Some Things.. Hard To Be Understood..

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I disagree, these demonic influences work through the flesh as Paul says.. the working of the flesh.. and therefore the actions described are brought forth..

Hard to disagree when I cited no differently. That does not make the flesh evil, but that which operates therein.

Most believers falsely consider themselves as 'immune.' I find no such immunity. The connections of sin to the devil is quite secure in writing.

s

 

[glorydaz]

Eventide, the flesh is not evil. That is a gnostic belief.

Paul's evil present was demonic.

Paul's present "evil" was not demonic.

First Paul explains that the motions of sin work in his members.

For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

Sin dwelleth in me (in my flesh).

Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 18For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.[/color]

We see here this law of sin which is warring against the law of the mind. Sin dwells in the members of the body...not satan or any demonic being.

Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 21I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Not everything can be blamed on satan. He gets way too much credit for our sins. We see the lusts of the flesh, etc. are of the world, and the world "passeth away"...obviously not satan who will burn forever in the lake of fire. Satan merely provides fodder in this world system, and we are drawn away by our own lusts. Much of man's sin comes from within his own heart through lust.

Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

 

[Eventide]

Hard to disagree when I cited no differently. That does not make the flesh evil, but that which operates therein.

You said that the flesh does none of the things described in Gal 5.. that I would disagree with.

 

[smaller]

Paul's present "evil" was not demonic.

Then you are left with 'evil Paul.'

I'll leave it to common sense for you to figure out if the messenger of Satan that Paul admittedly had was 'evil present.'

2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

And if you (falsely) believe Paul never sinned in thought, word or deed, you might glance at these scriptures sometime:

Romans 3:7
For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?

1 John 1:8
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1 John 3:8
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

I would submit it is the pride and arrogance of 'satan' IN believers that keeps them from connecting the matters of their OWN SIN to Satanic origins.

But since that power is exceptionally strong in Satan's BLINDING abilities I expect few believers to even be able to 'fess up' to the facts.

You are welcome to ignore same. It matters not to me if you don't get it because God allows that blindness to come upon believers. It's called the spirit of slumber/stupor and it arrives exactly in this fashion as taught by Jesus:

Mark 4:15
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Every believer who hears their minds say 'this doesn't happen to me' is in fact already being lied to by Satan within and God allows that liar to steal from them and blinds them to open facts. There is nothing anyone can do about it if God has slated them for blindness.

s

 

[smaller]

You said that the flesh does none of the things described in Gal 5.. that I would disagree with.

Sure, if you want to only look at the flesh and totally ignore the demonic impetus you are welcome to do so.

Not my problem that believers can't connect the dots of sin to the devil when it comes to their own sins. That merely shows the existence of spiritual blindness in working effect not allowing that connection to be seen or made within them.

s

 

[Eventide]

Sure, if you want to only look at the flesh and totally ignore the demonic impetus you are welcome to do so.

I'm not totally ignoring anything.. I have already mentioned that I understand and agree that there ARE demonic influences working through the flesh..

Not my problem that believers can't connect the dots of sin to the devil when it comes to their own sins.

Once again, it's a little different to have a fowl land on your head as compared to letting it build a nest there.. people willingly sin according to scripture.. it's not as though they're totally innocent in the matter, if that's what you think.

That merely shows the existence of spiritual blindness in working effect not allowing that connection to be seen or made within them.

s

That I would agree with.

 

[glorydaz]

Then you are left with 'evil Paul.'

I'll leave it to common sense for you to figure out if the messenger of Satan that Paul admittedly had was 'evil present.'

The "evil present" that Paul speaks of in Romans 7 relates to the sins of the flesh.

For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

This is different than the sins of the flesh that Paul was talking about in Romans 7. This is an example of how God works in our lives to keep us humble. He allowed this thorn in the flesh (by a messenger of satan) for a purpose in Paul's life. All things work together for good where the believer is concerned. God allowed it for Paul's benfit.

And if you (falsely) believe Paul never sinned in thought, word or deed, you might glance at these scriptures sometime:

I certainly never said or thought Paul was without sin. That's a false assumption on your part.

I would submit it is the pride and arrogance of 'satan' IN believers that keeps them from connecting the matters of their OWN SIN to Satanic origins.

But since that power is exceptionally strong in Satan's BLINDING abilities I expect few believers to even be able to 'fess up' to the facts.

You are welcome to ignore same. It matters not to me if you don't get it because God allows that blindness to come upon believers. It's called the spirit of slumber/stupor and it arrives exactly in this fashion as taught by Jesus:

Mark 4:15
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Every believer who hears their minds say 'this doesn't happen to me' is in fact already being lied to by Satan within and God allows that liar to steal from them and blinds them to open facts. There is nothing anyone can do about it if God has slated them for blindness.

s

You give satan power over a believer that he doesn't have. Believers certainly don't have satan in us...we have Christ in us. We need only resist satan and he flees. To constantly be saying a believer is blinded by satan is not a fact. If he's blinded you then it's because you've allowed it...you've given him a place. The seeds sown that are "immediately" taken away are those who hear the Word but are NOT SAVED. I see you mixing up scripture all the time...not realizing the difference between the saints and the sinners.

 

[glorydaz]

I'm not totally ignoring anything.. I have already mentioned that I understand and agree that there ARE demonic influences working through the flesh..



Once again, it's a little different to have a fowl land on your head as compared to letting it build a nest there.. people willingly sin according to scripture.. it's not as though they're totally innocent in the matter, if that's what you think.



That I would agree with.

Yep, you can't stop the birds from flying through the air, but you can stop them from building a nest in your hair.

The way I see it is that satan doesn't have to do a thing with the unsaved. The things of the world keep them from seeking God. When they do begin to seek, then satan tries distracting them with the cares of the world and it's lusts. He goes into overdrive when they hear the gospel being preached...putting thoughts of doubt, etc.

His work in the life of a believer is to keep the believer from having a good witness for the Lord. He certainly doesn't enter the believer, for the Holy Spirit is there. His biggest victory comes when he can get someone to pervert the gospel message, and change the Truth into a lie. This is why we must always look to the Word to combat anything that attempts to change it. I've appreciated this thread and your consistancy throughout. Thanks for sticking with it.

 

[smaller]

I certainly never said or thought Paul was without sin. That's a false assumption on your part.

The false assumption on your part is that Paul's sins, whatever they may have been are DISconnected from the devil, the tempter.

They are not. The tempter WAS in Paul, EVIL PRESENT with him just as it is today within 'all' people, belief notwithstanding.

You give satan power over a believer that he doesn't have.

You are welcome to say your sin is not associated to and with the devil. That would be in contradiction of scripture but hey, why would that fact matter?

Believers certainly don't have satan in us...we have Christ in us.

The presence of the tempter puts the tempter IN the hearts/minds of those tempted. There seems to be a 'logic block' in your mind over this fact for some strange reason and you also for some strange reason consider yourself immune from the workings of the tempter.

I am not here to discuss head spinning and vomit spewing, but the fact of operations of evil in all mankind as presented in the scriptures that DO affect how ones views theological matters, particularly hard matters to grasp as this appears to be for you.

We need only resist satan and he flees.

Yeah, except for the next round of temptation. When you are sinless let me know.

To constantly be saying a believer is blinded by satan is not a fact.

Yes it is. Paul saw only in part and as through dark glass. Evil present with him was the REASON he saw that way.

If he's blinded you then it's because you've allowed it...

All were blinded by the god of this world prior to belief and it had zero to do with their allowance.

And all believers SIN regardless of their false claims of not doing so and every one of those sins is connected to the tempter and originator of sin, the devil.

you've given him a place.

Yeah, and your sin is not giving Satan place right? lol with that angle!

The seeds sown that are "immediately" taken away are those who hear the Word but are NOT SAVED. I see you mixing up scripture all the time...not realizing the difference between the saints and the sinners.

ALL are blinded by Satan prior to being saved so claims of immunity are futile.

And when the tempter is in operation in WARRIORS which are on the front lines, they are MORE APT to fall victim, particularly IN DENIAL of the battle.

tag again...

s

 

[glorydaz]

The false assumption on your part is that Paul's sins, whatever they may have been are DISconnected from the devil, the tempter.

They are not. The tempter WAS in Paul, EVIL PRESENT with him just as it is today within 'all' people, belief notwithstanding.


You are welcome to say your sin is not associated to and with the devil. That would be in contradiction of scripture but hey, why would that fact matter?


The presence of the tempter puts the tempter IN the hearts/minds of those tempted. There seems to be a 'logic block' in your mind over this fact for some strange reason and you also for some strange reason consider yourself immune from the workings of the tempter.

I am not here to discuss head spinning and vomit spewing, but the fact of operations of evil in all mankind as presented in the scriptures that DO affect how ones views theological matters, particularly hard matters to grasp as this appears to be for you.


Yeah, except for the next round of temptation. When you are sinless let me know.


Yes it is. Paul saw only in part and as through dark glass. Evil present with him was the REASON he saw that way.



All were blinded by the god of this world prior to belief and it had zero to do with their allowance.

And all believers SIN regardless of their false claims of not doing so and every one of those sins is connected to the tempter and originator of sin, the devil.


Yeah, and your sin is not giving Satan place right? lol with that angle!


ALL are blinded by Satan prior to being saved so claims of immunity are futile.

And when the tempter is in operation in WARRIORS which are on the front lines, they are MORE APT to fall victim, particularly IN DENIAL of the battle.

tag again...

s

You're giving satan power every time you speak.

For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

Are you really unaware of our power over the enemy? Have you not had satan flee when you called on the Lord? This is not just possible for the seventy that were sent out, but for all who are in Christ Jesus.

He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me. And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name. And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you. Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

We are to reckon ourselves dead to sin. Don't you believe what God says...sin has no more dominion over the believer. Our sins have been covered by the blood...now we are sons who are chastened by our Father when we disobey. When we are in Christ, we are no longer sinners, we are saints. We are covered by the righteous robe of Christ, and our sins are remembered no more.

 

[smaller]

You're giving satan power every time you speak.

Oh, so if I believe the scriptures on these matters that's giving Satan power?

LOL!

Are you really unaware of our power over the enemy? Have you not had satan flee when you called on the Lord? This is not just possible for the seventy that were sent out, but for all who are in Christ Jesus.

None of their sins were disconnected from Satan either. In fact speaking truthfully on these matters IS the very power described. I'm not interested in a coverup of facts or eradication of Word regarding these matters.

Satan has always tried to KILL the Word and the TWIST it, particularly as it applies to his workings.

We are to reckon ourselves dead to sin. Don't you believe what God says...sin has no more dominion over the believer.

If the deceiver steals ANY Word or understanding from a persons heart that is A SIN in them caused by Satan and not them. It's a SIN in them regardless.

Same with other forms of tempting thoughts. Those are SINS in MIND caused by the TEMPTER and are in fact 'those persons sins' to 'deal with.' That is the engagement of the believer with the tempter.

Our sins have been covered by the blood...now we are sons who are chastened by our Father when we disobey.

And that same statement did not, does not nor will it EVER avail the tempter in man a thing. So the blanket statements of 'immunity' do not extend to the 'other working' in any believer.

At the same time Paul was under Grace, the EVIL PRESENT with Paul was NOT. And every DAMNATION and CURSE in the text would apply to that EVIL PRESENT with Paul. That is why believers experience TRIBULATION, because of EVIL PRESENT with all of us.

In short, it ain't just us that God is dealing with.

When we are in Christ, we are no longer sinners, we are saints. We are covered by the righteous robe of Christ, and our sins are remembered no more.

You can trumpet all you want on the good side of the ledger. It takes honesty instilled in the heart by God in Christ to come to terms with the other side of the ledgers. Until that happens most believers remain under the spirit of slumber that God has placed upon their minds regarding the facts of temptation and deception, thinking themselves as entirely A-OK in Christ and all by themselves when in fact evil present has masked it's presence within them.

enjoy!

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[glorydaz]

You can trumpet all you want on the good side of the ledger. It takes honesty instilled in the heart by God in Christ to come to terms with the other side of the ledgers. Until that happens most believers remain under the spirit of slumber that God has placed upon their minds regarding the facts of temptation and deception, thinking themselves as entirely A-OK in Christ and all by themselves when in fact evil present has masked it's presence within them.

enjoy!

smaller

I guess you must be very special to see that most believers are under this spirit of slumber.

Perhaps pride is your own personal thorn in the flesh, because you're preaching something you cannot support from the Word of God. Greater is He that is in the believer than he that is in the world. You give satan more power than he has. Resist the devil and he will FLEE from you. He doesn't just saunter away...he flees. Instead of worrying about all these so called "slumbering believers", you should try what we do and RESIST HIM....HE WILL FLEE.

 

[smaller]

I guess you must be very special to see that most believers are under this spirit of slumber.

It would appear so when basic facts of scripture cannot be grasped or seen eh?

Perhaps pride is your own personal thorn in the flesh, because you're preaching something you cannot support from the Word of God.

Look, you are welcome to engage in the attempt to eliminate the scriptures presented in this matter on a reasoned factual basis. Otherwise this discussion is at it's end from your end, being unable to engage.

You have my sympathy.

enjoy!

s

 

[glorydaz]

It would appear so when basic facts of scripture cannot be grasped or seen eh?



Look, you are welcome to engage in the attempt to eliminate the scriptures presented in this matter on a reasoned factual basis. Otherwise this discussion is at it's end from your end, being unable to engage.

You have my sympathy.

enjoy!

s

No sympathy required. I am perfectly able...for God is faithful.

There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

 

[childeye]

This was written by Justin Martyr: second apology of Justin for the Christians addressed to the Roman senate, chapter five:

But if this idea take possession of some one that if we acknowledge God as our helper, we should not act as we say, be oppressed and persecuted by the wicked; this too I will solve. God, when He made the whole world, and subjected things earthly to man, and arranged the heavenly elements for the increase of fruits and rotation of the seasons, and appointed this divine law- for these things also He evidently made for man-committed the care of men and of all things under heaven to angels whom He appointed over them. But the angels transgressed this appointment and were captivated by love of women, and begat children who are those that are called demons; and besides, they afterwards subdued the human race to them selves, partly by magical writings, and partly by fears and the punishments in need after they were enslaved by lustful passions;and among men they sowed murders, wars, adulteries, intemperate deeds, and all wickedness. Whence also the poets and mythologists, not knowing that it was the angels and those demons who had been begotten by them that did these things to men, and women, and cities, and nations, which they related, ascribed them to God Himself, and to those who were accounted to be his very offspring, and to the offspring of those who were called his brothers, Neptune and Pluto, and to the children again of those offspring. For whatever name each of the angels had given to himself and his children, by that name they called them.

Some here would say Justin Martyr gives the devil too much power. But as Jesus said, the Truth will set you free.
​

 

[glorydaz]

This was written by Justin Martyr: second apology of Justin for the Christians addressed to the Roman senate, chapter five:

But if this idea take possession of some one that if we acknowledge God as our helper, we should not act as we say, be oppressed and persecuted by the wicked; this too I will solve. God, when He made the whole world, and subjected things earthly to man, and arranged the heavenly elements for the increase of fruits and rotation of the seasons, and appointed this divine law- for these things also He evidently made for man-committed the care of men and of all things under heaven to angels whom He appointed over them. But the angels transgressed this appointment and were captivated by love of women, and begat children who are those that are called demons; and besides, they afterwards subdued the human race to them selves, partly by magical writings, and partly by fears and the punishments in need after they were enslaved by lustful passions;and among men they sowed murders, wars, adulteries, intemperate deeds, and all wickedness. Whence also the poets and mythologists, not knowing that it was the angels and those demons who had been begotten by them that did these things to men, and women, and cities, and nations, which they related, ascribed them to God Himself, and to those who were accounted to be his very offspring, and to the offspring of those who were called his brothers, Neptune and Pluto, and to the children again of those offspring. For whatever name each of the angels had given to himself and his children, by that name they called them.

Some here would say Justin Martyr gives the devil too much power. But as Jesus said, the Truth will set you free.
​

Let's hope everyone will see the error contained in the above post.

The sons of God are Seth's descendants. The daughters of men are Cain's descendants. I've given the scripture already, and you keep on posting this. For what? To give satan more glory? You can bet he loves seeing this.

"Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do. Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned: From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling; Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm." (1 Tim. 1:4-7)

 

[smaller]

No sympathy required. I am perfectly able...for God is faithful.

Originally Posted by 1 Cor. 10:13
There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Case in point...

s

 

[glorydaz]

Originally Posted by 1 Cor. 10:13
There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Case in point...

s

That verse says, Who WILL NOT suffer you to be tempted above what you are able, AND will make a way of escape. That's a promise from God, which is why we need not have a spirit of fear. We have power over satan through Christ Jesus.


Yes, and when I'm tempted to eat more than my body requires ( or demands), the Lord causes me to glance up and see my reflection in the mirror, and I utilize my muscles to push away from the table.

Or, when I'm tempted to take something from a store because of the lust of the eyes, the Spirit (or conscience, as the case may be,) says, "Don't do it....it's wrong," I listen and walk away.

Or, when I'm tempted to rebuke other believers about their failures, through spiritual pride or the pride of life, the Lord is faithful in His chastisement, and I'll make a fool of myself where everyone can see.

Or, when I'm really tempted to react in the flesh when posting on this forum, the Lord reminds me of the delete button.

You've just gotta love the Lord. He is greater than the pull of the flesh. He is greater than the pull of the world. And he is greater than any LIAR who can only whisper in your ear or toss a few fiery darts that are easily deflected by the Word of God.

 

[smaller]

That verse says, Who WILL NOT suffer you to be tempted above what you are able, AND will make a way of escape. That's a promise from God, which is why we need not have a spirit of fear. We have power over satan through Christ Jesus.


Yes, and when I'm tempted to eat more than my body requires ( or demands), the Lord causes me to glance up and see my reflection in the mirror, and I utilize my muscles to push away from the table.

Or, when I'm tempted to take something from a store because of the lust of the eyes, the Spirit (or conscience, as the case may be,) says, "Don't do it....it's wrong," I listen and walk away.

Or, when I'm tempted to rebuke other believers about their failures, through spiritual pride or the pride of life, the Lord is faithful in His chastisement, and I'll make a fool of myself where everyone can see.

Or, when I'm really tempted to react in the flesh when posting on this forum, the Lord reminds me of the delete button.

You've just gotta love the Lord. He is greater than the pull of the flesh. He is greater than the pull of the world. And he is greater than any LIAR who can only whisper in your ear or toss a few fiery darts that are easily deflected by the Word of God.

It was noted a ways up in this thread that 'most' will not be able to grasp the subject matter.

Thanks for being a case in point!

[ http://www.christianforums.net/f17/some-things-hard-understood-38729/index12.html ] Post #173

s

 

[Eventide]

Perhaps shifting gears again might be interesting..

What are your thoughts on this verse from Paul's letter to the Corinthian church...

Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.