.

Faith does not CAUSE good works...
it's a choice we make.

This would go to the flesh against the spirit in Romans.

So the point is, yes, SAVED CHRISTIANS still can choose to do evil.

Thus rejecting the notion of "they were never saved to begin with".

Say a person goes to a Billy Graham event and "gets saved "by believing and confessing christ. One of two things is true. ( maybe 3)

1. They will believe and follow Christ for the rest of their life.

2. They believe but they fall away. It means they never really believed
3. And I am not sure this happens
They believe, fall away and come back and live in faith the rest of their lives.

Otherwise God's promise to complete what He started would be a lie.

 

[donadams]

No, Jesus is God. He became man. He died and God raised Him from the dead. One person, God and man

then as Mary is His mother and He is God Mary is the mother of God!

theotokos God bearer!

thks

 

[donadams]

Good works prove our faith is genuine. That's as close to saying they are necessary for salvation no work we could ever do is enough to overcome our sin.

As soon as you say to yourself " know I'm saved because I fed a poor man yesterday " you are in error. Our faith is to be in Christ's work not ours. I'm sure you agree.

I do not think God makes much if any distinction between what we do and the thoughts that we entertain such as lustful thoughts. Even when we entertain them for a moment before taking them captive. Our sinful nature comes out.

Regardless how any of my words have been taken by others. Sin is not OK. It’s paid for but it is not OK.
I will say there is a razors edge on both these issues.

Saved people will sin and their sin does not unsave them. Believing that we can live in sin is apostate and Idolatry. It's my personal view that some people struggle with certain sins and occasionally fail. I do not believe that is living in sin. Living in sin is sinning and not caring about it. That's brazen unbelieving behavior.


Saved people WILL do good works but those works do not save them and trusting in those works for salvation is apostate Idolatry

we are not saved!

only in the process of salvation and sin does cos the loss of heaven gal 5 & eph 5

thks

 

[onlysaved]

we are not saved!

only in the process of salvation and sin does cos the loss of heaven gal 5 & eph 5

thks

Then everyone is going to hell and Christ died for nothing.

 

[Free]

It's becoming difficult to discuss this because you keep mentioning the CC and I'm not Catholic so I don't know why we need to discuss Catholicism.

I know you're not. You stated that you knew what Catholics believe and what Protestants believe. My point is that you don't know what Protestants believe about faith alone because you're using the exact same arguments that our Catholic poster uses. I have stated this already.

You ask WHAT STATISTICS?
I posed a paragraph or two and posted a link to a Pew Research finding that 53% of Protestants believe that faith AND good works are necessary to be saved.

Right. You posted: "Ahead of the 500th anniversary of the Protestant Reformation, a majority of U.S. Protestants, 52 percent, believe that both good deeds and faith are necessary for salvation, a new Pew Research Center poll reports. Meanwhile, 52 percent of the U.S. Protestants polled hold that Christians need the guidance of church teaching and tradition in conjunction with the Bible."

I replied: "A majority of those who claim to be Christian in the U.S. do not hold a Christian worldview or to biblical beliefs. Hence why the U.S. is full of cultural Christians, or, to use their own pejorative term, CINOs."

You replied to that: "You don't like the statistics, so you reject it."

But that is untrue. My reply had absolutely nothing to do with either liking or disliking the stats. The problem is, if you're going to post stats, you had better do a much more thorough job and look at multiple sources. As it is, you have essentially taken them out of context by ignoring the abundance of other stats out there regarding American Protestants. Such as these:

"Slightly over half of Christian respondents said they believe someone can attain salvation by "being or doing good," a figure that includes, 46% of Pentecostals, 44% of mainline Protestants, 41% of evangelicals, and 70% of Catholics.

In addition to the viewpoint that eternal salvation can be earned, survey results show that 58% of Americans believe that no absolute moral truth exists and that the basis of truth are factors or sources other than God. Seventy-seven percent said that right and wrong is determined by factors other than the Bible. Fifty-nine percent said that the Bible is not God's authoritative and true Word and 69% said people are basically good."

https://www.christianpost.com/news/...uths-of-christian-worldview-survey-finds.html

Do you realize how much error is believed by so-called Christians in the U.S.?

'The data found, among other things, that while 51% of American adults said they have a “biblical worldview, only 6% of American adults actually hold this worldview."

For example, of the 51%, 49% said that reincarnation was a possibility after they die. Meanwhile, only 33% said they believed that “human beings are born with a sinful nature and can only be saved from the consequences of sin by Jesus Christ.”'

"The data comes as similar results have been found by other surveys in recent years. Last September, the Cultural Research Center revealed survey data compiled in January 2020 that showed that 2% of millenials hold a biblical worldview even though 61% identify as Christian.

In 2017, a survey from the American Culture and Faith Institute found that about 10% of Americans hold a distinctly biblical worldview even though 46% claimed to lead a Christian life."

https://www.christianpost.com/news/...y.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook


"At least a third of senior pastors in the United States believe one can earn a place in Heaven by simply being a good person, according to a nationwide survey."

'Another 39% of Evangelical pastors surveyed said there is no absolute moral truth and that “each individual must determine their own truth.” Roughly the same percentage (38%) didn't answer in the affirmative when asked if "human life is sacred," while 37% said having faith, in general, is more important than in what — or more specifically, Whom — one has faith.

Perhaps most startlingly, three in 10 Evangelical pastors (30%) didn't answer in the affirmative if their salvation is based on having confessed their sins and accepting Jesus Christ as their savior.'

https://www.christianpost.com/news/...people-can-get-heaven-just-by-being-good.html

That should suffice to show that there are significant issues with holding to biblical beliefs amongst so-called Christians, whether Protestant or otherwise. It shows that not nearly as many are actually Christian as claim to be.

You say that Faith Alone means justification by faith alone....correct.
Now let's see why this phrase is taken out of its original meaning.

You state that FAITH ALONE means that we are JUSTIFIED by faith alone.
NOT everyone understands this definition....
Those that believe in OSAS....and make some of the statements I absolutely reject...
understand faith alone to mean that NOTHING else is necessary to be saved except faith.

You disagree with understanding "faith alone to mean that NOTHING else is necessary to be saved except faith." But, that is the very same thing as saying "You say that Faith Alone means justification by faith alone," which you said is "correct."

This is why we read statements like:
We can blaspheme God and still be saved.
We can decide whether or not to obey God.

This needs a lot more qualification and explanation. Is sin disobedience? If it is, then doesn't that mean we "decide whether or not to obey God," by not actually obeying him? Does one sin mean a person is no longer saved? Are we saved one minute and then not saved the next, the moment we sin?

obedience to God is not necessary....etc.

As I stated already, I have not seen anyone here say such a thing about a person after they are saved. It is only in relation to salvation, particularly justification, that good works don't do anything.

James:
Jesus, Paul, Peter, James....
they all are teaching what Jesus taught.
As I've said,,,if NOT...then we could throw out the entire NT since we will not be able to know the truth due to the fact that even THEY cannot agree.
Instead they do.

Of course they do, but you're making them contradict. None of them is saying that our works keep us save; that is no different than saying our works saved (justified) us in the first place.

James means what he states plainly:
FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD,,,,USELESS.

James is using the word JUSTIFICATION in conjunction with SANCTIFICATION.
(sorry for caps...I use them for emphasis).

The irony of you saying that "faith alone" doesn't appear anywhere in the NT except in a negative sense in James 2, and that "I don't see the word EVIDENCE in the statement that James makes," yet now say that "James is using the word JUSTIFICATION in conjunction with SANCTIFICATION."

Where is sanctification in James? James only uses justification, which has different meanings, none of which is sanctification. Sticking only to what James says, he is clearly saying that good works are evidence of a true faith, that faith that doesn't have works is evidence of a "dead" faith, that is, no actual faith at all.

but sanctification requires that we obey God and do good works.

Of course. Nothing I have said goes against that.

Then we hear because we WANT to...
fine...but there should not be a condition set on doing good works...
whether or not we WANT to, we still are required to do them IF we want sanctification.

If we do not go on to sanctification...
justification is also lost.

Polycarp,,,who was taught by John, made the following statement:
1. We are saved by faith alone.
2. IF we continue to obey God (and he explains how).

This is what I believe the NT teaches, and I've tried my best to explain this.

We are saved by faith alone....
justified (declared righteous) by faith alone.

But then we must go on to your number 3 in Thayer's definition of justification.....become sanctified.

IF we don't go on to becoming more and more like Jesus...are we still saved?
If we don't obey God, are we still saved?
No. God demands obedience and this is what we must do.

James said FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD.
Faith brings to justification...
justification without works is dead.

If we aren't being sanctified, or if there is no desire to do good works, then we were never justified in the first place.

Php 1:6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. (ESV)

And, as Jesus said, which we both have quoted, that if we love him we will obey his commands. If we do not obey or do not have any desire to obey, then we don't love him, which means we aren't justified.

 

[Free]

we are not saved!

only in the process of salvation and sin does cos the loss of heaven gal 5 & eph 5

I've pointed this out to you before--salvation is spoken of as a past, one-time event (justification), an ongoing process (sanctification), and a final state (glorification). But, it all starts with justification, which is done; a justified person is a saved person, who will become more holy, and will become glorified.

Act 2:46 And day by day, attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes, they received their food with glad and generous hearts,
Act 2:47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved.

Rom 8:24 For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees?

Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
...
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

2Ti 1:9 who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,

Tit 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

 

[GodsGrace]

I know you're not. You stated that you knew what Catholics believe and what Protestants believe. My point is that you don't know what Protestants believe about faith alone because you're using the exact same arguments that our Catholic poster uses. I have stated this already.


Right. You posted: "Ahead of the 500th anniversary of the Protestant Reformation, a majority of U.S. Protestants, 52 percent, believe that both good deeds and faith are necessary for salvation, a new Pew Research Center poll reports. Meanwhile, 52 percent of the U.S. Protestants polled hold that Christians need the guidance of church teaching and tradition in conjunction with the Bible."

I replied: "A majority of those who claim to be Christian in the U.S. do not hold a Christian worldview or to biblical beliefs. Hence why the U.S. is full of cultural Christians, or, to use their own pejorative term, CINOs."

You replied to that: "You don't like the statistics, so you reject it."

But that is untrue. My reply had absolutely nothing to do with either liking or disliking the stats. The problem is, if you're going to post stats, you had better do a much more thorough job and look at multiple sources. As it is, you have essentially taken them out of context by ignoring the abundance of other stats out there regarding American Protestants. Such as these:

"Slightly over half of Christian respondents said they believe someone can attain salvation by "being or doing good," a figure that includes, 46% of Pentecostals, 44% of mainline Protestants, 41% of evangelicals, and 70% of Catholics.

In addition to the viewpoint that eternal salvation can be earned, survey results show that 58% of Americans believe that no absolute moral truth exists and that the basis of truth are factors or sources other than God. Seventy-seven percent said that right and wrong is determined by factors other than the Bible. Fifty-nine percent said that the Bible is not God's authoritative and true Word and 69% said people are basically good."

https://www.christianpost.com/news/...uths-of-christian-worldview-survey-finds.html

Do you realize how much error is believed by so-called Christians in the U.S.?

'The data found, among other things, that while 51% of American adults said they have a “biblical worldview, only 6% of American adults actually hold this worldview."

For example, of the 51%, 49% said that reincarnation was a possibility after they die. Meanwhile, only 33% said they believed that “human beings are born with a sinful nature and can only be saved from the consequences of sin by Jesus Christ.”'

"The data comes as similar results have been found by other surveys in recent years. Last September, the Cultural Research Center revealed survey data compiled in January 2020 that showed that 2% of millenials hold a biblical worldview even though 61% identify as Christian.

In 2017, a survey from the American Culture and Faith Institute found that about 10% of Americans hold a distinctly biblical worldview even though 46% claimed to lead a Christian life."

https://www.christianpost.com/news/...y.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook


"At least a third of senior pastors in the United States believe one can earn a place in Heaven by simply being a good person, according to a nationwide survey."

'Another 39% of Evangelical pastors surveyed said there is no absolute moral truth and that “each individual must determine their own truth.” Roughly the same percentage (38%) didn't answer in the affirmative when asked if "human life is sacred," while 37% said having faith, in general, is more important than in what — or more specifically, Whom — one has faith.

Perhaps most startlingly, three in 10 Evangelical pastors (30%) didn't answer in the affirmative if their salvation is based on having confessed their sins and accepting Jesus Christ as their savior.'

https://www.christianpost.com/news/...people-can-get-heaven-just-by-being-good.html

That should suffice to show that there are significant issues with holding to biblical beliefs amongst so-called Christians, whether Protestant or otherwise. It shows that not nearly as many are actually Christian as claim to be.

I'm not too interested in statistics.
I posted the link because you kept repeating that believing in obedience and good works are a Catholic teaching and the Pew Research found that Protestants also hold to the view that good works are necessary for salvation.

You disagree with understanding "faith alone to mean that NOTHING else is necessary to be saved except faith." But, that is the very same thing as saying "You say that Faith Alone means justification by faith alone," which you said is "correct."

Faith alone means we are justified by faith alone.
How is it understood by many today?
They understand it to mean that we need ONLY faith, with nothing added, in order to be saved.
If Jesus said to be baptized, Matthew 28:19, then it is no longer by faith alone....
I'm speaking of salvation NOT justification.

This needs a lot more qualification and explanation. Is sin disobedience? If it is, then doesn't that mean we "decide whether or not to obey God," by not actually obeying him? Does one sin mean a person is no longer saved? Are we saved one minute and then not saved the next, the moment we sin?

I never mention sin.
I'm speaking of obedience.
I'm told that obeying is too close to "works salvation".

My response is that if obeying God is works salvation...
then I believe in works salvation.

As I stated already, I have not seen anyone here say such a thing about a person after they are saved. It is only in relation to salvation, particularly justification, that good works don't do anything.

I've seen a lot of statements that reject what Jesus taught.
Someone said that we will not be judged on our behavior.

Paul and Jesus do not agree.
Romans 2:19....
John 5:28.....

Not posting anymore verses since I'm responding as a courtesy to you...
will be going off this thread.

Of course they do, but you're making them contradict. None of them is saying that our works keep us save; that is no different than saying our works saved (justified) us in the first place.

Let me make this clear:
Our works keep us saved.

Jesus taught works...
He did NOT teach anything else.
He taught that we are to believe in Him.
Believing in Him requires obedience to Him.

The irony of you saying that "faith alone" doesn't appear anywhere in the NT except in a negative sense in James 2, and that "I don't see the word EVIDENCE in the statement that James makes," yet now say that "James is using the word JUSTIFICATION in conjunction with SANCTIFICATION."

God does not require evidence.
Jesus said to give quietly and to pray quietly.

We do good works to further the Kingdom of God.
We do good works because God demands obedience and He wants good works.

Jesus spoke about being born again once, that I can think of.
He spoke about belonging to the Kingdom of God many times....

Jesus is concerned with our behavior and our belief IN HIM.

Where is sanctification in James? James only uses justification, which has different meanings, none of which is sanctification. Sticking only to what James says, he is clearly saying that good works are evidence of a true faith, that faith that doesn't have works is evidence of a "dead" faith, that is, no actual faith at all.

James made a simple statement and should be taken as he said it.
Faith without works is dead.

Our faith
if we do not do good works
is dead.

A faith that is alive and functioning includes good works.

Those that state they are not necessary
or that they are filthy rags to God
are not properly reading the NT and its teachings.

Of course. Nothing I have said goes against that.


If we aren't being sanctified, or if there is no desire to do good works, then we were never justified in the first place.

Too easy.
I hear too many that state they are born again state plainly that good works can even be sinful.

A Christian retains the free will to either do good works or not...
if he choose not to do good works...his faith is useless.

Php 1:6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. (ESV)

Sure.
IF we allow Him to.

AND
in many verses we are told that WE are to pursue righteousness.
It is not automatic to the Christian.

And, as Jesus said, which we both have quoted, that if we love him we will obey his commands. If we do not obey or do not have any desire to obey, then we don't love him, which means we aren't justified.

Well, then, apparently some Christians do not love Jesus.

And how we post could have an effect on confirming incorrect beliefs.

 

[Free]

I'm not too interested in statistics.
I posted the link because you kept repeating that believing in obedience and good works are a Catholic teaching and the Pew Research found that Protestants also hold to the view that good works are necessary for salvation.

My point being that many, likely most, who profess to be Protestant aren't even Christian, as seen in their lack of understanding what the Bible states.

Faith alone means we are justified by faith alone.
How is it understood by many today?
They understand it to mean that we need ONLY faith, with nothing added, in order to be saved.

Which is what it has always meant. Justification is the initial point of salvation. To say "Faith alone means we are justified by faith alone," is the same as saying "that we need ONLY faith, with nothing added, in order to be saved."

Notice how many times Paul says we are saved.

If Jesus said to be baptized, Matthew 28:19, then it is no longer by faith alone....
I'm speaking of salvation NOT justification.

Not getting baptized will not cause us to be declared unrighteous; it will not remove our having been justified. It might mean that we don't progress as much in holiness, due to disobedience, but it does not mean that one isn't saved. So, it remains that we are saved by grace alone through faith alone.

Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
...
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. (ESV)

I never mention sin.
I'm speaking of obedience.

And, my point is, disobedience is sin. If God says not to gossip or lie, and you gossip or lie, you have sinned by disobeying the command to not gossip or lie. Does that automatically mean that a Christian who gossips or lies once, or even here and there, has suddenly lost their salvation, that they aren't justified anymore? Certainly not.

The NT is clear that believers, those who truly are justified and saved, sin often, because they choose to disobey God. Disobedience to the commands of God does not automatically mean a person isn't saved or loses their salvation. Believers can persist in error for a time, even ignoring the conviction of the Holy Spirit for a time, but if they are truly saved, will eventually confess their sins and become obedient.

This started with your statement:

"Those that believe in OSAS....and make some of the statements I absolutely reject...
understand faith alone to mean that NOTHING else is necessary to be saved except faith.

This is why we read statements like:
We can blaspheme God and still be saved.
We can decide whether or not to obey God."

So, what I am trying to get you to understand is that OSAS is irrelevant to believing that "we can blaspheme God and still be saved," as well as "we can decide whether or not to obey God." Because, I guarantee you that you do decide whether or not to obey God, probably multiple times per day. You have likely even blasphemed God without realizing it. Yet, you are still saved, are you not?

I'm told that obeying is too close to "works salvation".

Again, you must take things said in context. You have explicitly stated more than once, and continue to imply, that obedience is necessary for salvation. That is, by definition, salvation by works. It is that which most of us are opposing.

My response is that if obeying God is works salvation...
then I believe in works salvation.

I know, which is in direct contradiction to Jesus and Paul, James, and the rest of the NT writers.

I've seen a lot of statements that reject what Jesus taught.

Same here.

Someone said that we will not be judged on our behavior.

Paul and Jesus do not agree.
Romans 2:19....
John 5:28.....

Again, not for salvation. Our works are evidence of whether or not we are saved. Are those the references you meant to give?

Let me make this clear:
Our works keep us saved.

No, they absolutely do not. That means Christ's atoning work was insufficient. Salvation is God's gracious work from start to finish--he began it and he will finish it. Again, to say that "Our works keep us saved," is essentially no different from saying that our works saved us to begin with.

Sanctification, in the sense of an ongoing process (it is also spoken of as a past event--having been set apart), is not our works keeping us saved; it is growing in holiness. A true believer will love Jesus and desire to be obedient and to grow in holiness, even if they do it very imperfectly; an false believer will not have such a desire or love for Jesus.

Jesus taught works...
He did NOT teach anything else.

Not for salvation, he didn't.

He taught that we are to believe in Him.
Believing in Him requires obedience to Him.

To believe in him is to put our faith in him. Faith precedes obedience.

God does not require evidence.

Of course he doesn't. The evidence is so that we know either why will be saved from his wrath or why we won't; it especially condemns those who reject Christ.

We do good works to further the Kingdom of God.
We do good works because God demands obedience and He wants good works.

We do good works because we love Jesus.

Jesus spoke about being born again once, that I can think of.
He spoke about belonging to the Kingdom of God many times....

Based on what, exactly?

Joh 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
Joh 1:13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. (ESV)

Jesus is concerned with our behavior and our belief IN HIM.

Of course he is.

James made a simple statement and should be taken as he said it.
Faith without works is dead.

Our faith
if we do not do good works
is dead.

A faith that is alive and functioning includes good works.

Which means that works are the evidence of one's faith; no works are evidence that one doesn't actually have a saving faith--it's dead. Again, that is based on a legitimate meaning of "justified."

Those that state they are not necessary
or that they are filthy rags to God
are not properly reading the NT and its teachings.

No, everyone in this thread, as far as I have seen, are only saying that good works are not necessary for salvation, which is the NT teaching. No one is saying, as far as I have seen, that after we are saved, we don't have to do any good works.

Too easy.
I hear too many that state they are born again state plainly that good works can even be sinful.

Then the simply don't understand.

A Christian retains the free will to either do good works or not...
if he choose not to do good works...his faith is useless.

Do you choose to be obedient 100% of the time? Are you perfectly sinless?

Sure.
IF we allow Him to.

If we allow him to? Where does Paul state that?

AND
in many verses we are told that WE are to pursue righteousness.
It is not automatic to the Christian.

I know; I have never stated otherwise. That's because we can choose either to obey God or disobey.

Well, then, apparently some Christians do not love Jesus.

It means they aren't actually Christians.

And how we post could have an effect on confirming incorrect beliefs.

Sure, but we could also be correcting incorrect beliefs.

 

[D-D-W]

Yet, we see that Jesus taught that all foods were clean:

We see that God showed Peter that all foods were clean:

We see that Paul thought all foods were clean:

Rom 14:20 Do not, for the sake of food, destroy the work of God. Everything is indeed clean, but it is wrong for anyone to make another stumble by what he eats. (ESV)

We see that Peter was eating with Gentiles, which also means eating what they ate:

It also seems that Peter and Paul broke the oral law:

This is going way off topic of "sinless to be saved."
Suggest you start another thread if you want to discuss all of that.

 

[Free]

This is going way off topic of "sinless to be saved."
Suggest you start another thread if you want to discuss all of that.

Interesting how you were willing to discuss it previously...