Some Things.. Hard To Be Understood..

[glorydaz]

The Day of the Lord... The Day of Jesus Christ...

Perhaps a thing hard to be understood.. and that could be largely in part because it most directly involves the nation of Israel... many OT prophecies speak of the Day of the Lord within the context of Israel.. and I believe Paul does as well.

The church of God in Thess struggled with the notion that THAT DAY had already come, and Paul speaks of it in his letters to that church. He says that it shall come as a thief in the night, as travail upon a woman with child...

Where else might we see a woman with child with respect to the Day of the Lord.. or with respect to things which shall be hereafter..?

Can we see that Day approaching...?

Peter admonishes us to be not ignorant of this one thing.. that a DAY with the LORD is as a thousand years.. and so where might we find supporting scripture which speaks to a thousand years with the LORD.. ?

As an aside, I'd like to mention that "thousand" was used frequently in the Old Testament to communicate the idea of utter completeness, to the highest degree, or utmost amount.

For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills.

If we did the math on this one, the Day of the Lord wouldn't come for another 36,000 years, and I don't think we're anywhere near that far away.

Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;

Anyway, I'm guessing you're talking Rev. when we see a woman with child.

And, yes, I think the Day of the Lord is fast approaching.

 

[Eventide]

LOL I could give you a few..

LOL and yet you haven't...

What might these good points be concerning Amillennialism..?

 

[glorydaz]

LOL and yet you haven't...

What might these good points be concerning Amillennialism..?

That brought a good chuckle....but you might not want to get me started. I will say, IMO, there is a great deal of merit there for consideration. Probably the main point of contention for some would be that satan was bound by the work of the cross....meaning he cannot keep the Gospel from going out...not that he cannot do anything. The church age is the 1000 years spoken of in Rev., and then satan will be loosed for a short time to empower the antichrist before the Lord's return. The 1000 year reign on earth is the church age that is already going on. When the Lord returns Judgment comes.

 

[Eventide]

things which are... and things which shall be hereafter...

That brought a good chuckle....but you might not want to get me started. I will say, IMO, there is a great deal of merit there for consideration. Probably the main point of contention for some would be that satan was bound by the work of the cross....meaning he cannot keep the Gospel from going out...not that he cannot do anything.

Well, considering the fact that Rev 20 speaks of Satan being bound for a very specific purpose... and that being so that the NATIONS ARE NOT DECEIVED... should be a no brainer imo..

The church age is the 1000 years spoken of in Rev., and then satan will be loosed for a short time to empower the antichrist before the Lord's return. The 1000 year reign on earth is the church age that is already going on. When the Lord returns Judgment comes.

Couple things here..

The church of God is well spoken of in the book of Revelation within chapters 2-3.. and these chapters pertain to the things which are... ie, this present time.. THEN.. chapters 4-22 pertain to the things which shall be hereafter.. ie, the future.. after the things which are..

Not only that.. but Rev 19 is CLEARLY a future prophecy as it details the marriage of the Lamb to His wife (the church) and the coming of Christ with His saints... and IT (Rev 19) is contextually tied to Rev 20, demanding that it too is within a future context.

 

[glorydaz]

Re: things which are... and things which shall be hereafter...

Well, considering the fact that Rev 20 speaks of Satan being bound for a very specific purpose... and that being so that the NATIONS ARE NOT DECEIVED... should be a no brainer imo..



Couple things here..

The church of God is well spoken of in the book of Revelation within chapters 2-3.. and these chapters pertain to the things which are... ie, this present time.. THEN.. chapters 4-22 pertain to the things which shall be hereafter.. ie, the future.. after the things which are..

Not only that.. but Rev 19 is CLEARLY a future prophecy as it details the marriage of the Lamb to His wife (the church) and the coming of Christ with His saints... and IT (Rev 19) is contextually tied to Rev 20, demanding that it too is within a future context.

And what keeps the nations from being deceived if not the Gospel that is preached during the church age?

If one assumes Revelation is written chronologically, you have a point. If that's true, however, then the earth comes to the point of destruction five different times. Rather, John is looking at different aspects of the same event (The Day of the Lord). Not all can be future after the point you speak of since it refers to the time Christ came and Herod attempted to kill Him before He went to the cross. John actually refers to past present and future throughout the book.

 

[Eventide]

As travail upon a woman with child...

And what keeps the nations from being deceived if not the Gospel that is preached during the church age?

There are specific references written to the church of God which speak of the god of this world blinding the minds of those who believe not the glorious gospel of Christ, and that we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but rather against principalities and powers, against the RULERS OF THE DARKNESS OF THIS WORLD.. etc..

Paul tells us that the god of this world has blinded some.. James tells us to resist the devil and he will flee from us.. John tells us that the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one.. Peter tells us that he lurks as a lion seeking whom he may devour.. and we're supposed to believe that he is bound and not deceiving the nations any longer.. ? ?

This is why I say imo it's a no brainer. Satan is the god of this present evil world and the true God is calling men OUT of it.. to not be a part of it.. Christ told us that His kingdom is not yet of this world.. although it will be when Rev 11:15 comes to pass and the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our God and of His Christ..

If one assumes Revelation is written chronologically, you have a point. If that's true, however, then the earth comes to the point of destruction five different times. Rather, John is looking at different aspects of the same event (The Day of the Lord). Not all can be future after the point you speak of since it refers to the time Christ came and Herod attempted to kill Him before He went to the cross. John actually refers to past present and future throughout the book.

We don't need to assume anything.. John is told to write of the things which he has seen, of the things which are, and of the things which shall be hereafter, and that is specifically laid out for us in the book.

I often used to think that Rev 12 was a 'past' event... although it's not, it's a future event concerning the nation of Israel in the time of the end.. Daniel 12 aligns perfectly with it. Rev 12 imo is speaking of the nation of Israel being born again, and then protected in the wilderness for a period of time (~3.5 years or 1260 days etc)... its context is clearly Israel.. and Paul tells us that THAT DAY (the Day of the LORD) shall come as travail upon a woman (Israel) with child.. And that's Christ..

Can a nation be born in a day... YES.. and all Israel shall be saved in that Day.. the Day of the Lord, the Day of Jesus Christ.

.02

 

[glorydaz]

Re: As travail upon a woman with child...

There are specific references written to the church of God which speak of the god of this world blinding the minds of those who believe not the glorious gospel of Christ, and that we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but rather against principalities and powers, against the RULERS OF THE DARKNESS OF THIS WORLD.. etc..

Paul tells us that the god of this world has blinded some.. James tells us to resist the devil and he will flee from us.. John tells us that the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one.. Peter tells us that he lurks as a lion seeking whom he may devour.. and we're supposed to believe that he is bound and not deceiving the nations any longer.. ? ?

This is why I say imo it's a no brainer. Satan is the god of this present evil world and the true God is calling men OUT of it.. to not be a part of it.. Christ told us that His kingdom is not yet of this world.. although it will be when Rev 11:15 comes to pass and the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our God and of His Christ..



We don't need to assume anything.. John is told to write of the things which he has seen, of the things which are, and of the things which shall be hereafter, and that is specifically laid out for us in the book.

I often used to think that Rev 12 was a 'past' event... although it's not, it's a future event concerning the nation of Israel in the time of the end.. Daniel 12 aligns perfectly with it. Rev 12 imo is speaking of the nation of Israel being born again, and then protected in the wilderness for a period of time (~3.5 years or 1260 days etc)... its context is clearly Israel.. and Paul tells us that THAT DAY (the Day of the LORD) shall come as travail upon a woman (Israel) with child.. And that's Christ..

Can a nation be born in a day... YES.. and all Israel shall be saved in that Day.. the Day of the Lord, the Day of Jesus Christ.

.02

The book is a revelation of Jesus Christ, and John is to write the things which he has seen, which are, and what is to come. I really hate to debate the book of Revelation, because I know there are many believers who see different aspects. I believe there are parts that are too specific to what has happened in the past to say it's all the future, and I could go into those if need be.

"Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;"

Individuals have always been deceived. It's only when the Gospel stops being preached that the nations will be deceived. When "he that withholdeth" is taken away (2 Thess. 2:6).....No one seems to be sure what is holding back satan from setting up the antichrist, but it's obvious something is. Being bound does not necessarily mean satan can do nothing. It does mean he is kept from doing everything he is capable of. When he is loosed at the time of the antichrist, we will see things that are not possible at this time and realize that satan's powers have been curtailed until the those end days when he is loosed.

 

[Eventide]

The night is far spent.. the DAY is at hand...

I really hate to debate the book of Revelation, because I know there are many believers who see different aspects.

It's fine to simply discuss these things and not feel as though it's a debate to be won or lost etc. With a book like the Revelation, there are bound to be many ideas flying around in the minds of those who consider its message..

It's interesting to note that the Revelation itself is often thought of as the Unveiling of Jesus Christ.. as King of kings and Lord of lords.. ie, Christ coming again and sitting upon the throne of His glory in Jerusalem, the city of the great King.. when the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our God and of His Christ.. in that Day.. the Day of the Lord, the Day of Jesus Christ...

And He shall be King over all the earth in that Day..

And as Paul tells us.. the night is far spent.. the Day is at hand.. and yes, we certainly can see it approaching.

 

[Eventide]

Jacob wrestled with God all night.. and in the morning the Sun rose upon him...

To me it's amazing that the New Testament (written primarily to the church of God) closes with the Bright and Morning Star appearing.. (and that is seen just before the Day).. whereas the Old Testament (written primarily to the Israel of God) closes with the Sun of Righteousness arising with healing in His wings..

Perhaps another thing hard to be understood... Paul's infamous chapter in 1 Thess 4 pertaining to the church of God meeting the Lord in the air.. aka the rapture..

 

[glorydaz]

Re: The night is far spent.. the DAY is at hand...

It's fine to simply discuss these things and not feel as though it's a debate to be won or lost etc. With a book like the Revelation, there are bound to be many ideas flying around in the minds of those who consider its message..

It's interesting to note that the Revelation itself is often thought of as the Unveiling of Jesus Christ.. as King of kings and Lord of lords.. ie, Christ coming again and sitting upon the throne of His glory in Jerusalem, the city of the great King.. when the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our God and of His Christ.. in that Day.. the Day of the Lord, the Day of Jesus Christ...

And He shall be King over all the earth in that Day..

And as Paul tells us.. the night is far spent.. the Day is at hand.. and yes, we certainly can see it approaching.

Amen, and one day we'll see clearly what all of it means.

 

[glorydaz]

Re: Jacob wrestled with God all night.. and in the morning the Sun rose upon him...

To me it's amazing that the New Testament (written primarily to the church of God) closes with the Bright and Morning Star appearing.. (and that is seen just before the Day).. whereas the Old Testament (written primarily to the Israel of God) closes with the Sun of Righteousness arising with healing in His wings..

Perhaps another thing hard to be understood... Paul's infamous chapter in 1 Thess 4 pertaining to the church of God meeting the Lord in the air.. aka the rapture..

There's another subject that isn't quite as clear as many think. I'm quite sure the Lord will gather His Bride...the WHEN of it is another story.

 

[Sparkey]

smaller,

IMO just about every born again Christian would understand that there is deception all around us because of the rulers of the darkness of this world.. although my question to you is this..

Do you believe that the gospel itself is powerless to remove this deception and to transform a person from darkness to light ?

Pardon me for referencing a post from so early in the conversation but the question about the power of the gospel may need to be readdressed. Consider the question in the light of the command to be Holy because God is Holy.

The power of the Good News is found in the fact that due to the sacrifice of the only Son we can now be like Him. Those who continue toward the Light and do not fall back shall be saved.

 

[Sparkey]

The fact that Paul struggled with sin and sought God in order to be given the victory over sin but was told, "My Grace..." does not convince that the struggle should be abandoned (Paul was told directly but never told there was no finish line for the race we run). Jesus told us simply that we should be perfect, "you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect" (Matt. 5:48).

Peter spoke of "some things... hard to be understood." Things that Paul had said and that unlearned men struggled against and wrestled with (as they do with all scripture) unto their own destruction.

If, in the end, it turns out that we were offered completeness and an end to the struggle but we refused? If we continued in sin because we had no hope in the promise? What then?

 

[Eventide]

If, in the end, it turns out that we were offered completeness and an end to the struggle but we refused? If we continued in sin because we had no hope in the promise? What then?

So what are you saying, that you don't struggle with sin and people need to be perfectly sinless ?

 

[Eventide]

..how ye ought to walk and to please God...

There's another subject that isn't quite as clear as many think. I'm quite sure the Lord will gather His Bride...the WHEN of it is another story.

Yes, the rapture of the church of God, or whatever we wish to call it... is a biblical fact.. it's the when (or timing) that is usually debated..

So consider when the Bright and Morning star appears... is it before the DAY ? During the DAY, after the DAY..?

Also, notice how Paul begins the 4th chapter of 1 Thess... which speaks of the rapture of the church..

Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.

Where else might we read of someone who walked with God and pleased God in the scriptures...?

And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him. (Gen 5)

By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. (Heb 11)

Interesting isn't it... Enoch walked with God and pleased God, and God took him before the flood... Paul in his infamous chapter of 1 Thess 4 begins by speaking of how we ought to walk and please God..

Coincidence..?

 

[Eventide]

A Thief in the Night...

For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

What does a thief do..?

A thief steals something that is precious...

When does it happen, in the day or in the night..?

When does the bridegroom come..?

Interesting stuff to say the least..

 

[MarkT]

And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To Him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

Peter (the Apostle to the Circumcision, or Jews) writes in his 2nd Epistle concerning some of Paul's (the Apostle to the Gentiles) writings.. and mentions that some things are hard to be understood..

What are some of the things which you think that Peter is referring to..?

The immediate context is His coming, and His longsuffering.. as well as the Day of the Lord and the judgment to come..

I often think that this is referring to the mystery pertaining to Israel, seeing that Peter is the Apostle to the Jews.. although Peter also writes of making our calling and election sure in the first chapter of this epistle.. so it could be these things as well perhaps..

There's also a serious consequence of mis-applying Paul's words, and that some do this to their own destruction.. serious indeed..

So what are your thoughts on some things hard to be understood ?

It's hard to understand why this is so hard to understand. Peter did not say Paul's writing was hard to understand. What he said was, 'no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation', and in that context, he was saying some things in scripture are hard to understand. The prophecies that belong to the scriptures come from the scriptures. They can be found in the scriptures. And what are the scriptures? They are the same writings Jesus quoted from. The prophets are the prophets Jesus named. And what are the prophecies? They are the prophecies the prophets made concerning the last days Peter is talking about.

Look at 2 Peter 1, 2 Peter 2, 2 Peter 3; Peter is talking about the predictions made by the prophets - the predictions of the last days. He said he was writing to us (I say 'us' because he is writing to the church) to remind us of the predictions made by the holy prophets and the commandments of our Lord. The predictions of the prophets are in the scriptures.

Paul's writings are not scripture. They obviously reflect his understanding of scripture. As Peter said, 'Paul wrote according to the wisdom given to him' - wisdom to understand. It's takes wisdom to understand the words of God that have come to us through the prophets. It takes the Spirit. So what does Peter say? Peter says Paul wrote about those things too, meaning the predictions.

The ignorant twist the predictions of the last days. Not all scripture is prediction of course. The law is found in the scriptures. The proverbs are there. The history of man is there. The history of Israel of course.

Bottom line, this is what is hard to understand for those who have no understanding: Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, etc.

 

[Sparkey]

So what are you saying, that you don't struggle with sin and people need to be perfectly sinless ?

I am not your Lord and God, why try to change the subject to my condition? It could be because you are actually struggling with the meaning of my words or it could be because you do understand but don't want to reply directly and in simple English to what I'm saying. Paul was a highly educated man but Peter spoke with plain speech.

I am saying that the Bible is perfectly clear. There is no possibility of darkness co-existing with light. We are called to be holy. Our Lord is a refining fire. It is his purpose to remove all offense so that the truth of the promise, "though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow," is seen and experienced. I'm saying this isn't pie in the sky.

 

[Eventide]

Paul's writings are not scripture..

Not sure if I ever heard this one before... that Paul's writings are not scripture...

What makes you say this ?

 

[Eventide]

Can a man serve two masters ?

Perhaps another thing hard to be understood is the very nature of the CHRISTian life.. or should I say the dual nature of the Christian life...

Paul describes two men existing within the same lump of clay, what Paul also refers to as our earthen vessel.

The OLD MAN.. and the NEW MAN..

It's important to understand WHO these two men represent in Paul's writings. We know that we are to put off the old man who is corrupt according to deceitful lusts, and to put on the new man that is created in righteousness and true holiness. Paul also writes in Romans that we are to put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and to make no provision for the flesh.

I think that the scriptures make it clear that our old man is none other than who we are in our Adamic nature according to the flesh.. and that the new man is none other than the Spirit of Christ within us.. who Paul calls the Last Adam, or the second man.

Essentially, the gospel of God concerning His Son is the ultimate in ultimatums... seek to save our own life which is already condemned, or lose it for Christ and the gospel and save it..

Can a man serve two masters ?