Some of the serious NT warnings to the churches

[jasoncran]

sheesh.

ok then why does the Lord warn us not showing mercy? why would use a parable of men whom could never pay a debt being forgiven of it and then goes and shows no mercy to the man whom owed him.?isn't our debt of sin of such manner?

 

[childeye]

I did, and I responded to that. my friend that is my testimony. I repented at reading romans 1:26. I was going to church faithfully and fell into that sin. its all there. in jewish thought one can know god yet its not as we in the west say I KNOW god. its more of having a relationship.

the greek uses a different word.
Abraham was said to know have Known YHWH in exodus and yet in genesis its says he called YHWH by that name. in the Talmud its said(and adam Clarke agrees) that abram knew god by el shaddai as God as that is how God revealed himself. he did know of the name YHWH but wasn't under that type of relationship? God didn't work with abram as mercy and grace so much but more as a provider and protecter. God has many attributes and doesn't always present them at the same time to us.

Glad to hear you say that. Romans 1 is really summed up in Romans 2:1, wherein it is pointed out that we have no excuse for judging the sin in others so as to condemn. I say this because sometimes it seems people think we choose to not esteem God as God when in fact it is vanity that makes us think we can choose not to be abominations by our own self-will, hence we worship the creation over the Creator.

 

[Mitspa]

In the tanach , YHWH says that if the wicked depart and turning right he would remember their evil deeds no more. and the reverse is also said. since when didn't grace exist in the tanach? remember and Noah found grace in the eyes of the lord.

Of course you understand that Noah was before the law, and worshiped God by faith. The grace of noah is not to be compared to what we have in Christ! Old covenant "contract" NEW COVENANT WRITTEN IN THE BLOOD OF CHRIST!

here is another warning? Those who account His Blood as a common thing such as the sacrifices of the law, are in the greatest of errors. So those of you who keep going back into the law, and seem to forget the Cross and His Blood are in great danger of being judged. For you are in "willing" sin, and are rejecting the Spirit of grace.

 

[jasoncran]

so when the Hebrew man moses wrote that as heard it passed to him from his parents he couldn't have understood that the father of the Hebrew nation also found grace? opps that too is in genesis and so did King david. God choose not to slay david, yet in the law there was no sin offering for adultery and murder! um don't confuse the pharisetical and modern day rabbinical idea of the law with what the torah says. the word torah meants teacher not law. what did it teach? the love and character of God and how to be like him.

if God didn't give out the torah then would be no early church foundation for them to know what god was. when paul wrote this verse

study thyself of the scriptures and show thyself..a workman that needeth not be ashamed..

they had the tanach not the entire bible as that was canonized until long after the early church's arrival.
the grace of noah isn't to be compared? really. he was shown mercy and was saved from the flood during the most wicked time in earth's history. that my friend is mercy and grace.

 

[childeye]

so when the Hebrew man moses wrote that as heard it passed to him from his parents he couldn't have understood that the father of the Hebrew nation also found grace? opps that too is in genesis and so did King david. God choose not to slay david, yet in the law there was no sin offering for adultery and murder! um don't confuse the pharisetical and modern day rabbinical idea of the law with what the torah says. the word torah meants teacher not law. what did it teach? the love and character of God and how to be like him.

if God didn't give out the torah then would be no early church foundation for them to know what god was. when paul wrote this verse

they had the tanach not the entire bible as that was canonized until long after the early church's arrival.
the grace of noah isn't to be compared? really. he was shown mercy and was saved from the flood during the most wicked time in earth's history. that my friend is mercy and grace.

I wish I could tell to whom you are addressing this post.

 

[jasoncran]

its at mitzpa.

the covenant with isreal at horeb doesn't negate the concepts of the mercy and grace, the torah was there to teach the isrealite what God wanted and how to be pleased. all the Lord did change is how we get forgiven and the ceremonial parts of the torah. the punishment for sins is paid at the cross. he gave the torah for the time that it was in. god dealt with men when he revealed his word to men of that era.

 

[childeye]

its at mitzpa.

the covenant with isreal at horeb doesn't negate the concepts of the mercy and grace, the torah was there to teach the isrealite what God wanted and how to be pleased. all the Lord did change is how we get forgiven and the ceremonial parts of the torah. the punishment for sins is paid at the cross. he gave the torah for the time that it was in. god dealt with men when he revealed his word to men of that era.

I agree that the law came first rather than the Spirit of Christ, but why? So that men may know through the law that they could not keep it. So what do you have to say about why the bible says, the Letter kills but the Spirit gives Life? I think you already know these things but I don't know what else to say about the matter.

 

[jasoncran]

a retiration of what the jews should have known. its implied in the tanach all throughout. it not the torah came first but rather the Hebrews then would know by oral transmission what god wanted.

ie how did Joseph know that adultery was wrong. its never said formally that it was. its implied in the stories abram and sarai in Egypt and Philistia, but never said that God would judge them do that. this is what is known as the oral law.yes the jews do believe the torah was as you said but I slightly disagree in that its the whole torah as the horeb experience. ie Abraham didn't do the shabat.

 

[childeye]

a retiration of what the jews should have known. its implied in the tanach all throughout. it not the torah came first but rather the Hebrews then would know by oral transmission what god wanted.

ie how did Joseph know that adultery was wrong. its never said formally that it was. its implied in the stories abram and sarai in Egypt and Philistia, but never said that God would judge them do that. this is what is known as the oral law.yes the jews do believe the torah was as you said but I slightly disagree in that its the whole torah as the horeb experience. ie Abraham didn't do the shabat.

Thanks for talking to me like I'm not Jewish, at least I don't think I am. What you say makes perfect sense to me concerning reiterating what they already should know. However, was it taught that there exists a virtue through the Spirit that prevented adultery from happening rather than just knowing it was wrong?

 

[Mitspa]

its at mitzpa.

the covenant with isreal at horeb doesn't negate the concepts of the mercy and grace, the torah was there to teach the isrealite what God wanted and how to be pleased. all the Lord did change is how we get forgiven and the ceremonial parts of the torah. the punishment for sins is paid at the cross. he gave the torah for the time that it was in. god dealt with men when he revealed his word to men of that era.

Jason, that is just your opinion, Paul spends great effort and makes very clear that the law has indeed been fulfilled In the Cross and that the believer is under no part of the law, and that indeed it is the greastest of sins for one to attempt to be justified by the law. Now anyone can read this and it is clear and evident, It cannot be challenged! Now you can ignore the gospel Paul preached if you like? But you and all the others that promote the law, need to warn yourself and stop trying to warn others. I have spent hours showing you clear sripture and you seem to have no desire to walk in the truth. I will not waste my time trying to teach someone who has no respect for the gospel.

 

[gr8grace]

I agree that the law came first rather than the Spirit of Christ, but why? So that men may know through the law that they could not keep it. So what do you have to say about why the bible says, the Letter kills but the Spirit gives Life?

Salvation has always been by Grace. The Lord reveals to us a "shadow" of the Cross in the OT. But I believe that old Testament saints grew to Spiritual maturity on the Basis of A knowledge of the Cross to come.

Isaac was a shadow of Christ. But Abraham believed in the future messiah.

The ark is a picture of Christ and the coming Messiah. Noah believed that Future.

The rock that Moses struck, the serpent on a pole was a picture of the Christ to come. Moses believed in a coming redeemer.

Genesis 5 and the names listed in the Hebrew meaning is a picture of the Christ to come, and the old testament Saints believed God was going to send a redeemer.

Adam........man
Seth..........Appointed
Enosh.........Human
Kanen........curse
mahalalel...the blessed god
Jared.........shall come down
Enoch.........consecrate himself
Methusalah.His death shall bring
Lemach......conquering
Noah..........rest(comfort)

I do not know How much was revealed to the Old Testament Saints, but I believe it was more then we give them credit for. They might not have had the perfect revelation of the cross, But they believed God was sending a redeemer.

 

[childeye]

Salvation has always been by Grace. The Lord reveals to us a "shadow" of the Cross in the OT. But I believe that old Testament saints grew to Spiritual maturity on the Basis of A knowledge of the Cross to come.

Isaac was a shadow of Christ. But Abraham believed in the future messiah.

The ark is a picture of Christ and the coming Messiah. Noah believed that Future.

The rock that Moses struck, the serpent on a pole was a picture of the Christ to come. Moses believed in a coming redeemer.

Genesis 5 and the names listed in the Hebrew meaning is a picture of the Christ to come, and the old testament Saints believed God was going to send a redeemer.

Adam........man
Seth..........Appointed
Enosh.........Human
Kanen........curse
mahalalel...the blessed god
Jared.........shall come down
Enoch.........consecrate himself
Methusalah.His death shall bring
Lemach......conquering
Noah..........rest(comfort)

I do not know How much was revealed to the Old Testament Saints, but I believe it was more then we give them credit for. They might not have had the perfect revelation of the cross, But they believed God was sending a redeemer.

An excellent and humbling post. Thank you.

 

[Mitspa]

a retiration of what the jews should have known. its implied in the tanach all throughout. it not the torah came first but rather the Hebrews then would know by oral transmission what god wanted.

ie how did Joseph know that adultery was wrong. its never said formally that it was. its implied in the stories abram and sarai in Egypt and Philistia, but never said that God would judge them do that. this is what is known as the oral law.yes the jews do believe the torah was as you said but I slightly disagree in that its the whole torah as the horeb experience. ie Abraham didn't do the shabat.

It dont matter what the Jews knew or when they knew it! The New Testament makes all these issues very clear, the law had is purpose and Christ came and fufilled every jot and tittle, for those who are in faith. Now the law is not of faith and whatever is not of faith is sin. The strength of sin is the law. The law produces sinful desires in those who look to the law.
That NO MAN can be justified by the deeds of the law is evident! That means nobody will have any excuse on judgment day for rejecting the grace of God and going about to establish their own righteousness by the law. The warnings of the NT are for those who turn from grace back to law.
Gal 5:4 You have been cut off from Christ, you who are justified by the law, you have fallen from grace.

Now it dont get no clearer than that! Those who warn others should warn and teach themselves!

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So what are some of those abstract Ideas?

Are these abstract Ideas from God?

“Whosoever believes in me will not perish, but have everlasting life.” Jn 3:15

“For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him will not perish, but have everlasting life.” Jn 3:16

“He that believes on him is not condemned, but he that believes not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.” Jn 3:18

“He that believes the Son has everlasting life, and he that believes not the Son, shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” Jn 3:36

“And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one that which sees the Son, and believes on him, will have everlasting life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”Jn 6:40

“Truly I say unto you, he that believes on me, has everlasting life.” Jn 6:47

The abstract ideas are from creatures that add to these very basic and easy to read verses.

The more Faith alone in Christ alone is attacked, it becomes more obvious that it must be the truth. (and it IS)

3000 people will disagree with faith alone(because religion and the world rules today) and 2 will agree....I am going with the 2 that get attacked for their belief, if they get attacked it must be From Christ. The world does not attack that which is from this world.

(I guess this is a good place to jump in since I last posted several pages ago, lol.)

So there's no misunderstanding, I defend "righteousness (by faith) apart from works" (aka, 'faith alone') with all my being. But if you take 'faith' away from 'salvation by faith alone' you still have salvation? How is that?

It's interesting that faith is clearly distinguished from works as the way to be justified/ saved by those who defend OSAS (and rightly so!), but when it's suggested that you have to continue in that same faith that saves all by itself to the end to be saved, faith suddenly becomes a work of merit that plays no part in salvation.

 

[Mitspa]

(I guess this is a good place to jump in since I last posted several pages ago, lol.)

So there's no misunderstanding, I defend "righteousness (by faith) apart from works" (aka, 'faith alone') with all my being. But if you take 'faith' away from 'salvation by faith alone' you still have salvation? How is that?

It's interesting that faith is clearly distinguished from works as the way to be justified/ saved by those who defend OSAS (and rightly so!), but when it's suggested that you have to continue in that same faith that saves all by itself to the end to be saved, faith suddenly becomes a work of merit that plays no part in salvation.

So if one believes the clear and evident truth of scripture it is thrown into some OSAS doctrine that can mean alot of things to alot of people. The only warning of those who are turn away from faith are those who go back into law. Because the law is not of faith. So if you folks who are so worried about the condition of others faith, would start preaching the true gospel maybe folks would be able to continue in fath? Some of you guys preach doubt, fear and legalism and then try to ACT like your concerned about the faith of others? This is just a bunch of doulble talk. No one can stand by law, all can stand if they know and trust Gods grace.

I do not teach OSAS because the scriptures declare that those who seek to be justified by law are CUT OFF from Christ, they have fallen from grace. But if one continues in grace they cannot fall away. So I will start adding "in grace" OSAS OR IGOSAS now you guys have heard it first on this thead! lol

Here is another one "by law you are lost" BLYAL

 

[gr8grace]

(I guess this is a good place to jump in since I last posted several pages ago, lol.)

So there's no misunderstanding, I defend "righteousness (by faith) apart from works" (aka, 'faith alone') with all my being. But if you take 'faith' away from 'salvation by faith alone' you still have salvation? How is that?

It's interesting that faith is clearly distinguished from works as the way to be justified/ saved by those who defend OSAS (and rightly so!), but when it's suggested that you have to continue in that same faith that saves all by itself to the end to be saved, faith suddenly becomes a work of merit that plays no part in salvation.

Then Jethro, you do not defend faith alone with all your being. Do you see?

It is the Faith of God that saves us, our mustard seed that the holy Spirit made effectual is then handed over to our Savior. It starts with our Savior and ends with our Savior. Before we are saved we count on the promise of God to save us, and after we are saved we count on His Faith to Keep us saved.
2 Tim 2:13.

Acts 16:31....In ACT 16:31, the word believe, or pisteuo, is an aorist tense. With an aorist tense being used, it means that at the exact point of time that you believe, God saves you. It is not only academic dishonesty, it is also blasphemous to tell people that they can lose their salvation, and then back it up by misquoting the original languages. In addition to the aorist tense, the word believe, or pisteuo, The active voice indicates that the subject produces the action of the verb, and that there is no violation of human volition. In addition, the imperative mood tells us that this is a command. In fact, it is the only way of salvation.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The Bible clearly teaches that we are born again of the Holy Spirit, based on faith which God Himself enables within us, not on any reasoning or wisdom we might conjure up that would be adequate to restore the fellowship with God that was lost when Adam sinned.

Without a doubt. It is because of the supernatural ability to know the gospel is true that we can then believe in the gospel and be saved. Believing, actually putting our trust in that which we now know to be true by the supernatural gift of faith, is how we are saved. But what if we stop trusting in that which God has shown us to be true?

All who have been born again absolutely possess the eternal security of Christ and will persevere.

Once a person places their trust in the gospel that God has shown them is true, through the power of faith, is that person now incapable of not believing (trusting) in that which they know to be true?

It's important to distinguish between 'faith' and 'believing' to understand what I'm saying. Many people are shown that the gospel is true by the supernatural work of faith through the voice of the Holy Spirit at work in the world, but few actually believe, placing their trust in the gospel they have been shown to be true through the power of the gift of faith. IOW, many are called, few are chosen. Do the chosen, those who believe (put their trust in the gospel), become incapable of not believing and trusting in the gospel they know to be true once they have believed it?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So if one believes the clear and evident truth of scripture it is thrown into some OSAS doctrine that can mean alot of things to alot of people. The only warning of those who are turn away from faith are those who go back into law. Because the law is not of faith.

So, there is no warning for those who go back to the world and are in neither faith nor law? Why does backsliding always have to mean false religion instead of no religion to you? Aren't you making an obvious error in judgment to conclude that everybody who rejects faith in Christ is opting for works salvation instead of no religion/salvation at all? Why is there no room in your thinking for people who simply cast religion aside altogether who once entertained it?

So if you folks who are so worried about the condition of others faith, would start preaching the true gospel maybe folks would be able to continue in fath? Some of you guys preach doubt, fear and legalism and then try to ACT like your concerned about the faith of others? This is just a bunch of doulble talk. No one can stand by law, all can stand if they know and trust Gods grace.

Who are you talking about? Paul, who reminded the churches that those who do unlawful things will not inherit the kingdom of God?

Why is a sermon about what condemns a person (the law) automatically a sermon on how to be saved by that law and a vote for works justification/ salvation?

I do not teach OSAS because the scriptures declare that those who seek to be justified by law are CUT OFF from Christ, they have fallen from grace. But if one continues in grace they cannot fall away.

BINGO! That's what I think we need to honestly examine in this OSAS discussion. The Bible strongly suggests that the promises are sure to those who continue in the faith that secured those promises for them in the first place!

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Then Jethro, you do not defend faith alone with all your being. Do you see?

It is the Faith of God that saves us, our mustard seed that the holy Spirit made effectual is then handed over to our Savior. It starts with our Savior and ends with our Savior. Before we are saved we count on the promise of God to save us, and after we are saved we count on His Faith to Keep us saved.
2 Tim 2:13.

Acts 16:31....In ACT 16:31, the word believe, or pisteuo, is an aorist tense. With an aorist tense being used, it means that at the exact point of time that you believe, God saves you. It is not only academic dishonesty, it is also blasphemous to tell people that they can lose their salvation, and then back it up by misquoting the original languages. In addition to the aorist tense, the word believe, or pisteuo, The active voice indicates that the subject produces the action of the verb, and that there is no violation of human volition. In addition, the imperative mood tells us that this is a command. In fact, it is the only way of salvation.

Honestly, you'll have to dumb this down a notch for me to understand. But what it sounds like you're saying is a person can't change their mind once they believe (trust) the gospel (through the gift of faith). Which is what I've been saying is the real question to ask in regard to OSAS: "Can a truly born again person really stop believing?" (Not what will happen if they do that). We just don't know if it's truly possible for them to do that (stop believing). See what I'm saying? I'm saying the simple fact that we are warned not to stop believing suggests it's possible to do that.

 

[reba]

2.5: Respect each others' opinions. Address issues, not persons or personalities. Give other members the respect you would want them to give yourself. Not necessarily direct at the last poster