Some of the serious NT warnings to the churches

[francisdesales]

I'm assuming you're responding to Ryan's post. If so, why is what Ryan said to be understood as the attempt to be justified by the law? Why can't obedience ever be legitimate works of faith? Why does the desire to be obedient always equate to a desire to be justified by law and not a desire to please God through the faith we have in him?

This kind of thinking has destroyed the church in the eyes of the world and made us the hypocrites we're sure we're not--we talk a good talk but you can't see it in what we do because we're convinced that would be 'keeping the law', the damnable offense of trying to be justified by our obedience.

This heresy started way back in the early church not too long after the time of the Apostles. Thanks to the misguided, spiritless leadership of the early church 'law' became the four letter word of the faith, yet Paul plainly says right in his sermon about justification by faith apart from works that we uphold (satisfy, fulfill) the requirements of the law through the faith that justifies apart from the law (Romans 3:31).

The church seems to major in heretical extremes of doctrine and can't seem to see the truth that sits right in the middle of those knee-jerk extremes.

That was a good post. There is no need to provide a false dichotomy between faith and works, for the Bible very clearly tells us we need both. Every work is not necessarily an act that is based upon "one's own righteousness". A major Pauline theme is "IN Christ". In Christ, I can do all. That is why we were created - but people often forget to finish the Ephesians 2:9-10 citation...

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Mitspa, thank you for responding.
I can assure you that at least for me when I got saved, even though I did not believe in eternal security, I felt His love, He blessed me in many ways, and I did manifest the fruit of the Spirit. I was sure it was real then and I am now. But when there are those who say things that have been said today and I am not talking about works people, I'm talking about those of the grace people then it can cause doubt. Because if they say you weren't really saved before and you
when you believed you were how can you be sure you're saved now?
I'm not speaking of you, you're just an odd duck.

Deborah,

There is no need to worry about your past baptism and wonder if it took. That is eternally secure. You know how we can be certain TODAY that we are saved? It is not based upon whether I was "good enough" at that first moment of salvation... That would place the entire event in doubt any time you faltered! You KNOW you are in Christ as you are obeying the commandments. John says this over and over in his first epistle. "Without me, you can do nothing"...worthy of salvation. So as we are obeying the commandments of God, we can be certain that Christ is in us, because we CANNOT obey the commandments willingly without the abiding presence of God within us.

Regards

 

[farouk]

I think the point being is that the unchanged and habitually sinful demonstrate a lack of the new birth in their experience (whatever they may profess) rather than some supposed idea that the new birth in itself isn't enough, or that one can be saved today and lost tomorrow, supposedly.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

That was a good post. There is no need to provide a false dichotomy between faith and works, for the Bible very clearly tells us we need both. Every work is not necessarily an act that is based upon "one's own righteousness". A major Pauline theme is "IN Christ". In Christ, I can do all. That is why we were created - but people often forget to finish the Ephesians 2:9-10 citation...

Regards

"...created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." (vs. 10)

Excellent!

 

[francisdesales]

Thanks, and thanks for your posts.

Peter wrote that some people twists Paul's writing to their destruction. If we believe that the Word of God is inspired, we cannot set parts of the Bible against other parts. James said works are ALSO important to salvation - he even says we are NOT saved by faith alone. In addition, Paul says faith without works of love is worthless (1 Cor 13:3, I believe). So it is good that many Christians do understand that "works" is not a four letter word to be opposed to faith. For without love, I am nothing! And love is most certainly an exterior work based upon the Lord working within us to move our will and desire (Phil 2:12-13). It is for such deeds that the Lord says will be the basis of our judgment and eternal destiny (Matt 25)

Regards

 

[Sparkey]

I've read that God called each of us "while we were yet in sin".

 

[francisdesales]

I think the point being is that the unchanged and habitually sinful demonstrate a lack of the new birth in their experience (whatever they may profess) rather than some supposed idea that the new birth in itself isn't enough, or that one can be saved today and lost tomorrow, supposedly.

Ok,

Many people (like St. Paul) see "being saved" as an ongoing act, IN ADDITION to that one time moment. Being saved, to these, is more a relationship with God, rather than a "driving license" or "passport" to get into heaven. And is in all relationships, we go through moments where we separate ourselves from the other. Fortunately, in the case of our relationship with God, He is CONSTANTLY calling us back, to repent and re-establish that relationship.

Farouk, to me, this sums up the entire question, my one liner from Scriptures:

He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life 1 John 5:12

Who has the Son?

he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us 1 John 3:24

Those who obey the commandments are clearly showing that Christ abides in them. They have eternal life. Nothing done, well or badly, 20 years ago during that baptism has any bearing on today's obedience/disobedience. No need to rebaptize over and over.

Regards

 

[farouk]

Sparrowhawke: Ephesians 2 says the believer was born again without any human merit, 'even when we were dead in sins'.

Blessings.

 

[francisdesales]

I've read that God called each of us "while we were yet in sin".

And so no one can brag. Praise the Lord for His divine mercy. Let us not be presumptuous and continue to call upon His mercy.

Regards

 

[Mitspa]

I'm not in the mood to go back and cut and paste your posts. It won't do any good, you have already condemned me. I cited what you wrote and I did not see any Scriptural citations, so I thought it was merely a doctrinal pronouncement by yourself : "the law is not of faith".

Well, some laws ARE of faith, so I cited Abraham as an example, and spoke briefly of the law of grace, which existed before Abraham. That is when you jumped on me and called me names???

I apologize for any misunderstandings on my part, but calling me a liar, hypocrite, etc.? Really? Is that your brand of Christianity or just you? Even citing the Pharisee who exalted himself didn't seem to have any effect on you. I didn't come back here to listen to immature Christians call me names and drag me back down to my old ways. I know who I am and don't need that temptation. So I think I will gracefully withdraw from our discussions. My spirituality is more important to me than "being right" by using any means available.

Regards

So you presume to teach and warn others? but you are unaware of this most evident and important scripture?

Like I said, some of you who think to teach others should be teaching yourself.

 

[Sparkey]

And so no one can brag. Praise the Lord for His divine mercy. Let us not be presumptuous and continue to call upon His mercy.

Regards

You have put your finger rightly upon the struggle that I continually face. I agree, the Grace of the Lord Most High, can be frustrated and we are warned against acting in such a way. With the promise, comes the power and I need, need, the support of the saints each day. Thank you, Francis de Sales, or if I may, I've read what childseye said and would like to see you continue here, supported and upheld by your brothers and sisters in our Most Holy faith.

I have called for the Judgment of God in my life and have seen how He works for righteousness in all. Today I do call for Mercy and plan to do so until such time as we see each other "face to face". Hope remains yet Love is greater.

 

[Mitspa]

I'm assuming you're responding to Ryan's post. If so, why is what Ryan said to be understood as the attempt to be justified by the law? Why can't obedience ever be legitimate works of faith? Why does the desire to be obedient always equate to a desire to be justified by law and not a desire to please God through the faith we have in him?

This kind of thinking has destroyed the church in the eyes of the world and made us the hypocrites we're sure we're not--we talk a good talk but you can't see it in what we do because we're convinced that would be 'keeping the law', the damnable offense of trying to be justified by our obedience.

This heresy started way back in the early church not too long after the time of the Apostles. Thanks to the misguided, spiritless leadership of the early church 'law' became the four letter word of the faith, yet Paul plainly says right in his sermon about justification by faith apart from works that we uphold (satisfy, fulfill) the requirements of the law through the faith that justifies apart from the law (Romans 3:31).

The church seems to major in heretical extremes of doctrine and can't seem to see the truth that sits right in the middle of those knee-jerk extremes.

First, I am very aware that ryan goes about trying to lay the law upon others, the very scriptures he used prove his intentions.

Yes it is a great sin to reject Gods grace and righteousness and go about to establish ones own. Because God said so! He decides what is righteous, and He has decided that no man can be justified by any part of the law of moses, in any way. Nor can any man earn anything from Him except he comes through the Cross and dies to the law and self-effort.

 

[reba]

So you presume to teach and warn others? but you are unaware of this most evident and important scripture?

Like I said, some of you who think to teach others should be teaching yourself.

Which scripture?

 

[Sparkey]

First, I am very aware that ryan goes about trying to lay the law upon others, the very scriptures he used prove his intentions.

Yes it is a great sin to reject Gods grace and righteousness and go about to establish ones own. Because God said so! He decides what is righteous, and He has decided that no man can be justified by any part of the law of moses, in any way. Nor can any man earn anything from Him except he comes through the Cross and dies to the law and self-effort.

We are all directed to follow after Christ, who fulfilled the law. How can the lawless claim to do thus? Of course the law serves to carry us to Jesus, who alone may forgive us and to whom we are told to confess so that He may be faithful and JUST to forgive, cleanse and purge of all unrighteousness. The thing that he can not, will not, do is lead the unwilling.

Oops, I didn't mean to sound like I was addressing any one person in particular (except, of course, myself). That's the nature of preaching, but I trust you already know this.

 

[Mitspa]

Yes, he can sin badly, but I don't see any regret there. The dog has returned to the vomit. That is not repentance, Deborah. Also, continue reading carefully: For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

Now, that is not the sort of thing that would indicate that he REMAINED "saved". For being saved is a relationship with Christ. How could one remain in such a relationship if IT WAS BETTER THAT THEY NEVER HAD SUCH A RELATIONSHIP? To ME, that says "it's over". There is no relationship with Christ - at that time - if 'it would be better had they NEVER had a relationship'.

Regards

What is the "way of righteousness" here is a clue!
That I might be found in Him, NOT HAVING MY OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH IS BY THE LAW but the righteousness of God by faith.

So you see this warning is to those who turn back from Gods righteousness by faith, and go back into the law.
For having been washed (by His Word) they return to wallow in their own flesh.
The law produces sinful desires and hold a person in their sin.

The strength of sin, is the law!

Put it together!

 

[Deborah13]

All that scripture says to me is that a born again person can sin and sin badly. They will come to wish that they hadn't, the Lord will discipline them and it will not be pleasant. The shame of a repentant heart is a painful experience.

IMO, and in this case truly humble...not one of my strong points so I need to be careful, so to have a true debate on the subject I SHOULD bow out so as to not misrepresent the doctrine itself and I am not Calvinist so I see things a little differently.

LOL, IMHO we are BOTH wrong and I am just as guilty as you for reading out of context. Look who it refers to that they are like and the description of what they do. Leading others away themselves....these are false prophets and/or false christians. They have learned the way of righteousness but I dare say they have not put it on. I see these as those who come into the church, hear the word but never accept it. They don't stay very long, they don't desire to.
Tried it out and decided it was not for them they like their old life better. Once their postion was that of the not knowing, now the postion has changed to one who has heard. We can only pray for these types of people that their position will change again from just knowing to receiving. JMO

 

[Mitspa]

Which scripture?

Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith.
Also see; Gal 2:16
Php 3:9
Rom 4:16 and many others! This is the message of the New Testament
Acts 13:39 And BY HIM all that believe are justified FROM ALL THINGS from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.

That no man can be justified by the deeds of the law is evident!

 

[jasoncran]

really so a man can pray to the lord save me and he is saved if he never goes to church, never read the bible?only if its sincere enough?yes God honors that prayer but they should be taught the word.

 

[Deborah13]

Deborah,

There is no need to worry about your past baptism and wonder if it took. That is eternally secure. You know how we can be certain TODAY that we are saved? It is not based upon whether I was "good enough" at that first moment of salvation... That would place the entire event in doubt any time you faltered! You KNOW you are in Christ as you are obeying the commandments. John says this over and over in his first epistle. "Without me, you can do nothing"...worthy of salvation. So as we are obeying the commandments of God, we can be certain that Christ is in us, because we CANNOT obey the commandments willingly without the abiding presence of God within us. Regards

Thank you for your assuring post.
Your kindness is appreciated.

 

[Mitspa]

We are all directed to follow after Christ, who fulfilled the law. How can the lawless claim to do thus? Of course the law serves to carry us to Jesus, who alone may forgive us and to whom we are told to confess so that He may be faithful and JUST to forgive, cleanse and purge of all unrighteousness. The thing that he can not, will not, do is lead the unwilling.

Oops, I didn't mean to sound like I was addressing any one person in particular (except, of course, myself). That's the nature of preaching, but I trust you already know this.

First where there is no law, there is no transgression.
Also who is "lawless" but those who claim to keep a law but are breakers of that law?
And this is Pauls point over and over that those who claim to keep the law of Moses are always breakers of it.
Then he goes on to explain that we have entered into a new and better agreement COVENANT! not like the OLD!

the law of the Spirit of life in Christ has set us free from the law of sin and death.

A believer is under the law of faith and love, thats it!
NOTHING PROFITS ANYTHING BUT FAITH WORKING BY LOVE.