Sinless To Be Saved

[JLB]

My point being that many, likely most, who profess to be Protestant aren't even Christian, as seen in their lack of understanding what the Bible states.

That’s an interesting statement.

I believe understanding is a vital key to being fruitful.

To me, the parable of the Sower teaches this truth.

There were 4 different types of people mentioned.

Only one type was never saved.

Three types were saved.

Only one type remained saved.

 

[Free]

That’s an interesting statement.

I believe understanding is a vital key to being fruitful.

To me, the parable of the Sower teaches this truth.

There were 4 different types of people mentioned.

Only one type was never saved.

Three types were saved.

Only one type remained saved.

Okay. How does that address what I said?

 

[GodsGrace]

My point being that many, likely most, who profess to be Protestant aren't even Christian, as seen in their lack of understanding what the Bible states.

Well then....cultural Christians are better than real Christians
SINCE they believe that God wants obedience...which includes good works - since this is what the NT teaches.

This will be my last post on this topic.

JESUS: Do good works:

Matthew 7:12
12“In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

Matthew 7:21
21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

Matthew 7:26
26“Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27“The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell—and great was its fall.”

Matthew 8:9
9“For I also am a man under authority, with soldiers under me; and I say to this one, ‘Go!’ and he goes, and to another, ‘Come!’ and he comes, and to my slave, ‘Do this!’ and he does it.”

Matthew 6:10
10‘Your kingdom come.
Your will be done,
On earth as it is in heaven.


Matthew 25:45-46
45“Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’
46“These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”


There are many more....Jesus taught that we are to do good works.
To debate this is to debate what Jesus taught.
His commands are for the saved.
The unsaved are not required to obey God.
The idea that we do good works because we love God is not sufficient.
We do good works because Jesus commanded that we do.

Which is what it has always meant. Justification is the initial point of salvation. To say "Faith alone means we are justified by faith alone," is the same as saying "that we need ONLY faith, with nothing added, in order to be saved."

IMMEDIATELY after justification...
comes sanctifiction.
The becoming more and more like Jesus.

This can only be accomplished IF we obey Him.

Notice how many times Paul says we are saved.

He also states that we WILL be saved.

2 Thessalonians 2:13
13But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.


Jesus taught the same - of course:

John 6:40
40“For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.” (must be believing at death).

John 5:29
29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Revelation 2:7
7‘He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God.’

Matthew 24:13
13“But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved. 14“This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.


The one who endures to the end....HE will be saved.

Not getting baptized will not cause us to be declared unrighteous; it will not remove our having been justified. It might mean that we don't progress as much in holiness, due to disobedience, but it does not mean that one isn't saved. So, it remains that we are saved by grace alone through faith alone.

Not discussing baptism here.
Jesus said we are to be taught and baptized.
IF anything is added to faith,,,,
then faith alone is not sufficient.

Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

Of course.
The unsaved need saving...
not the saved.
We were dead in our trespasses before we were saved.

1 of 2

 

[GodsGrace]

2 of 2

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. (ESV)

You left out Eph 2:10 We are created FOR GOOD WORKS.

If we wish to remain in the Kingdom of God...
Good works are necessary.

And, my point is, disobedience is sin. If God says not to gossip or lie, and you gossip or lie, you have sinned by disobeying the command to not gossip or lie. Does that automatically mean that a Christian who gossips or lies once, or even here and there, has suddenly lost their salvation, that they aren't justified anymore? Certainly not.

Strawman.
Not replying.

The NT is clear that believers, those who truly are justified and saved, sin often, because they choose to disobey God. Disobedience to the commands of God does not automatically mean a person isn't saved or loses their salvation. Believers can persist in error for a time, even ignoring the conviction of the Holy Spirit for a time, but if they are truly saved, will eventually confess their sins and become obedient.

Not discussing sin...
I'm discussing obedience to God.
I'm saying that some believe obedience is not necessary once we're saved
b ecause salvation cannot be lost because Jesus will cover EVERYTHING.

I'm saying that we need to speak the language of the NT and not add anything to it.

This started with your statement:

"Those that believe in OSAS....and make some of the statements I absolutely reject...
understand faith alone to mean that NOTHING else is necessary to be saved except faith.

This is why we read statements like:
We can blaspheme God and still be saved.
We can decide whether or not to obey God."

So, what I am trying to get you to understand is that OSAS is irrelevant to believing that "we can blaspheme God and still be saved," as well as "we can decide whether or not to obey God." Because, I guarantee you that you do decide whether or not to obey God, probably multiple times per day. You have likely even blasphemed God without realizing it. Yet, you are still saved, are you not?

Strawman.
Not replying.

Again, you must take things said in context. You have explicitly stated more than once, and continue to imply, that obedience is necessary for salvation.

Yes sir.
§This IS what I'm stating.
I am not implying it.

OBEDIENCE is NECESSARY for salvation.

I believe some call this "works salvation".
I said: So be it.

If Jesus wants works...which is exactly what He taught...
then we are to do works.

Interesting that no one ever even asks what these works might be.
Maybe some don't want to do ANYTHING for Christ?

That is, by definition, salvation by works. It is that which most of us are opposing.

Exactly.
Some oppose good works.
§What Jesus taught for over 3 years.

I know, which is in direct contradiction to Jesus and Paul, James, and the rest of the NT writers.


Same here.


Again, not for salvation. Our works are evidence of whether or not we are saved. Are those the references you meant to give?

Again...God does not require EVIDENCE.
God said to do good works for HIM.
We do good works to make the Kingdom of God better...
not to prove to others that we know God.

No, they absolutely do not. That means Christ's atoning work was insufficient. Salvation is God's gracious work from start to finish--he began it and he will finish it. Again, to say that "Our works keep us saved," is essentially no different from saying that our works saved us to begin with.

"our works keep us saved" means we are doing what God demands...
we are obeying Him.

Sanctification, in the sense of an ongoing process (it is also spoken of as a past event--having been set apart), is not our works keeping us saved; it is growing in holiness. A true believer

A true believer?
Those that claim that works are either not necessary or sinful declare themselves to be a true believer.

will love Jesus and desire to be obedient and to grow in holiness, even if they do it very imperfectly; an false believer will not have such a desire or love for Jesus.

A false believer is not required to obey God.
God will not be mocked.

I'm speaking here about born again Christians that speak against doing good works.

YOU are putting good works into a grey area right now on this thread.

Not for salvation, he didn't.


To believe in him is to put our faith in him. Faith precedes obedience.

What have I been saying??
Do unbelievers need to obey §God?

How many times must this be repeated?

Of course he doesn't. The evidence is so that we know either why will be saved from his wrath or why we won't; it especially condemns those who reject Christ.

Those who reject Christ are ALREADY LOST.

We do good works because we love Jesus.


Based on what, exactly?

Joh 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
Joh 1:13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. (ESV)


Of course he is.


Which means that works are the evidence of one's faith; no works are evidence that one doesn't actually have a saving faith--it's dead. Again, that is based on a legitimate meaning of "justified."


No, everyone in this thread, as far as I have seen, are only saying that good works are not necessary for salvation, which is the NT teaching. No one is saying, as far as I have seen, that after we are saved, we don't have to do any good works.


Then the simply don't understand.


Do you choose to be obedient 100% of the time? Are you perfectly sinless?


If we allow him to? Where does Paul state that?


I know; I have never stated otherwise. That's because we can choose either to obey God or disobey.


It means they aren't actually Christians.


Sure, but we could also be correcting incorrect beliefs.

Repeating.
No response necessary.

One simple question:
Are believers required to obey God or not?

That's a Yes or No reply.

 

[donadams]

can you explain these verses in light of the doctrine of "faith alone"?

matt 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

1 tim 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

Hebrews 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

1 Peter 4:18
And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

thks

 

[donadams]

Then everyone is going to hell and Christ died for nothing.

only one chooses to sin!

wide road is down hill fast and dumps into the lake of fire

the deny thyself take up thy cross and follow Christ on the narrow road up to heaven!

abide in Christ and bear fruit Jn 15:1-6
endure to the end
mk 13:13 mt 10:22 mt 24:13

how do we know the meaning of scripture?

A) scripture alone (literal meaning)

B) Protestant meaning "teaching"

C) Catholic meaning "teaching"

D) context decided by private interpretation

E) scriptural anarchy "each one decides for himself on private judgement

 

[donadams]

I've pointed this out to you before--salvation is spoken of as a past, one-time event (justification), an ongoing process (sanctification), and a final state (glorification). But, it all starts with justification, which is done; a justified person is a saved person, who will become more holy, and will become glorified.

Act 2:46 And day by day, attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes, they received their food with glad and generous hearts,
Act 2:47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved.

Rom 8:24 For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees?

Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
...
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

2Ti 1:9 who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,

Tit 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

do supernatural works (gifts of God) increase in is God's grace?
and does sin cause the loss of grace and us to be lost or damned?

thks

 

[Free]

do supernatural works (gifts of God) increase in is God's grace?

I don't understand this question.

and does sin cause the loss of grace and us to be lost or damned?

What do you mean by "lost" and "damned"? Sin has several negative affects in a believer's life. For instance, it affects the believer's fellowship with God, much like how sin between persons causes distance and a loss of closeness, but will not cause them to lose their salvation, if that is what you mean.

 

[JLB]

Okay. How does that address what I said?

Here is what you said.



I was agreeing with what you said…

…most aren’t even Christian’s as seen in their lack of understanding.

I agree because… I believe understanding is a vital key to being fruitful.

To me, the parable of the Sower teaches this truth.

There were 4 different types of people mentioned.

Only one type was never saved.

Three types were saved.

Only one type remained saved.

 

[D-D-W]

Interesting how you were willing to discuss it previously...

In a limited way, and how it relates to the OP, yes.
But this is increasingly taking on a life of its own apart from the OP.

 

[D-D-W]

Sin has several negative affects in a believer's life. For instance, it affects the believer's fellowship with God, much like how sin between persons causes distance and a loss of closeness,

I totally agree.

but will not cause them to lose their salvation, if that is what you mean.

As a Wesleyan Arminianist, I do disagree with that point.

 

[locust]

only one chooses to sin!

wide road is down hill fast and dumps into the lake of fire

the deny thyself take up thy cross and follow Christ on the narrow road up to heaven!

abide in Christ and bear fruit Jn 15:1-6
endure to the end
mk 13:13 mt 10:22 mt 24:13

how do we know the meaning of scripture?

A) scripture alone (literal meaning)

B) Protestant meaning "teaching"

C) Catholic meaning "teaching"

D) context decided by private interpretation

E) scriptural anarchy "each one decides for himself on private judgement

Typically when fire is mentioned in the bible it means something will be destroyed. gone forever

 

[GodsGrace]

Typically when fire is mentioned in the bible it means something will be destroyed. gone forever

Is hell being thrown into the Lake of Fire?

 

[locust]

Is hell being thrown into the Lake of Fire?

considering that hell is nothing more than the grave ,the place where it is the living put the dead . yes even hell will be destroyed

 

[locust]

No, Jesus is God. He became man. He died and God raised Him from the dead. One person, God and man

And that is what we call a contradiction

 

[GodsGrace]

considering that hell is nothing more than the grave ,the place where it is the living put the dead . yes even hell will be destroyed

There seem to be different opinions about this.

Is there some verse I could refer to??

 

[Free]

Well then....cultural Christians are better than real Christians
SINCE they believe that God wants obedience...which includes good works - since this is what the NT teaches.

What do you mean by "better than real Christians"? Truer Christians? Absolutely not. Cultural Christians are Christians in name only. They largely reject historic, orthodox doctrine. They might do some of the things God commands, as they understand him, which, as I have shown, is often wrong. But even those things they do are as filthy rags. Therefore, they absolutely cannot be "better than real Christians."

Again, I know of no Christian that thinks we don't have to obey God. The idea is absurd, although there likely are people out there who erroneously believe that.

This will be my last post on this topic.

Okay.

JESUS: Do good works:

Matthew 7:12
12“In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

Matthew 7:21
21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

Matthew 7:26
26“Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27“The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell—and great was its fall.”

Matthew 8:9
9“For I also am a man under authority, with soldiers under me; and I say to this one, ‘Go!’ and he goes, and to another, ‘Come!’ and he comes, and to my slave, ‘Do this!’ and he does it.”

Matthew 6:10
10‘Your kingdom come.
Your will be done,
On earth as it is in heaven.


Matthew 25:45-46
45“Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’
46“These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”


There are many more....Jesus taught that we are to do good works.
To debate this is to debate what Jesus taught.

I'm not debating that. I have repeatedly stated that Christians are to do good works. You're making a debate where there is none. We're completely agreed on that point. My point is, that according to the Bible, no good works save us or keep us saved; they are evidence that we are already saved.

His commands are for the saved.
The unsaved are not required to obey God.

Of course. But, according to your position--our good works keep us saved--that means we can lose our salvation and be declared unrighteous if we don't do good works. At what point would that happen? After one sin, a hundred, a thousand? Only if there is no confessing them to God?

How does one become saved again after that, to be justified again (if such a thing was possible)? By doing good works? Wouldn't that mean an unbeliever could be saved simply by doing good works in the first place? That wouldn't be biblical.

IMMEDIATELY after justification...

comes sanctifiction.
The becoming more and more like Jesus.

Yes, I know. But, it isn't a matter of salvation, that was justification. I find it interesting that becoming a Christian is referred to as "being born again" and "new birth." Physically, a person is first born and then grows up into adulthood. There is no going back into the womb; just growing and maturing.

For clarity:

Justification is a one-time, past event, in which a person who believes by faith, is declared righteous—it is to be saved from the penalty and guilt of sin.

Sanctification is both a past event and an ongoing process, in which a person is set apart and then starts to be made holy—it is being saved from the power of sin.

Glorification is a future event—will be saved from the presence of sin.

This can only be accomplished IF we obey Him.

Our obedience is evidence of having been saved. In addition to the fact that is what James was saying:

1Jn 2:3 And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,
1Jn 2:5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him:
…
1Jn 2:9 Whoever says he is in the light and hates his brother is still in darkness.
1Jn 2:10 Whoever loves his brother abides in the light, and in him there is no cause for stumbling.
1Jn 2:11 But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.
…
1Jn 2:15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
1Jn 2:16 For all that is in the world—the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and pride of life—is not from the Father but is from the world.
…
1Jn 2:29 If you know that he is righteous, you may be sure that everyone who practices righteousness has been born of him. (ESV)

1Jn 3:10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.
...
1Jn 3:14 We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brothers. Whoever does not love abides in death. (ESV)

Being obedient and practicing righteousness is evidence of having "come to know him," "been born of him," "are children of God," and "have passed out of death into life." Just as the opposite is evidence of being "a liar" and without the truth, of being without "the love of the Father," and "not of God."

He also states that we WILL be saved.

2 Thessalonians 2:13
13But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.

Yes, it is speaking of glorification, which is a one-time, future event.

Jesus taught the same - of course:

John 6:40
40“For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.” (must be believing at death).

John 5:29
29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Revelation 2:7
7‘He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God.’

Matthew 24:13
13“But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved. 14“This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.


The one who endures to the end....HE will be saved.

Yes, glorification. I have mentioned this. But, we are also already saved; we have already "passed out of death into life." If you think that Jesus is saying good works save or keep us saved, then he would be contradicting Paul and James.

Not discussing baptism here.
Jesus said we are to be taught and baptized.
IF anything is added to faith,,,,
then faith alone is not sufficient.

Baptism isn't a means of salvation and not getting baptized does not mean a person will not be saved in the end, although I believe it will affect their fellowship with God. It also could be evidence that such a person isn't truly saved to begin with, since a person who is saved should want to be baptized.

Of course.
The unsaved need saving...
not the saved.
We were dead in our trespasses before we were saved.

Yes, I know. I'm not sure how this addresses the verse you quoted, which clearly states "you have been saved." If the saved don't need saving, then how, exactly, do works keep us saved? Isn't that saying that the saved need saving?

 

[Free]

And that is what we call a contradiction

Where, exactly, is the contradiction?

 

[Free]

You left out Eph 2:10 We are created FOR GOOD WORKS.

I know. Good works don't save us, which means they cannot keep us saved.

If we wish to remain in the Kingdom of God...
Good works are necessary.

Those are are saved will do good works, those very works they were created to do. Those who don't do good works, who have no desire to do good works, were never truly saved to begin with.

Strawman.
Not replying.

It is not a straw man, as I am not stating anything about what you believe, and I don't think that is why you don't want to reply. It is relevant to the discussion.

Not discussing sin...
I'm discussing obedience to God.

While being unwilling to answer whether or not disobedience is sin. It is relevant.

I'm saying that some believe obedience is not necessary once we're saved
b ecause salvation cannot be lost because Jesus will cover EVERYTHING.

Again, no one in this thread is saying that, that I have seen.

I'm saying that we need to speak the language of the NT and not add anything to it.

Of course. So am I.

Strawman.
Not replying.

Again, there was no straw man. You seem to be avoiding anything to difficult for your position to take into account.

Yes sir.
§This IS what I'm stating.
I am not implying it.

OBEDIENCE is NECESSARY for salvation.

I believe some call this "works salvation".
I said: So be it.

Then it be.

If Jesus wants works...which is exactly what He taught...
then we are to do works.

Not for salvation, he doesn't.

Interesting that no one ever even asks what these works might be.
Maybe some don't want to do ANYTHING for Christ?

Maybe.

Exactly.
Some oppose good works.
§What Jesus taught for over 3 years.

Now, here is a straw man. My statement was, "That is, by definition, salvation by works. It is that which most of us are opposing." While my statement clearly is in opposition to salvation by works, you have misrepresented it to mean opposing good works in general.

Again...God does not require EVIDENCE.
God said to do good works for HIM.
We do good works to make the Kingdom of God better...
not to prove to others that we know God.

And I've already addressed this. Please, take things in context.

"our works keep us saved" means we are doing what God demands...
we are obeying Him.

Which doesn't "keep us saved."

A true believer?
Those that claim that works are either not necessary or sinful declare themselves to be a true believer.

This doesn't make any sense.

A false believer is not required to obey God.
God will not be mocked.

Which isn't relevant to anything I've said.

I'm speaking here about born again Christians that speak against doing good works.

Where? Not in this thread.

YOU are putting good works into a grey area right now on this thread.

Not at all. Believers are supposed to do good works. I have stated that numerous times. They just don't save us.

What have I been saying??
Do unbelievers need to obey §God?

How many times must this be repeated?

It doesn't; it didn't even need to be stated in the first place because it is obviously true and has nothing to do with anything I've stated.

Those who reject Christ are ALREADY LOST.

Again, this is to state the obvious, and it doesn't address what I stated.

One simple question:
Are believers required to obey God or not?

That's a Yes or No reply.

I have repeatedly answered this question and just from reading all I have written, the question doesn't even need to be asked to know what I believe on this. But, yes, believers are to obey God.

 

[JLB]

But, yes, believers are to obey God. But, yes, believers are to obey God

I think you have answered the question well.

However the question and answer are in the most general sense.


What happens if a believer doesn’t obey this teaching from Jesus Christ?

But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. Matthew 6:15

Will they continue to be saved?