Some Won't Get Saved

[Edward]

Luke 8:13 states, by Jesus, that THEY FELL AWAY.
WHAT did those persons that believed for a while FALL AWAY from?

They must have fallen away from something that they had...
then they fell away from it and had it no more.

Don't you think what they fell away from was their faith?

1 Timothy 4:1 Paul speaks about departing (falling away) from the faith.

Hebrews 3:12 says we can fall away from the living God.

2 Peter 3:17 says we can fall away from our own steadfastness.

I've always been of the mind that this is to, fall into unbelief. It doesn't mean to not have faith anymore, it means because they stop acting on their faith. The original language requires an act of the flesh. Thus, belief is to walk in it. I have faith in the Lord and believe it so walk in it.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Luke 8:13 states, by Jesus, that THEY FELL AWAY.
WHAT did those persons that believed for a while FALL AWAY from?

They must have fallen away from something that they had...
then they fell away from it and had it no more.

Don't you think what they fell away from was their faith?

1 Timothy 4:1 Paul speaks about departing (falling away) from the faith.

Hebrews 3:12 says we can fall away from the living God.

2 Peter 3:17 says we can fall away from our own steadfastne

There is no wickedness is the saving grace of God.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I don't know what you mean....

Do you walk away and say too bad?
Do you use the opportunity to share the gospel?
What do you do?
Only you know what you do.
You don't have to share that here.
My question is to reach deep inside of you and ask "what do you do"?

 

[GodsGrace]

I've always been of the mind that this is to, fall into unbelief. It doesn't mean to not have faith anymore, it means because they stop acting on their faith. The original language requires an act of the flesh. Thus, belief is to walk in it. I have faith in the Lord and believe it so walk in it.

I'm not sure I understand....
If I don't have belief in God anymore...
do I still have faith?
What is faith but belief in someone/something.

 

[GodsGrace]

Do you walk away and say too bad?
Do you use the opportunity to share the gospel?
What do you do?
Only you know what you do.
You don't have to share that here.
My question is to reach deep inside of you and ask "what do you do"?

I told you what I do in post no. 269.

 

[Butch5]

We don't seem to be on the same page here. I was talking about when Jesus said it is finished and the far reaching implications of that and it's significance in our lives.

And you seem to totally dismiss that and gloss over it to talk about the resurrection. Yes it is true that if the resurrection had never happened then faith is vain and salvation a lie. But it did happen. So where are you going with this?
Are you saying Jesus was wrong? It wasnt finished yet?
The 2ns coming of Christ hasn't happened yet, but Jesus said, it is finished. Did He lie?
No He did not. The 2nd Coming is not what Jesus was focus upon when He said it is finished. The same is true about the resurrection. We still need the resurrection. We still need the 2nd coming. Those are talked about on the next page, lol. Turn the page.

As I said, I was simply pointing out that whatever we say is speculation. Am I saying Jesus was wrong? No. I'm saying maybe we don't know what He meant. You seem to believe you know what He meant, but He didn't say He meant. That leaves only speculation.

When I asked what is finished, this is what you replied,

"Everything that Jesus and the Father needed to do in order to make it possible for man's redemption, The blood was shed, the price paid, every blessing, every provision that man would ever need."

Every provision wasn't finished at that point. Again, my only point was to point out that we're speculating.

 

[Butch5]

Hi Butch and Edward

I'm reading along and you both seem to be right.
I don't understand what the thin red line is.....

Jesus finished the work the Father sent Him to do....
Be the final revelation of God.
Be the final sacrifice and thus end the sacrificial system.
Be our Lord, and we learn through Him.

I had a thread on this some time ago...

It Is Finished...​

• Thread starterwondering
• Start dateJan 30, 2019
• Tagsthe cross

It was in THEOLOGY.

As to the resurrection:

The death of Christ was foreseen in the O.T. and is our atonement...
The resurrection testifies to the fact that Jesus was indeed the Savior.

Both were necessary.

My only point was that we are speculating.

 

[GodsGrace]

My only point was that we are speculating.

But is it based on facts we know?
IOW
Is it speculating, or is it gleaning?
What else could it have meant?
Got any ideas?

 

[Butch5]

But is it based on facts we know?
IOW
Is it speculating, or is it gleaning?
What else could it have meant?
Got any ideas?

I hesitate to say. I don't really like to speculate. There are a lot of things it could have meant.

 

[Edward]

I'm not sure I understand....
If I don't have belief in God anymore...
do I still have faith?
What is faith but belief in someone/something.

Faith is seated in your spirit. Belief is seated in your flesh.

Flesh is where mind/will/emotions are. They must come into agreement with your spirit (faith) before mountains can be tossed into the sea.

Jesus said He could not do many miracles because of their unbelief (Matthew 13:58).

Now think about going out in your driveway and picking the front end of your car off the ground with only your bare hands. Can you do it?

Now think about the females who have lifted cars off the ground by themselves to free their child who is pinned underneath it, and they do it. At that moment, their mind will & emotions are all running high and in total agreement that the car needs to go up, save the child! And their spirit certainly wants to save the child, so they are in agreement...and faith flows.

That's the difference. Lord, help our unbelief. We shouldn't have to be facing death before our spirit & flesh come into agreement. Even in the Gospel of Thomas it says
(48) Jesus said: If two make peace with one another in this one house, they will say to the mountain: Be removed, and it will be removed.../

That's what this is talking about. The spirit and flesh coming into agreement. Faith is in the spirit, belief is in the flesh.
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works...!!/

 

[Edward]

As I said, I was simply pointing out that whatever we say is speculation. Am I saying Jesus was wrong? No. I'm saying maybe we don't know what He meant. You seem to believe you know what He meant, but He didn't say He meant. That leaves only speculation.

When I asked what is finished, this is what you replied,

"Everything that Jesus and the Father needed to do in order to make it possible for man's redemption, The blood was shed, the price paid, every blessing, every provision that man would ever need."

Every provision wasn't finished at that point. Again, my only point was to point out that we're speculating.

That's cool. I'm trying to keep it simple and not get overly complicated because t'd be liable to become all convoluted and confusing. Simple is always better I think.

 

[Butch5]

That's cool. I'm trying to keep it simple and not get overly complicated because t'd be liable to become all convoluted and confusing. Simple is always better I think.

That's cool.

 

[Randy]

But is it based on facts we know?
IOW
Is it speculating, or is it gleaning?
What else could it have meant?
Got any ideas?

John 17:4
I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do.

 

[GodsGrace]

John 17:4
I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do.

I agree with you.
When Jesus said IT IS FINISHED, I believe He meant that the work God sent Him to do was now done.
There was nothing left to do.
God revealed Himself in many ways,,,,now He revealed Himself by sending HIMSELF to earth in the incarnation of the Son, Jesus,
there is not further revelation that will help in knowing God.

I understand Butch5 in stating that we cannot be 100% sure what Jesus meant since it is not explained.
I just believe that by knowing the story of the O.T. and N.T. we can glean what He probably meant.

 

[GodsGrace]

Faith is seated in your spirit. Belief is seated in your flesh.

Flesh is where mind/will/emotions are. They must come into agreement with your spirit (faith) before mountains can be tossed into the sea.

Jesus said He could not do many miracles because of their unbelief (Matthew 13:58).

Now think about going out in your driveway and picking the front end of your car off the ground with only your bare hands. Can you do it?

Now think about the females who have lifted cars off the ground by themselves to free their child who is pinned underneath it, and they do it. At that moment, their mind will & emotions are all running high and in total agreement that the car needs to go up, save the child! And their spirit certainly wants to save the child, so they are in agreement...and faith flows.

That's the difference. Lord, help our unbelief. We shouldn't have to be facing death before our spirit & flesh come into agreement. Even in the Gospel of Thomas it says
(48) Jesus said: If two make peace with one another in this one house, they will say to the mountain: Be removed, and it will be removed.../

That's what this is talking about. The spirit and flesh coming into agreement. Faith is in the spirit, belief is in the flesh.
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works...!!/

Great post Ed !
I've never heard this before but it makes a lot of sense.
It reminds me of how the spirit is supposed to affect the soul if we're really following Jesus.

 

[GodsGrace]

I hesitate to say. I don't really like to speculate. There are a lot of things it could have meant.

I agree that it's dangerous to speculate.
If this is how you feel about one of Jesus' last words IT IS FINISHED...
then I respect you for it.

How do you feel about MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?
??

 

[Butch5]

I agree that it's dangerous to speculate.
If this is how you feel about one of Jesus' last words IT IS FINISHED...
then I respect you for it.

How do you feel about MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?
??

Just what He said.

<To the chief Musician upon Aijeleth Shahar, A Psalm of David.> My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?
2 O my God, I cry in the daytime, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.
3 But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.
4 Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.
5 They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.
6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
7 All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
8 He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.
9 But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.
10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.
11 Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.
12 Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.
13 They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.
14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
19 But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me.
20 Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.
21 Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.
22 I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.
23 Ye that fear the LORD, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel.
24 For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.
25 My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him.
26 The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.
27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
28 For the kingdom is the LORD'S: and he is the governor among the nations.
29 All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.
30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.
31 They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this. (Ps. 22:1-31 KJV)

 

[GodsGrace]

Just what He said.

<To the chief Musician upon Aijeleth Shahar, A Psalm of David.> My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?
2 O my God, I cry in the daytime, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.
3 But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.
4 Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.
5 They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.
6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
7 All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
8 He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.
9 But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.
10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.
11 Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.
12 Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.
13 They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.
14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
19 But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me.
20 Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.
21 Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.
22 I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.
23 Ye that fear the LORD, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel.
24 For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.
25 My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him.
26 The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.
27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
28 For the kingdom is the LORD'S: and he is the governor among the nations.
29 All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.
30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.
31 They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this. (Ps. 22:1-31 KJV)

Yes.
And happily, it ends on a positive note.

But can we be sure Jesus was repeating this Psalm?

Maybe He felt totally abandoned by God?

Maybe He felt abandoned by the Jews who were His brethren and to whom He was sent?

Maybe it was that moment when the sins of the world fell upon Him and God Father distanced Himself?

No way to be sure here either.

 

[Butch5]

Yes.
And happily, it ends on a positive note.

But can we be sure Jesus was repeating this Psalm?

Maybe He felt totally abandoned by God?

Maybe He felt abandoned by the Jews who were His brethren and to whom He was sent?

Maybe it was that moment when the sins of the world fell upon Him and God Father distanced Himself?

No way to be sure here either.

I think since what David prophesied was actually taking place it's a pretty good chance that Jesus was showing them the psalm. When Jesus said that it should have sent chills down the spine of every Jew there. The leaders knew that psalm and the very events in that psalm were taking place before their eyes.

 

[GodsGrace]

I think since what David prophesied was actually taking place it's a pretty good chance that Jesus was showing them the psalm. When Jesus said that it should have sent chills down the spine of every Jew there. The leaders knew that psalm and the very events in that psalm were taking place before their eyes.

I agree.
But I think it's the same as what one might say about IT IS FINISHED. (That it's based on info we have).

I'm not arguing about this because I agree that we should not assume anything in the written word...sometimes we just can't be 100% sure.