Some Things.. Hard To Be Understood..

[childeye]

Does anyone see the old man and the new man as something different than what I have stated above ?

I think you said it well. I would add that we become whatever image of God we believe in, hence the mind of Christ or the New man sees God as on the bottom and a servant of all while the mind of the devil or the Old man sees God on the top getting to tell everyone else what to do.

 

[jasoncran]

i would comment or add the rapture and end times to this thread but we have enough of those threads.:D

so i will rather go into the idea of the healing promise

so say that God promises us healing and victory over all sickness while others say god does heal but he does allow us to die from sickness and gave no promise that he would heal us.

i am of the later.

 

[glorydaz]

I think you said it well. I would add that we become whatever image of God we believe in, hence the mind of Christ or the New man sees God as on the bottom and a servant of all while the mind of the devil or the Old man sees God on the top getting to tell everyone else what to do.

The new man sees God as on the bottom...a servant of all?

The old man is the mind of the devil...with God on top?

I see it a little differently.

We have three enemies, the world the flesh and the devil.
The world and the devil are external to man.

The flesh is ever present.
We're not to walk after the flesh, make provision for it, fulfill it's lusts, and put no confidence in it.

I'm not sure why you give so much power to the devil. He has no need to bother with the unsaved because they are kept busy catering to the flesh. Satan, as the god of this world sytem, just keeps the world's plate full of sex, money, and drugs. He doesn't have to bother with the unsaved since they keep very busy on their own.

Satan comes into play when we begin looking to the Lord. He does everything he can to distract us, then he puts all the roadblocks in the believers' lives to keep them from following the Lord as they should. We need only resist and He flees. Satan was defeated at the cross....he's already lost and he knows it. I'm not sure why so many people continue to give him more power than he has. Our old man of flesh has much more influence than satan does.

Oh, and the new man has God on top.
The old man has the flesh on top.

 

[Former Christian]

Reba

2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.


So also,

Colossians 3:
1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
6 For which things’ sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.
8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

FC

 

[Former Christian]

Eventide

“A nice segue perhaps into yet another thing which might be hard to understand..
POSITIONALLY in Christ WE are DEAD and our life is hid with God in CHRIST.. who IS our LIFE.. and yet Paul also mentioned that he beat his flesh into submission etc... because we still deal with the flesh in a PRACTICAL sense..
I am crucified with Christ nevertheless I live, yet NOT I, but CHRIST liveth in me.â€

Strange how this would seem to you to be something hard to be understood even though you had the simplifying answer within your grasp.

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

and

Galatians 5:
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

And also Col 3:1-11.

All references KJV

FC

 

[Eventide]

i would comment or add the rapture and end times to this thread but we have enough of those threads.:D

Yeah, plenty of those threads going around. I have shared some opinion on that here in this thread.

so i will rather go into the idea of the healing promise

so say that God promises us healing and victory over all sickness while others say god does heal but he does allow us to die from sickness and gave no promise that he would heal us.

i am of the later.

A topic which many are passionate about for sure.. although I think that this falls within the same context as the old man... God is not making him better.. the flesh profits nothing.. The Spirit of Christ in us should be our hope of glory, not our flesh being healed.. although that very well can happen in certain situations.

 

[Eventide]

Christ in you..

How about Christ in you...

Is that something difficult to understand..?

I think that many people get the idea that God is making them better rather than having Christ in them.. and it can't get any better than that.. having CHRIST in you.

 

[Eventide]

Our hope of glory...

This is why you and I (or any other person in Adam) are not the elect...

He is the elect and we are the elect IN HIM.. because we're members of HIS BODY and we were baptized into that one body by His Spirit.. that is when we become the elect of God in Christ.. because we have Christ (the elect)...

IN US..

As for us, our old man.. we're told to put him off because he is corrupt according to deceitful lusts..

This is perhaps one of the largest misconceptions in theology today.. as affirmed in the seemingly limitless threads which speak of the elect, as if it's us and Christ rather than Christ in us.

 

[glorydaz]

Re: Our hope of glory...

This is why you and I (or any other person in Adam) are not the elect...

He is the elect and we are the elect IN HIM.. because we're members of HIS BODY and we were baptized into that one body by His Spirit.. that is when we become the elect of God in Christ.. because we have Christ (the elect)...

IN US..

As for us, our old man.. we're told to put him off because he is corrupt according to deceitful lusts..

This is perhaps one of the largest misconceptions in theology today.. as affirmed in the seemingly limitless threads which speak of the elect, as if it's us and Christ rather than Christ in us.

Amen, brother.

 

[Eventide]

Re: Our hope of glory...

Amen, brother.

And yet when we read many of the threads here in CF, most seem to refer to themselves as the elect rather than Christ in us as the elect.

 

[glorydaz]

Re: Our hope of glory...

And yet when we read many of the threads here in CF, most seem to refer to themselves as the elect rather than Christ in us as the elect.

That's because they take scripture, like Romans 9, and think God is speaking of individuals (Jacob and Esau) when He is really talking about nations. I keep hearing "Jacob have I loved and Esau have I hated." They neglect the whole Word when they reach their conclusions. We see here where the individual is addressed. This was, of course, after Esau sold his birthright.

By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.

The individual Esau never did serve Jacob.
So, they're just mixing up nations with individuals.

 

[Eventide]

Re: Our hope of glory...

That's because they take scripture, like Romans 9, and think God is speaking of individuals (Jacob and Esau) when He is really talking about nations. I keep hearing "Jacob have I loved and Esau have I hated." They neglect the whole Word when they reach their conclusions. We see here where the individual is addressed. This was, of course, after Esau sold his birthright.

I agree.. Romans 9 is often taken out of its context (the nation of Israel) and applied to individual salvation..

The individual Esau never did serve Jacob.
So, they're just mixing up nations with individuals.

Yup,

AND... Malachi was written hundreds of years after Esau lived his life.

 

[smaller]

Romans 9 is a personal observation by Paul about himself and about 'man' individually and 'how' God created all of us individually:

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:


It is one of the most sorely twisted pieces of scripture within theology.


Want to see Paul's vessel of dishonour? Romans 9 is merely an extension of Paul's own condition that was described in Romans 7:


21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

Right there is your decipher for Romans 9's vessels!

But because this 'vessel of dishonour' is factually within everyone they can NOT see this matter 'personally' because that other vessel will not allow them to see the fact, even though it's right in front of all of our noses.

See if you can put yer glasses on?

Paul goes on with this dissection of Israel in Romans 11 AGAIN...

8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

Once seen this is a fairly simple matter. But, the big BUT, is that if you can not see this GOD has in fact put that spirit of SLUMBER upon...

YOU...

and there is nothing anyone can do about that to make you see as it is SPIRITUAL BLINDNESS that GOD Himself has brought upon YOU.

enjoy!

smaller

 

[Eventide]

Romans 9 is a personal observation by Paul about himself and about 'man' individually and 'how' God created all of us individually:

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:


It is one of the most sorely twisted pieces of scripture within theology.


Want to see Paul's vessel of dishonour? Romans 9 is merely an extension of Paul's own condition that was described in Romans 7:


21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

Right there is your decipher for Romans 9's vessels!

But because this 'vessel of dishonour' is factually within everyone they can NOT see this matter 'personally' because that other vessel will not allow them to see the fact, even though it's right in front of all of our noses.

See if you can put yer glasses on?

Paul goes on with this dissection of Israel in Romans 11 AGAIN...

8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

Once seen this is a fairly simple matter. But, the big BUT, is that if you can not see this GOD has in fact put that spirit of SLUMBER upon...

YOU...

and there is nothing anyone can do about that to make you see as it is SPIRITUAL BLINDNESS that GOD Himself has brought upon YOU.

enjoy!

smaller

While I believe that the dominant theme in Romans 9-11 is the nation of Israel, I have often gleaned something very similar to what you're speaking of here.. and that every one of us IS a vessel of dishonour, and if they're born again, then also a vessel of honour.. even within the same lump of clay.

I think that this could be in part what election's purpose is said to be.. "The Elder serving the Younger".. and that's exactly what we find in a Christian life.. a dual nature.. the flesh and the Spirit.. with the flesh coming first (the elder) and the Spirit afterwards.. the younger.

We're to put off the old man (elder) and put on the Lord Jesus Christ (younger), even within the same lump of clay.

I'll certainly agree that every last one of us in Adam IS a vessel of dishonour.. even AFTER we're saved.. the old doesn't get any better, and the new doesn't need to get any better.. for He (Christ in us) is already perfect.

 

[glorydaz]

Romans 9 is a personal observation by Paul about himself and about 'man' individually and 'how' God created all of us individually:

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:


It is one of the most sorely twisted pieces of scripture within theology.


Want to see Paul's vessel of dishonour? Romans 9 is merely an extension of Paul's own condition that was described in Romans 7:


21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

Right there is your decipher for Romans 9's vessels!

But because this 'vessel of dishonour' is factually within everyone they can NOT see this matter 'personally' because that other vessel will not allow them to see the fact, even though it's right in front of all of our noses.

See if you can put yer glasses on?

Paul goes on with this dissection of Israel in Romans 11 AGAIN...

8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

Once seen this is a fairly simple matter. But, the big BUT, is that if you can not see this GOD has in fact put that spirit of SLUMBER upon...

YOU...

and there is nothing anyone can do about that to make you see as it is SPIRITUAL BLINDNESS that GOD Himself has brought upon YOU.

enjoy!

smaller

Romans chapters 9-11 were written for the Jews, to made clear why the word of God had not failed..."taken none effect(Rom. 9:6)

Romans 7, on the other hand, speaks of the state of the carnal man. The "evil is present with me" is the flesh. These two portions of scripture have nothing to do with each other. The blindness you speak of in Romans 9-11 was directly in relation to the nation of Israel, as are the potter references. It's not the same "blindness" that is provided by the world's attractions which cater to man's lusts and pride.

I have no problem with someone considering an analogy to man's condition by way of the potter, but it needs, at least, to be in agreement with all the OT texts when trying to give it a meaning for us today. It makes for some error filled doctrines to take such verses out of their context.

 

[smaller]

While I believe that the dominant theme in Romans 9-11 is the nation of Israel, I have often gleaned something very similar to what you're speaking of here.. and that every one of us IS a vessel of dishonour, and if they're born again, then also a vessel of honour.. even within the same lump of clay.

I think that this could be in part what election's purpose is said to be.. "The Elder serving the Younger".. and that's exactly what we find in a Christian life.. a dual nature.. the flesh and the Spirit.. with the flesh coming first (the elder) and the Spirit afterwards.. the younger.

We're to put off the old man (elder) and put on the Lord Jesus Christ (younger), even within the same lump of clay.

I'll certainly agree that every last one of us in Adam IS a vessel of dishonour.. even AFTER we're saved.. the old doesn't get any better, and the new doesn't need to get any better.. for He (Christ in us) is already perfect.

Eventide, the flesh is not evil. That is a gnostic belief.

Paul's evil present was demonic.

s

 

[Eventide]

Eventide, the flesh is not evil. That is a gnostic belief.

Paul's evil present was demonic.

s

I'm not sure if the flesh is evil or not.. although I think that it's clear from scripture that all in Adam (flesh) are under condemnation and that all men in Adam may be justified freely by faith in the Last Adam, the Lord Jesus Christ.

I think that Paul also makes it clear as to what the flesh does..

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[Eventide]

The Elder shall serve the Younger...

I also think that the first Adam (Flesh) and the Last Adam (Spirit) are further exemplified for us in scripture by Abraham's two sons.. Ishmael and Isaac..

Ishmael came first (the elder) through the bondwoman Hagar by means of the flesh and Isaac (the younger) was born supernaturally by God's promise, after Sarah was beyond child bearing age.

Abraham asked that Ishmael might live before the LORD, although the LORD told him that His covenant would be through Isaac, the child of promise.. and this is why I believe we are children of promise today.. because of that promise in us, within these frail earthen vessels, even our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

 

[smaller]

I'm not sure if the flesh is evil or not..

Orthodoxy rightfully debunked and renounced that view, if you are familiar with the lines of theological reasonings applied.

although I think that it's clear from scripture that all in Adam (flesh) are under condemnation and that all men in Adam may be justified freely by faith in the Last Adam, the Lord Jesus Christ.

Paul taught about 'the flesh.' It is 'not' our battle nor the things we battle with. He did in the same stretch (again) isolate the matters, demonic:

Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

I think that Paul also makes it clear as to what the flesh does..

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

The flesh does none of those things. The impetus is lust, the cause of lust, again, demonic influences within the person that are not of the person.

You are welcome not to look.

s

 

[Eventide]

Orthodoxy rightfully debunked and renounced that view, if you are familiar with the lines of theological reasonings applied.

I wouldn't pretend to know all of what goes on between the flesh and the Spirit although I know from scripture that they're at enmity with one another and contrary to one another.. and that the flesh is condemned in us.. as once again, all in Adam are under condemnation.

Paul taught about 'the flesh.' It is 'not' our battle nor the things we battle with. He did in the same stretch (again) isolate the matters, demonic:

Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

The flesh does none of those things. The impetus is lust, the cause of lust, again, demonic influences within the person that are not of the person.

I disagree, these demonic influences work through the flesh as Paul says.. the working of the flesh.. and therefore the actions described are brought forth..

Like I mentioned before.. There's a significant difference between a fowl landing on your head versus allowing it to build a nest there..

You are welcome not to look.

s

Once again, excellent commentary imo.. it's a deep topic no doubt and once again, I wouldn't claim to fully understand all that it entails.