Some of the serious NT warnings to the churches

[Sparkey]

We are all directed to follow after Christ, who fulfilled the law. How can the lawless claim to do thus? Of course the law serves to carry us to Jesus, who alone may forgive us and to whom we are told to confess so that He may be faithful and JUST to forgive, cleanse and purge of all unrighteousness. The thing that he can not, will not, do is lead the unwilling.

Oops, I didn't mean to sound like I was addressing any one person in particular (except, of course, myself). That's the nature of preaching, but I trust you already know this.

First where there is no law, there is no transgression.
Also who is "lawless" but those who claim to keep a law but are breakers of that law?
And this is Pauls point over and over that those who claim to keep the law of Moses are always breakers of it.
Then he goes on to explain that we have entered into a new and better agreement COVENANT! not like the OLD!

the law of the Spirit of life in Christ has set us free from the law of sin and death.

A believer is under the law of faith and love, thats it!
NOTHING PROFITS ANYTHING BUT FAITH WORKING BY LOVE.

What? Did it sound like I was trying to argue with somebody here? That was not my intent.

I was addressing lawlessness. Isa 3:5-8; Gal 5:13,14; 2Pet 2:10-19; Jude 8-13; Deut 12:8; Judg 17:6;21:25 I was addressing those who subordinate God to their own desires and fail to adhere to the Greatest Commandment (law), that we love God with our whole hearts, whole minds, and with all our strength. The second, about loving others, is also a law and is similar to the first. These are not my words, but they do echo the words found in Deuteronomy 6:5.

 

[Deborah13]

I'm assuming you're responding to Ryan's post. If so, why is what Ryan said to be understood as the attempt to be justified by the law? Why can't obedience ever be legitimate works of faith? Why does the desire to be obedient always equate to a desire to be justified by law and not a desire to please God through the faith we have in him?

This kind of thinking has destroyed the church in the eyes of the world and made us the hypocrites we're sure we're not--we talk a good talk but you can't see it in what we do because we're convinced that would be 'keeping the law', the damnable offense of trying to be justified by our obedience.

This heresy started way back in the early church not too long after the time of the Apostles. Thanks to the misguided, spiritless leadership of the early church 'law' became the four letter word of the faith, yet Paul plainly says right in his sermon about justification by faith apart from works that we uphold (satisfy, fulfill) the requirements of the law through the faith that justifies apart from the law (Romans 3:31).

The church seems to major in heretical extremes of doctrine and can't seem to see the truth that sits right in the middle of those knee-jerk extremes.

Jethro, I'm going to have to ask you to back up what you just said, please. What denominations or churches do you see doing this?
? "the church is failing because they are afraid of being accused of being lawkeepers? And this started way back when?

 

[Mitspa]

What? Did it sound like I was trying to argue with somebody here? That was not my intent.

I was addressing lawlessness. Isa 3:5-8; Gal 5:13,14; 2Pet 2:10-19; Jude 8-13; Deut 12:8; Judg 17:6;21:25 I was addressing those who subordinate God to their own desires.

i did not take it that way, but those who would lay the yoke of the law of moses, often use the term "lawless" to justify their doctrines, when in fact it is those who claim to keep the law of moses, who are lawless.
Oh God in His Great wisdom has confounded the wise and has caught them in their own craftiness. Let the weak say I am strong! Let those who would exalt themselves be humbled unto the Cross!

 

[Sparkey]

i did not take it that way, but those who would lay the yoke of the law of moses, often use the term "lawless" to justify their doctrines, when in fact it is those who claim to keep the law of moses, who are lawless.
Oh God in His Great wisdom has confounded the wise and has caught them in their own craftiness. Let the weak say I am strong! Let those who would exalt themselves be humbled unto the Cross!

So it seems that you would like to argue for a balance in these things. I have no problem with that.

 

[Deborah13]

God bless you Deb! And when we get to heaven I know I will be giving you a huge hug.

Me, too.

 

[gr8grace]

And so no one can brag. Praise the Lord for His divine mercy. Let us not be presumptuous and continue to call upon His mercy.

Regards

Hello,

I read through a thread,"how secure are we in Christ?" I would be curious what you thought of some of those teachings?

If you had time or wanted too? I am familiar with those teachings and with my discernment I can not explain them away.

 

[Deborah13]

It's hard to ignore, isn't it?

Ryan, the Jews had a book of life, maybe still do. When they were born their name went in the book and was removed when they died.

There has not been a definitive answer in my opinion as to when one's name goes into the Lamb's Book of Life. It may be at actual birth and not blotted out until their judgment and depend then on their position in Christ. IN or OUT

 

[jasoncran]

uhm that book of life is the same idea. remember that the book of revalation is chock full of jewish imagery. the book of life had names that could be blotted out in the tanach and in the new testament or brit chadosh. its one of them oral traditions that the jews had that are found in canon.

 

[John Zain]

I was saved by God's grace embodied in the blood of Christ
which I accessed by believing (trusting) in that blood through the gift of faith.

Since you are going back to square one ... and I've lost track of the 500+ posts ...

Are you saying ...
Because God gave you the gift of faith (via His grace), you were then enabled to believe?
Perhaps a YES or a NO will be enough. Thanks.

 

[John Zain]

"What could entice someone to abandon the faith they have in Christ?"
I can think of two possibilities outside of the two you listed:
1) love of the world, and
2) not being willing to pay the costs of discipleship as they learn about and encounter those costs after professing faith in Christ.

This is way beyond the scope of most Christians who have been deceived
by being taught OSAS and/or being in easy-believism Laodicean churches!

 

[Mitspa]

So it seems that you would like to argue for a balance in these things. I have no problem with that.

Well Kinda I guess?
But what I am saying is that those who are under the law of moses, always see terms like "lawless" as transgression of the law of moses.
But God has so formed His word that those who are so dishonest as to judge others by a standard they do not keep, that these very terms are hidden from them.
Like the "way of righteousness" in 2 Pet Now when one who is under law, sees this scripture they think in terms of the righteousness of the law. But it is not! It is the righteousness of faith! And these same people who would warn others with this scripture, are the very ones who have transgressed its truth. So those who judge others by law are blinded by their own dishonest heart! Thus 2 Cor 3
And God in His wisdom have caught them in their own dishonest hearts. This is the "unrighteousness" of scripture, "Unjust" because there hearts are not honest enough to admit they cannot keep the law. This is why Paul said, "you who preach the law, do you not hear the law" If they really honored the law, they would died to the law. They would never judge another mans flesh. Again God in His wisdom has caught the hypocrite and will judge him as he has judged other.
For be careful with what judgment you judge, because with that same judgement it will be mete back to you.

So those who look to judge the sin in others and have not died to the law, are in BIG TROUBLE on the great and terrible day of the Lord!

 

[Deborah13]

Yes, he can sin badly, but I don't see any regret there. The dog has returned to the vomit. That is not repentance, Deborah. Also, continue reading carefully: For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

Now, that is not the sort of thing that would indicate that he REMAINED "saved". For being saved is a relationship with Christ. How could one remain in such a relationship if IT WAS BETTER THAT THEY NEVER HAD SUCH A RELATIONSHIP? To ME, that says "it's over". There is no relationship with Christ - at that time - if 'it would be better had they NEVER had a relationship'.Regards

IMO, and in this case truly humble...not one of my strong points so I need to be careful, so to have a true debate on the subject I SHOULD bow out so as to not misrepresent the doctrine itself and I am not Calvinist so I see things a little differently.

LOL, IMHO we are BOTH wrong and I am just as guilty as you for reading out of context. Look who it refers to that they are like and the description of what they do. Leading others away themselves....these are false prophets and/or false christians. They have learned the way of righteousness but I dare say they have not put it on. I see these as those who come into the church, hear the word but never accept it. They don't stay very long, they don't desire to.
Tried it out and decided it was not for them they like their old life better. Once their postion was that of the not knowing, now the postion has changed to one who has heard. We can only pray for these types of people that their position will change again from just knowing to receiving. JMO

 

[Sparkey]

Well Kinda I guess?
But what I am saying is that those who are under the law of moses, always see terms like "lawless" as transgression of the law of moses.
But God has so formed His word that those who are so dishonest as to judge others by a standard they do not keep, that these very terms are hidden from them.
Like the "way of righteousness" in 2 Pet Now when one who is under law, sees this scripture they think in terms of the righteousness of the law. But it is not! It is the righteousness of faith! And these same people who would warn others with this scripture, are the very ones who have transgressed its truth. So those who judge others by law are blinded by their own dishonest heart! Thus 2 Cor 3
And God in His wisdom have caught them in their own dishonest hearts. This is the "unrighteousness" of scripture, "Unjust" because there hearts are not honest enough to admit they cannot keep the law. This is why Paul said, "you who preach the law, do you not hear the law" If they really honored the law, they would died to the law. They would never judge another mans flesh. Again God in His wisdom has caught the hypocrite and will judge him as he has judged other.
For be careful with what judgment you judge, because with that same judgement it will be mete back to you.

So those who look to judge the sin in others and have not died to the law, are in BIG TROUBLE on the great and terrible day of the Lord!

I've seen error that may be traced back to over-generalization of groups of people before. There is another class of error that comes when we speak in terms of absolutes or extremes, as in "always" or "never". But then again, you already know of this.

 

[John Zain]

I hear you saying that only unbelievers struggle with temptations to worldliness and, therefore,
the many exhortations and warnings in the Bible are for them, not for real believers.
I wish that were true, but temptation and the possibility of failure
are a normal and expected part of every Christian's life.

Thanks for reminding everyone about the long forgotten OP.

Now, don't panic everyone ...
I'm not trying to cram ALL of those many WARNINGS down your throats!

I'm simply asking ... What are they all about? ... Why are they in our NTs?

Don't you think it's about time to face reality?

Any and all possible reasons shall be accepted for consideration.

 

[Mitspa]

I've seen error that may be traced back to over-generalization of groups of people before. There is another class of error that comes when we speak in terms of absolutes or extremes, as in "always" or "never". But then again, you already know of this.

Well I accept that what I am saying is hard to understand. Who is unjust but those who judge others by a standard they do not keep? Now what I have posted I have been taught By God, I am a true minister of God. The ministry of His righteousness see 2 Cor 3.
Now I would just ask that you would consider what I have said and pray about it, If God does not confirm it, then you should count me as a false teacher. But if He does and your eyes are opened, remember to lift me up to Him who exalts the humble.

 

[John Zain]

really so a man can pray to the lord save me and he is saved if he never goes to church,
never read the bible? only if its sincere enough?
yes God honors that prayer but they should be taught the word.

Many of the heartiest greetings, old friend ...

Jesus said to go into all the world, preach the gospel, and make disciples!

 

[iLOVE]

really so a man can pray to the lord save me and he is saved if he never goes to church, never read the bible?only if its sincere enough?yes God honors that prayer but they should be taught the word.

Understand when we were born-again God now lives in us. To address your statement this is what the word of God has said, "if we are faithless, he will remain faithful, for he cannot disown himself". 2 Timothy 2:13 - This is why the Lord says, "I call those things that aren't as though they already were". God is able to look beyond today, and see our tomorrows! He looks beyond our faults because He lives in us, He's for us, and He loves us.

 

[Mitspa]

Funny how those who have received such mercy from God, cannot allow that God would give that same mercy to others?
Why is that? Because at some point they have been deceived into thinking that they have somehow earned from God that which He has given them. There hearts have been corrupted from the simplicty of Christ. That as one has received Him they must walk in Him. Now of us did anything to receive Him.
Nor was there any sin that held back His salvation. So we are to walk in this knowledge. Anytime we allow the thought in our heart that we have earned salvation to any degree, we have fallen into error. It is this defiled conscience that looks to judge others. Comparing yourselves with others is a fruit of a defiled conscience. To look to say others are unsaved is a sin! To look to find a reason to unsave another christains is to walk as a pharisee. This is a great sin against Christ and His Work.

 

[jasoncran]

Understand when we were born-again God now lives in us. To address your statement this is what the word of God has said, "if we are faithless, he will remain faithful, for he cannot disown himself". 2 Timothy 2:13 - This why the Lord says, "I call those things that aren't as though they already were". God is able to look beyond today, and see our tomorrows! He looks beyond our faults because He lives in us, He's for us, and He loves us.

yes but, so many teach the word that way and the person never shows up at any church to be disciple. when I repented I wanted to learn. so I read the bible and few in the church then actually taught me. I asked the lord for the most of the stuff I know. down the years the lord has lead to me peeps that taught me.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

The question of "how" is answered. No man may serve two masters. Because of the Grace of One Master, it may look, for a moment, that this isn't the case. Don't kid yourself (not you, TND - using the plural "you" here), none may serve two. We are slaves to whomever we present our members to. Consider what happens in secret and know the secret of hiding the good things that we are involved in because all such thing will be revealed. Either to the glory or to the shame of those who do them. I think differently here. Who is it that does not secretly have sin?

IF we confess our sins and IF we continue in Him we shall be saved. That becomes an impossibility for those whose hearts have been removed from grace (so they are turned over to their own lusts). Good news for those of us who have experienced such things is that the motivation of God remains the same, not of punishment, but of allowing the pain that comes from the choice to depart from Him to be seen and known and felt, and hopefully the person who reaches the bottom (and for each person, that bottom level is different, he says while remembering and chuckling to himself that he is speaking to an addictions counselor) may stand aghast when they see where they are (eating with the swine) and return to the feast prepared for him by his Loving Father who is desiring only to kill the fatted calf in celebration of His son who was dead and has now returned. . o O ("Even my father's servants are treated better than this!") At least, that's how I read things.

What say you?

Serving two masters is something the Christian is quite capable of doing, and, as you say, that service to the dark master of sin may look like "lost salvation" to some, but God knows the heart, knows the man/woman in that condition of split loyalties may seem to have forsaken Christ, but the important thing for us as "fruit inspectors" to remember is that He never forsakes us. That is hard for some to grasp, that His love is not dependent on how we act, only on how we believe. A true, faithful, sincere confession is never negated by sin. The relationship resulting from such a confession suffers under sin, but is instantly and fully restored with another true confession, not of the need for salvation, but of Godly sorrow due to that sin and a desire to repent (metanoeo, turn away) and be restored.