Some of the serious NT warnings to the churches

[Mitspa]

John the Baptist sent some of his disciples to ask Jesus, "Are you the one we should be looking for? Or must we wait for someone else?" (Matthew 11:3). Yet, when he baptized his cousin, Jesus, John knew that Jesus was the Messiah (Matthew 3:13-17). So why does he question him now?

Did John lose his salvation for having doubt? No!
Did Peter lose his salvation for denying Lord Jesus three times? No!
Did Moses, David, and Paul lose there salvation for Murder? No!
In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Ephesians 1:7
God looks at your heart!

Very good points ilove!

 

[gr8grace]

I agree with everything that you have said.

But that's not the question, I try to do better.

I was saved not believing in eternal security.....was I really saved?
Or I was not saved because I did not believe in eternal security?

You know deb you really made me think! and about how the Spirit is in control. It makes me think of what I said to Jethro about being exact in our witness.(which I try)

If we are teaching Christ crucified, the holy Spirit will be in control.To a willing soul, The Spirit will only Allow the exact truth to be heard and what we "ADD" will not be heard.

So yes I believe you were saved at that moment. As an unbeliever we are not required to know anything except that we are sinners and cannot save ourselves and Christ died to save us(and the Spirit reveals that to us also). Any thing more then that requires the Holy Spirit, which we do not get until we are saved.

 

[Deborah13]

You know deb you really made me think! and about how the Spirit is in control. It makes me think of what I said to Jethro about being exact in our witness.(which I try)

If we are teaching Christ crucified, the holy Spirit will be in control.To a willing soul, The Spirit will only Allow the exact truth to be heard and what we "ADD" will not be heard.

So yes I believe you were saved at that moment. As an unbeliever we are not required to know anything except that we are sinners and cannot save ourselves and Christ died to save us. Any thing more then that requires the Holy Spirit, which we do not get until we are saved.

Thank you for such a straight forward reply.
I was witnessed to by a Baptist lady who had been saved for many yrs. and old grandma. She read the scriptures and explained forgiveness of my sins. I suppose it did not occur to her to tell me I could not lose that salvation.
Then I went to a church, wonderful people, that believed one could lose their salvation.

At the time works to me meant righteous works but not the Law.

 

[gr8grace]

Thank you for such a straight forward reply.
I was witnessed to by a Baptist lady who had been saved for many yrs. and old grandma. She read the scriptures and explained forgiveness of my sins. I suppose it did not occur to her to tell me I could not lose that salvation.
Then I went to a church, wonderful people, that believed one could lose their salvation.

At the time works to me meant righteous works but not the Law.

I thank the Lord for that Grandma in your Life. If she witnessed truth to you,She did not have to explain eternal security to you. It was just in the truth she was presenting to you.

 

[Deborah13]

Well I am going to go outside of the traditional acceptance of "being saved" I cannot understand a salvation that does not included the witness of Gods Love. If that love had not been so real to me, I would have no doubt returned to worldly things.
I did not understand the concepts of faith in the Blood or eternal salvation etc... I knew that I knew that God loved me. His mighty Spirit was upon me so strong that if I even stood beside an unsaved person they would begin to weep at His compassion and love for them. I won more souls just by looking others in the eyes than all the doctrines of those who were concerned with explaining salvation. My proof of God was as simple as to say, Let me lay my hands upon you and you will know God is real. So in a real way I do not believe that any should accept a salvation that does not have this witness with it.
To be honest Deb, I do not think that those who are so concerned with others sin, have any idea that a believer is saved in spirit and the flesh cannot unsave them. If a sin can unsave them it is some sort of spiritual adultry, such as turning back into law.

Mitspa, thank you for responding.
I can assure you that at least for me when I got saved, even though I did not believe in eternal security, I felt His love, He blessed me in many ways, and I did manifest the fruit of the Spirit. I was sure it was real then and I am now. But when there are those who say things that have been said today and I am not talking about works people, I'm talking about those of the grace people then it can cause doubt. Because if they say you weren't really saved before and you
when you believed you were how can you be sure you're saved now?
I'm not speaking of you, you're just an odd duck.

 

[gr8grace]

Mitspa, thank you for responding.
I can assure you that at least for me when I got saved, even though I did not believe in eternal security, I felt His love, He blessed me in many ways, and I did manifest the fruit of the Spirit. I was sure it was real then and I am now. But when there are those who say things that have been said today and I am not talking about works people, I'm talking about those of the grace people then it can cause doubt. Because if they say you weren't really saved before and you
when you believed you were how can you be sure you're saved now?
I'm not speaking of you, you're just an odd duck.

Deb, (sister for sure!)

I sure hope that I have not cast doubt on you and salvation. If I have in any way I am open to refine how I speak and offer truth.

 

[Deborah13]

Deb, (sister for sure!)

I sure hope that I have not cast doubt on you and salvation. If I have in any way I am open to refine how I speak and offer truth.

Absolutely NOT!! I asked you because I felt you would speak in a straight forward manner. I heard what I had hoped to hear and it was very edifing to me.

Thank you.

 

[gr8grace]

Absolutely NOT!! I asked you because I felt you would speak in a straight forward manner. I heard what I had hoped to hear and it was very edifing to me.

Thank you.

God bless you Deb! And when we get to heaven I know I will be giving you a huge hug.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

"What could entice someone to abandon the faith they have in Christ?"

I can think of two possibilities outside of the two you listed: 1) love of the world, and 2) not being willing to pay the costs of discipleship as they learn about and encounter those costs after professing faith in Christ.

How is it anyone who is truly trusting in Christ would do something like that? How can you conceive of someone who loves the Lord being so worldly? The only way I can see anyone making such a decision is that they were not saved in the first place. Anyone who has experienced His love, grace, mercy, peace, comfort, blessing, provision, and power would not do that. And anyone who has truly believed has, in fact, experienced all those things. You are talking of unbelief, not belief abandoned.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

How is it anyone who is truly trusting in Christ would do something like that? How can you conceive of someone who loves the Lord being so worldly? The only way I can see anyone making such a decision is that they were not saved in the first place. Anyone who has experienced His love, grace, mercy, peace, comfort, blessing, provision, and power would not do that. And anyone who has truly believed has, in fact, experienced all those things. You are talking of unbelief, not belief abandoned.

I hear you saying that only unbelievers struggle with temptations to worldliness and, therefore, the many exhortations and warnings in the Bible are for them, not for real believers. I wish that were true, but temptation and the possibility of failure are a normal and expected part of every Christian's life. I'd be shocked if you disagreed with that.

As powerful as the love of God is in the believer's life, it's just a fact of life that real Christians are susceptible to sin and failure. That being true, it's understandable that the warnings to not fall away could be very much for the genuine believer in Christ, and that the possibility of a change of mind exists for them, too.

I'm wondering if the faith that does not persevere doesn't always mean that faith was not sufficient to save to begin with (though that's possible, of course), but rather that faith was simply not able to persevere. After 27 years of being a Christian I think I can see that truth in my own walk.

I'm stronger today than I have ever been, but I know that even before in my weaker faith, a faith that may not have been able to persevere to the extent it can today, I was still very much saved by that faith, just not as able to persevere the way I can now at this point. I've never fallen away, but I can clearly see in these last few years that my faith, the saving faith I've had all along, is more able to persevere and resist failure, not now capable of saving me where it was not before.


Just as we were saved by God's power through faith, so it is that we also persevere by God's power through faith:

"This inheritance is kept in heaven for you, 5 who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 In all this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. 7 These have come so that the proven genuineness of your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed. " (1 Peter 1:4-7)

The point being, it's clear from this passage that if you do not continue in faith--the thing Peter says we are shielded by God's power through until the day of salvation--you can not continue to be shielded by God's power until the day of salvation. Which is contrary to what some say that even losing your faith can not separate you from God's power to keep you.

Peter says faith is in fact how God keeps us to the day of salvation. It reasons that if you remove faith you have removed the very thing through which God keeps you! In addition, the suffering we endure not only shows the genuineness of that faith, but also refines it, making it more able to persevere, not making it now able to save where it could not before.

The bottom line is, 1) You can not remove faith and expect to be saved on the day of wrath. The question is can we really stop the believing that shields us until that day? As I said before, the very fact that we--believers still susceptible to the temptations of the world despite the love of God--are warned not to do that suggests to me that it is in fact possible. And 2) the refining of faith is not making faith that could not save before now able to save, but rather making faith able to persevere.

 

[Ryan]

Actually, I'm screaming for the attention of ANYONE in this forum. Nobody listens. It's discouraging. Nobody answers the points I bring up with thoughtful insight or honest inquiry. I'm used to it though. Hardened indoctrination, hands firmly clasped over the ears, seems to the be trait of the church. I know about it because I used to be hindered that way myself.

Don't be discouraged, I am hearing it loud and clear. Scripture just does not seem to be hitting the mark, of which there seems to be less and less references to it as this thread treads along. IMHO OSAS doctrine is just a breeding ground to convert lazy believers into a doctrine that doesn't require much, and is littered with mushy, gushy feel good messages with no depth or breadth of substance to keep people in the pews. With something as great and precious as our salvation, why would we want to put it in jeopardy by out and out disobedience?

Exodus 32:32 "But now, if You will, forgive their sin—and if not, please blot me out from Your book which You have written!â€

Exodus 32:33 "The Lord said to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book."

Deuteronomy 29:20 "The Lord shall never be willing to forgive him, but rather the anger of the Lord and His jealousy will burn against that man, and every curse which is written in this book will rest on him, and the Lord will blot out his name from under heaven."

Revelation 3:5 "He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels."

Revelation 20:15 "And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

So how could one be blotted out if they weren't already written in the book of life to begin with?

Something as eternal as our salvation, why would one want to play around with fire?

 

[Deborah13]

Don't be discouraged, I am hearing it loud and clear. Scripture just does not seem to be hitting the mark, of which there seems to be less and less references to it as this thread treads along. IMHO OSAS doctrine is just a breeding ground to convert lazy believers into a doctrine that doesn't require much, and is littered with mushy, gushy feel good messages with no depth or breadth of substance to keep people in the pews. With something as great and precious as our salvation, why would we want to put it in jeopardy by out and out disobedience?

Exodus 32:32 "But now, if You will, forgive their sin—and if not, please blot me out from Your book which You have written!”

Exodus 32:33 "The Lord said to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book."

Deuteronomy 29:20 "The Lord shall never be willing to forgive him, but rather the anger of the Lord and His jealousy will burn against that man, and every curse which is written in this book will rest on him, and the Lord will blot out his name from under heaven."

Revelation 3:5 "He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels."

Revelation 20:15 "And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

So how could one be blotted out if they weren't already written in the book of life to begin with?

Something as eternal as our salvation, why would one want to play around with fire?

Ryan, you need to go study up. The greatest OSAS people are Calvinist and they believe that a truly saved person will not backslide. What do the Messianic Jews say?

 

[Mitspa]

The law is not of faith. You are CUT OFF from Christ, you who seek to be justified by the law, you have fallen from grace.
Most every warning in the New Testament is to those who are turning back into law. Those who reject the righteousness of faith and go about to establish their own righteousness by works of law or the other religious works we see in mans religion today.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Don't be discouraged, I am hearing it loud and clear.

Thank you. I forgot about those who lurk. I'm encouraged.

So how could one be blotted out if they weren't already written in the book of life to begin with?

It's hard to ignore, isn't it?

 

[Sparkey]

How is it anyone who is truly trusting in Christ would do something like that? How can you conceive of someone who loves the Lord being so worldly? The only way I can see anyone making such a decision is that they were not saved in the first place. Anyone who has experienced His love, grace, mercy, peace, comfort, blessing, provision, and power would not do that. And anyone who has truly believed has, in fact, experienced all those things. You are talking of unbelief, not belief abandoned.

The question of "how" is answered. No man may serve two masters. Because of the Grace of One Master, it may look, for a moment, that this isn't the case. Don't kid yourself (not you, TND - using the plural "you" here), none may serve two. We are slaves to whomever we present our members to. Consider what happens in secret and know the secret of hiding the good things that we are involved in because all such thing will be revealed. Either to the glory or to the shame of those who do them. I think differently here. Who is it that does not secretly have sin?

IF we confess our sins and IF we continue in Him we shall be saved. That becomes an impossibility for those whose hearts have been removed from grace (so they are turned over to their own lusts). Good news for those of us who have experienced such things is that the motivation of God remains the same, not of punishment, but of allowing the pain that comes from the choice to depart from Him to be seen and known and felt, and hopefully the person who reaches the bottom (and for each person, that bottom level is different, he says while remembering and chuckling to himself that he is speaking to an addictions counselor) may stand aghast when they see where they are (eating with the swine) and return to the feast prepared for him by his Loving Father who is desiring only to kill the fatted calf in celebration of His son who was dead and has now returned. . o O ("Even my father's servants are treated better than this!") At least, that's how I read things.

What say you?

 

[Mitspa]

Thank you. I forgot about those who lurk. I'm encouraged.



It's hard to ignore, isn't it?

Yes those who reject the free justification in grace and turn back to be justified by law , are in real danger!
If you know anyone who like Esau, sold their birthright into the kingdom, to glory in their flesh, you should give them a strong warning!

 

[francisdesales]

I'm sorry you were hurt Joe. Please don't go away.

I think it was more noticing that my spirituality was being dragged down by a couple other people here. Most are very good Christians, from what I can tell, zealous for the Lord and are ordinarily following His path. However, some are still "maturing", if you catch my drift and the "old man" wants to come out and play! It is a cycle that was leading me backwards.

I appreciate your love and hope I am able to keep the "old man" under wraps better this time around.

Joe

 

[francisdesales]

First I did not, nor where we in any way speaking of the law of faith! That is just dishonest.
It dont feel very good having the law laid upon "you" does it? It seems to have a effect of seperation from the confidence of faith, does it not? And you know well the scripture I quoted was that "the law is not of faith", and there is no debate about its context or meaning. So my point to you and others is the same? You who preach the law do not keep the law, actually in your attempts to misquote scripture, you are breaking the very law you are trying to lay upon others. Now as far as your offense at my manners, i would ask you to look at your own post, even this one has insults and accusations laced thoughtout it! Do you not see your own hypocricy?

I'm not in the mood to go back and cut and paste your posts. It won't do any good, you have already condemned me. I cited what you wrote and I did not see any Scriptural citations, so I thought it was merely a doctrinal pronouncement by yourself : "the law is not of faith".

Well, some laws ARE of faith, so I cited Abraham as an example, and spoke briefly of the law of grace, which existed before Abraham. That is when you jumped on me and called me names???

I apologize for any misunderstandings on my part, but calling me a liar, hypocrite, etc.? Really? Is that your brand of Christianity or just you? Even citing the Pharisee who exalted himself didn't seem to have any effect on you. I didn't come back here to listen to immature Christians call me names and drag me back down to my old ways. I know who I am and don't need that temptation. So I think I will gracefully withdraw from our discussions. My spirituality is more important to me than "being right" by using any means available.

Regards

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The law is not of faith. You are CUT OFF from Christ, you who seek to be justified by the law, you have fallen from grace.

I'm assuming you're responding to Ryan's post. If so, why is what Ryan said to be understood as the attempt to be justified by the law? Why can't obedience ever be legitimate works of faith? Why does the desire to be obedient always equate to a desire to be justified by law and not a desire to please God through the faith we have in him?

This kind of thinking has destroyed the church in the eyes of the world and made us the hypocrites we're sure we're not--we talk a good talk but you can't see it in what we do because we're convinced that would be 'keeping the law', the damnable offense of trying to be justified by our obedience.

This heresy started way back in the early church not too long after the time of the Apostles. Thanks to the misguided, spiritless leadership of the early church 'law' became the four letter word of the faith, yet Paul plainly says right in his sermon about justification by faith apart from works that we uphold (satisfy, fulfill) the requirements of the law through the faith that justifies apart from the law (Romans 3:31).

The church seems to major in heretical extremes of doctrine and can't seem to see the truth that sits right in the middle of those knee-jerk extremes.

 

[francisdesales]

All that scripture says to me is that a born again person can sin and sin badly. They will come to wish that they hadn't, the Lord will discipline them and it will not be pleasant. The shame of a repentant heart is a painful experience.

Yes, he can sin badly, but I don't see any regret there. The dog has returned to the vomit. That is not repentance, Deborah. Also, continue reading carefully: For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

Now, that is not the sort of thing that would indicate that he REMAINED "saved". For being saved is a relationship with Christ. How could one remain in such a relationship if IT WAS BETTER THAT THEY NEVER HAD SUCH A RELATIONSHIP? To ME, that says "it's over". There is no relationship with Christ - at that time - if 'it would be better had they NEVER had a relationship'.

Regards